Wanna better sound with the tri-axis?

[soundpurist]

You should give a try to an Evidence instrument cable. My Friend just bought the Melody cable for his Tri-axis/GX700/2:90 rig (pup= Dsonic). When i heard that :shock: I was simply stunned! It sound so clear, without any muddiness and the bass is so tight! I never thought a tri-axis could sound so good!

 

[FastRedPonyCar]

I know I know... I'm wanting to redo all the connections in my rack with the lyric 6" patch cables. I'd need 6 of them though.. 8 if I get the DBX rack EQ... that'd be $150 for 6 of them... retarded prices but it's one of the best cables evAr.

It's either that or the much more affordable lava cable kit.

 

[soundpurist]

I know I know... I'm wanting to redo all the connections in my rack with the lyric 6" patch cables. I'd need 6 of them though.. 8 if I get the DBX rack EQ... that'd be $150 for 6 of them... retarded prices but it's one of the best cables evAr.

It's either that or the much more affordable lava cable kit.

You got it lavacable is the best! For the patch cable you don't need high end cable give a call to Mark at Lavacable he's very helpful. Check this out too:

http://www.lavacable.com/Suitability_Guide.htm

 

[FastRedPonyCar]

yeah I was asking mark a few questions (as well as other forumites over at thegearpage) basically asking if it would TRULY be worth it to use the EA cables over the lava ELC kit becuase I could get the ELC kit with a few extra connectors for about $40 less but i mean... for $40, I wouldn't mind tossing out an extra $40 to not have to make the cables and know I'm getting a top shelf patch cable.

 

[Gregwor]

Please excuse my ignorance here... cause I haven't had the luxury of playing on such high end cables.. but is there a TON of noticeable difference? Like.... the audience could hear a difference type of thing? Or is it more worth it to just ensure that I have a fresh set of strings on my guitar hahaha

I have a tube tester here at work and I've tried the tubes that barely read any Gm versus ones that read super high and tonally, I hear nothing. Dead strings on the other hand makes a ton of difference.

It's just a lot of money to be throwing at something that might tighten a little bottom end... I dunno. Just want legit opinions rather than what someone read on some internet site... like.. oh the JJ tubes sound so much better than sovteks.... blah blah.

Ex: my buddy bought the Zakk Wylde reissue 800 loaded with 6550's and it had sovteks in it. He insisted on dropping the $400 or whatever on all these Groove Tube R series tubes and when he installed them he heard and felt no difference.. either did I. A waste of money that was. Are these cables going to be the same story?

 

[Livingston]

Please excuse my ignorance here... cause I haven't had the luxury of playing on such high end cables.. but is there a TON of noticeable difference? Like.... the audience could hear a difference type of thing? Or is it more worth it to just ensure that I have a fresh set of strings on my guitar hahaha

I have a tube tester here at work and I've tried the tubes that barely read any Gm versus ones that read super high and tonally, I hear nothing. Dead strings on the other hand makes a ton of difference.

It's just a lot of money to be throwing at something that might tighten a little bottom end... I dunno. Just want legit opinions rather than what someone read on some internet site... like.. oh the JJ tubes sound so much better than sovteks.... blah blah.

Ex: my buddy bought the Zakk Wylde reissue 800 loaded with 6550's and it had sovteks in it. He insisted on dropping the $400 or whatever on all these Groove Tube R series tubes and when he installed them he heard and felt no difference.. either did I. A waste of money that was. Are these cables going to be the same story?

This is something that is constantly being debated, but the short answer is that the whole high-end cable thing is a lie. The only thing that matters in a cable is capacitance.

The most f-ing ludicrous thing is the "jazz" cables made by Monster specifically tailored to jazz guitar. :roll:

 

[soundpurist]

Please excuse my ignorance here... cause I haven't had the luxury of playing on such high end cables.. but is there a TON of noticeable difference? Like.... the audience could hear a difference type of thing? Or is it more worth it to just ensure that I have a fresh set of strings on my guitar hahaha

I have a tube tester here at work and I've tried the tubes that barely read any Gm versus ones that read super high and tonally, I hear nothing. Dead strings on the other hand makes a ton of difference.

It's just a lot of money to be throwing at something that might tighten a little bottom end... I dunno. Just want legit opinions rather than what someone read on some internet site... like.. oh the JJ tubes sound so much better than sovteks.... blah blah.

Ex: my buddy bought the Zakk Wylde reissue 800 loaded with 6550's and it had sovteks in it. He insisted on dropping the $400 or whatever on all these Groove Tube R series tubes and when he installed them he heard and felt no difference.. either did I. A waste of money that was. Are these cables going to be the same story?

This is something that is constantly being debated, but the short answer is that the whole high-end cable thing is a lie. The only thing that matters in a cable is resistance. Here's a good article:

http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/article/1790/

The most f-ing ludicrous thing is the "jazz" cables made by Monster specifically tailored to jazz guitar. :roll:

Yeah, impedance is a major key in the change of sound but it's not the only factor:

http://www.evidenceaudio.com//design.html

A lot of people like the George's cable with their (solderless) connector but not much people know that it's Bill Lawrence who came first with those kind of cables (invented in Germany in the 60's) and connectors. The secret of Jimi hendrix's tone is partially because he used those cables.

http://www.billlawrence.com/Pages/Connector_Cable.htm

The melody is an excellent cable as much excellent as cables with three time the price! I just said it was great in the tri-axis. I own the AE lyric HG, the Van Den Hul (very balanced) that i enjoye both.

The ELC lavacable seems to be the best deal in that quality range though.(check the chart) The sommer cables seem to be nice too.

It depend on your needs, some time you can reach the sound of your dreams for not much expensive. :wink:

Cheers. Martin

P.S. If you read all the good information on the web and try different cables (at the store if you can) you will that see that to hear is to believe.

 

[Livingston]

Resistance is not the same thing as impedance. Sadly, you are misinformed. I have spoken to about 5 electrical engineers on the subject of high end cables, and every one of them has confirmed that physics proves unequivocally that it is a lie.

I don't believe "hearing is believing" because you are not just hearing with your ears, but with your eyes. No one has ever been able to tell the difference between expensive cable and cheap cable with the same capacitance in a double blind test.

But, great news for you is that you can get $1000000 from the the James Randi Foundation if you can differentiate between high end cables in a double blind test. There's no reason for you not to, since you seem pretty confident that you can hear the difference without seeing the brand name.

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

 

[FastRedPonyCar]

Resistance is not the same thing as impedance. Sadly, you are misinformed. I have spoken to about 5 electrical engineers on the subject of high end cables, and every one of them has confirmed that physics proves unequivocally that it is a lie.

I don't believe "hearing is believing" because you are not just hearing with your ears, but with your eyes. No one has ever been able to tell the difference between expensive cable and cheap cable with the same resistance in a double blind test.

But, great news for you is that you can get $1000000 from the the James Randi Foundation if you can differentiate between high end cables in a double blind test. There's no reason for you not to, since you seem pretty confident that you can hear the difference without seeing the brand name.

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

So buying say... the live wire patch cables at guitar center is "good enough" as opposed to the ELC cables?

 

[Livingston]

No, I'm not saying there is no difference between cables. I'm saying the only factor is capacitance*, and capacitance can't be tied to how much cables cost. Some cheap cables will have higher capacitance than $1000 cables. I saw a test once which showed that a wire hanger outperformed all other cables in the test, including very expensive ones.

The basic rule is that higher capacitance = more treble being rolled off, especially with a longer cable run. If you are spending more than $30 for an instrument cable, you have been robbed. Things like gold-plated connectors, cryogenic treatment, etc. is total snake oil and you should not fall for it.

* I made a mistake; resistance is not the important factor, capacitance is.

 

[FastRedPonyCar]

what cables do you use?

Does guitar center sell anything worth buying? I've got a few planet waves cables.

Most stores, online vendors and manufacturers don't advertise capacitance.

 

[Livingston]

I have a bunch of different cables, some the regular black and blue ones from guitar center, some Planet Waves which I got for free. I don't notice a difference in any of them, but I have never done a side by side comparison because I don't think it's relevent. If I had no tone controls on my instrument or amp, then maybe these minute differences would matter. But since I do, I don't think it matters at all. I've never plugged in and not been able to get my sound.

 

[eltrain858]

No one has ever been able to tell the difference between expensive cable and cheap cable with the same capacitance in a double blind test.

I have a bunch of different cables, some the regular black and blue ones from guitar center, some Planet Waves which I got for free. I don't notice a difference in any of them, but I have never done a side by side comparison because I don't think it's relevent.

Yeah, I bet it's pretty hard to tell the difference if you never try...

 

[Livingston]

But, see, I don't care whether there is some minute difference, because I have extensive graphic EQ ability. If I ever find myself wanting for some high frequencies, I can make that happen, so it's irrelevent to me.

It is relevent, however, to people who publish stereophile magazines, and to people who spend obscene amounts on cables. These are the people who have tried and failed numerous times to tell the difference.

You guys don't have to doubt me idly. If you believe I'm wrong, you stand to win $1 million. If you can tell the difference in a double blind test, you will be a millionaire. So what's stopping you?

 

[mikey383]

I can definately tell the difference between a Horizon cable and a Planet Waves cable. It was a drastic difference too.

But when it comes down to spending hundreds on cables, I'll stick with my $30 PWs.

 

[chris.goth]

I agree to the fact that tonewise, different cable quality will be very subtle.
Ang again, if you use only one cable straight to the amp, changing from cheap to high-end will be less likely to colour or change the tone than in a rackmount setup where a lot of the signal has to go through them.

Just use ten low quality patch cables in a rackmount system and your tone
will be drasticly different. Just like plugging 10 Boss pedals in line compared to 10 quality boutique pedals... your tone will be (more) degraded.

The most noticeable change when using a good cable is in the attack of notes: it's accuracy in transmitting dynamics, punch because of stronger signal, and overall tightness.

Most people won't notice the difference, even between some pros. But as for many people I know who study in music and spend 12 hours a day training their ear (just like a good tech can tell which freq exactly do boost from an exact amount of db), most of us can easily say it's worth the money to buy at least mid-grade cables ('cause us, music student are usually pretty poor).

I'm not saying some who bash high-end cables don't have a good ear,
because some will never hear certing things, and it's still something with
a part of subjectivity involved, but those who don't play enough to tell won't hear any difference and that's great. Just like those who got the perfect pitch or time, as much as your hearing devellops, you are more likely to be annoyed by more and more things you hear, as everything would sound sharp or flat. In the end... you'll appreciate quality, but will most of the time have to cope with the bad side of things...

 

[Livingston]

Please spare me this condescending "golden ears" BS. I didn't say that all cables are the same; I said the following:

1. Higher capacitance equals more treble rolloff.
2. Capacitance is not at all related to how expensive a cable is. A cheap cable is as likely to have low capacitance as an expensive one.
3. Any other factor in a cable will have an inconsequential effect on the sound of your instrument.

This is not subjective, it is physics. The physics relating to these principles are extremely well-established and incontrovertible. Take a multimeter along with you when you buy cable, and buy the one with the lowest capacitance.

 

[Martin]

Livingston, I don't think it's as cut and dry as simply saying capacitance is all that matters.

The materials used, conductor resistance, conductor cross sectional area- skin effect, type of solder, quality of sheilding, quality of termination etc. all have contributing factors....yes, you could argue these have an effect on the capacitance but it's more than that.

Plus cheap cables become noisey and degrade quicker over time in my experience.

PTFE insulation sounds way more open that say PVC as does 3% silver solder compared to crappy cheap lead/tin solder.

Now I don't profess to know every single electrical equation involved , I just know through my own expreience that this holds to be for the most part true.

My guess would be that if you did replace the cables in your system you would definately hear a difference, the question really, is do you like that difference and if so do you want to pay the $$ for that difference... not so much whether or not there is one.

It's interesting to me that people will buy this pedal or that pedal in an attempt to get that special tone and try and skimp on cables.

I agree that there are a lot of conn men out there selling hype but there are improvements that can be made also.

Using good quality cables will give your tone it's optimum advantage.

 

[Livingston]

I want to be civil, because this is a pretty trivial topic to be arguing about. So I guess I'll have to pull that old standby annoying move and say that we'll have to agree to disagree.

Most of your points are lifted from cable advertising, I'm afraid. Skin effect, for instance, is irrelevent within the range of human hearing. Here is some reading material that explains with physics why it does not matter:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/skin-effect-relevance-in-speaker-cables

Again, I am not saying that replacing your cables with other cables couldn't make an improvement. It's just that you cannot replace your cables with very expensive ones and be certain there will be an improvement. Cheap cables are as likely to sound good as expensive ones, and if you spend 2 minutes learning how to use a soldering iron, any cheap cable will last you a lifetime (and in my experience, expensive cables need to be soldered as often as cheap ones). When I say cheap cables, I don't mean the cable they give you when you buy your first guitar when you're 13; that's trash. I mean any cable in the $20-$30 range. Personally, I am not willing to give my money to a company that uses outright lies to convince people to buy their product.

Ultimately, though, if an expensive cable makes you happy and you can afford it, that's fine with me. I just hate to see people being told that they need this stuff to sound good. And don't say I didn't warn you when you're buying $13,000 power cables.

 

[Martin]

Livingston,

I am kind of surprised by the tone of your response, you come off as being irritated or annoyed somehow ??

I wasn't aware that anyone in here was arguing ?...anyhow, you are correct I think, people do get sucked into buying expensive cables with diminishing returns the more you spend in terms of % improvement.

Regarding me lifting stuff from advertising.. you are, to be blunt way off on that.

I was simply imparting the results of my own experimentation and experience....as far as PTFE insulation etc.......the skin effect... maybe I did read that somewhere but I do know it is cited as having an effect. Regardless, I could really care less.

I don't take too much stock on advertising or marketing claims, more through personal references and/or my own results from my own cables that I have made.

Personaly, I use low capacitance cables, PTFE insulated terminated with good quality neutrik or switchcraft plugs. I use 3% silver solder.

The cables sound great, I keep all my runs to an absolute minimum, my power cords are silver plated PTFE insulated OFC which I make myself ....nothing fancy, no brand names.

Are they better or as good as the expensive $120 plus cables.... I have no clue, I have never don an A/B comparrison.... I would like to though some day.

I can say that they are noticeably better than ones I have tried like Monster or Planet Waves etc......