Understanding gain...

[clutch71]

As I drive my amp to a saturated sound that I like I want to understand what "portions" of the amp I'm "hitting."

1.) My understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong) Gain, Treble, Mid, Bass, Presence, Reverb, and Effects loop are the pre-amp section hitting the 5(4 12AX7 and 1 SPAx7) pre-amp tubes. Master, Output, and Solo are the Power section hitting the 2 6l6'S.

2) Which effects my saturation the most pre-amp or power section? Both?

3) I have 4 Groove tube 12Ax7's laying around, will this create a better distortion? Will I notice the difference?

4) I tend to dial Master and Output in equal increments (see my settings below if this doesn't make sense) but I see other's post dynamically different settings, is this due to hitting the pre-amp/power section differently?

5) It appears to me that the "solo" section is voiced slightly more aggressive than the regular "output." Just me?

My setting's...

Vintage Mode
Gain= 4 o'clock Treble= 3 o'clock Mid= 2 o'clock Bass= 4 o'clock Presence= 5 o'clock Master= 11 o'clock Output= 11 o'clock

Modern Mode
Gain= 2 o'clock Treble= 1 o'clock Mid= 8 o'clock Bass= 2o'clock Presence =2 o'clock Master= 11 o'clock Output= 11 o'clock

..when I can crank the amp!

 

[Platypus]

The gain control effects the preamp gain. The channel volume/master output mixture controls the mix of preamp to power amp distortion

As far as your 'saturation,' I doubt you're playing at loud enough levels that you're blowing through 100 or even 50W to get power tube saturation.

The treble/mid/bass controls are all interactive. The most powerful being treble, then mid, then bass. The amount of treble dialed in affects the others. For example, cranking the treble will make the mid control less effective and the bass control even less effective.

As far as tubes, each tube will offer you a different flavor.. some distort quicker and get fizzier, some are smoother, tame treble, boost treble, etc. You have to experiment to find what you like the best. The preamp tubes will have the most overall affect on the tone tube wise.

Since you have a master volume amp, to get the most 'recto' tone at lower volumes, you want to crank your channel master to 11-11:30 (that's the sweet spot to my ears on rectos). Then, use the master output pot as your volume control. This will get you the most out of your power section and give you a decent blend so it's not pure preamp buzzsaw.

Solo.. this is just an additional volume control for pushing solos over the edge. It adds more volume without having to actually raise the output control. It might sound different or more 'edgy' because you're getting more volume and therefore different tube sounds and different speaker interaction, etc.

Hope that helps you sort it out, I don't want to imply that you haven't done so, but the manual for the amp does a really good job of explaining each of the functions, it's definitely worth your time to give it a good read.

 

[clutch71]

As far as your 'saturation,' I doubt you're playing at loud enough levels that you're blowing through 100 or even 50W to get power tube saturation.

Platypus, Thanks for the comments! I have access to an Auditorium where I can crank the amp once a week. I agree with you, the sweet spot seems to be 11-12 on the master and out put. Anything more and the amp starts to muddy out. The settings I posted are loud, trust me!

Around the house I'll try the master at 11 and the output at around 7 and see what that does. Right now I've got it opposite.

One thing I am noticing though is that even though I like the SRC it does not seem to be getting the bottom end of it's bigger brothers. From reading the web-site I think this might be a product of the wattage and regardless what tubes I put in, might not get me where I want to be.

Thanks again! Any other thoughts and comments are always welcome.

 

[siggy14]

With your setting I wouldnt be surprized if in the modern mode you are not cutting through. You have pretty much eliminated the mid freq's which is not really good on an amp that already has the mid's cut. It may sound great when playing alone, but in a band situation you will probaly get buried very fast.

Technically yes you will have slightly less thump because you only have a 50 watt head. However i have owned a rectoverb II head and it had plenty of bottem end, i never had complaint about it and even compared to my dual rec's.

 

[Cleekster]

my .02 cents......

The Master knob controls the last gain stage of the preamp.......turn the out put all the way down and the master all the way up and the amp is quite loud all things considered.......also if you plug a preamp into the return jack the master knob won't do anything so logic tells you it is preamp and not power amp.


i've also found that anything less than 10:00 on the mids(ESPECIALLY in Modern mode)won't cut through the mix live.....

remember that the higher the treble setting is the less lowend thump you'll have.....

try this

VINTAGE MODE:
gain-11, o clock(for crunch)
treble-12-1 o'clock(depends on guitar)
mids- 12 o clock
bass-10:30-12 o clock(depends on pickups)
precsence-8 oclock(the higher the setting the thinner your tone)
master-10:30
output-10:30
solo-11:00

in modern mode i'll decrease the treble slightly and turn the bass up to balance out the extra high-end bite
i can get massive lowend thump from my Rectoverb 50/mesa 2x12 setup so just try the above setting and work from there and remember the higher the volume the more mids(to a point) and less bass you need to keep from getting a farty muddy sound.

 

[siggy14]

I do as the book says and get a great sound.

Modern Channel
Presense 10 or 11 oclock
Treble 12 or 1 oclock
Middle 12 or 1 oclock
Bass 12 Oclock
Gain 3 Oclock

Master wide open with no loop
Channel Volume depends on where i am playing.

my .02 cents......

The Master knob controls the last gain stage of the preamp.......turn the out put all the way down and the master all the way up and the amp is quite loud all things considered.......also if you plug a preamp into the return jack the master knob won't do anything so logic tells you it is preamp and not power amp.


i've also found that anything less than 10:00 on the mids(ESPECIALLY in Modern mode)won't cut through the mix live.....

remember that the higher the treble setting is the less lowend thump you'll have.....

try this

VINTAGE MODE:
gain-11, o clock(for crunch)
treble-12-1 o'clock(depends on guitar)
mids- 12 o clock
bass-10:30-12 o clock(depends on pickups)
precsence-8 oclock(the higher the setting the thinner your tone)
master-10:30
output-10:30
solo-11:00

in modern mode i'll decrease the treble slightly and turn the bass up to balance out the extra high-end bite
i can get massive lowend thump from my Rectoverb 50/mesa 2x12 setup so just try the above setting and work from there and remember the higher the volume the more mids(to a point) and less bass you need to keep from getting a farty muddy sound.

 

[jbird]

Master wide open with no loop
Channel Volume depends on where i am playing.

I don't understand this? If your loop is bypassed ("no loop"), then your master output/solo controls are inactive? So your channel masters are your master volumes. Why do you state: "Master wide open"?

Also: When your loop is active, your channel master become effects loop send controls, along with the rear panel send control as a fine tune device! This circuit, as some of you guys state: "driving harder", is driving one of the preamp tubes "harder"! Essentially, adding another stage of gain! To me, Mesa's heve plenty of gain on tap without having to crank this circuit!

Theres probably a whole 'nother book written on the differences in odd/even order harmonics generated by a preamp section as opposed to a power section! And in reality, I thought Randall's goal was to create a multi cascading preamp to achieve gain in an amp without having to crank it! Those of you who crave this "power section breakup" should then be looking to non-master volume amps! :idea: :roll:

BTW, I'm not sure where exactly the tone controls lie within the amp, but I always related Mesa's tone control circuit to a guitars active pickup system, very sensitive, and "active"!

 

[oyster]

+1 on jbird!

 

[siggy14]

My point was that I keep the loop off to keep the master volume cranked. If you really want to get technical about loops it is always best to add effects after the whole signal chain, meaning after the power section.

Yes i do like power amp distortion as much as pre amp, so i want to keep my loop clean or inactive in other words.

Most effect i use are the ones that go in front, wah, and over drive and for my clean channel chorus.

If i want to use delay or something else i will put it after the mic. Or if i am lucky enough at the console.

Master wide open with no loop
Channel Volume depends on where i am playing.

I don't understand this? If your loop is bypassed ("no loop"), then your master output/solo controls are inactive? So your channel masters are your master volumes. Why do you state: "Master wide open"?

Also: When your loop is active, your channel master become effects loop send controls, along with the rear panel send control as a fine tune device! This circuit, as some of you guys state: "driving harder", is driving one of the preamp tubes "harder"! Essentially, adding another stage of gain! To me, Mesa's heve plenty of gain on tap without having to crank this circuit!

Theres probably a whole 'nother book written on the differences in odd/even order harmonics generated by a preamp section as opposed to a power section! And in reality, I thought Randall's goal was to create a multi cascading preamp to achieve gain in an amp without having to crank it! Those of you who crave this "power section breakup" should then be looking to non-master volume amps! :idea: :roll:

BTW, I'm not sure where exactly the tone controls lie within the amp, but I always related Mesa's tone control circuit to a guitars active pickup system, very sensitive, and "active"!

 

[pjrake]

right now i'm bypassing the FX loop and adjusting the channel master to the desired level (or until my singer starts yelling at me!).

i'm still messing around with my settings but some things i won't do is raise the gain pass 1 o'clock, lower the mids more than 9 o'clock, and raise the treble pass 2 o'clock. that treble knob is very sensitive!

i'm ordering a hotplate to see if i can get a more saturated sound from the tubes. the best sounds i get is whenever we play an auditorium or a school gym. i crank that sucker up and it sounds so awesome, but in bars and small club (and rehearsal space) i can't get my master past 9 o'clock

 

[Elpelotero]

pjrake,

i would love to hear your guitar w/ those pickups!!!

 

[jbird]

My point was that I keep the loop off to keep the master volume cranked. If you really want to get technical about loops it is always best to add effects after the whole signal chain, meaning after the power section.

Yes i do like power amp distortion as much as pre amp, so i want to keep my loop clean or inactive in other words.

:?: You keep the loop off to keep the master volume cranked makes no sense :?:

:?: Why do you keep an inactive control cranked :?:

:?: What's the point of cranking any control on this amplifier :?:

:idea: Using common sense would tell you there's no need to crank any control on this amp :idea:

:!: I have'nt talked about placement of effects :!:

:idea: Bypassing your loop will increase the tone/dynamics of the amp, but what's that got to do with pre/power amp distortion :?:

I think we're just misunderstanding eachother here, huh? :? :wink:

 

[disassembled]

I think siggy makes perfect sense J. Having extra components in the circuit will affect tone and by bypassing the loop you are removing those extra components and making a straightforward path to the destination (PI tube and then the output tubes). By bypassing the loop you are in sense "cranking" that control because it is now out of the circuit. I think you are imagining him disabling the loop and then going to the master and turning up then saying "yeah that's it; now it sounds good" which of course would be silly since the control is not operational. I am pretty sure he just means sending 100% of the signal from the preamp from the channel master volume to the phase inverter.

With my old PV triple X the clean channel wasn't as bright unless you turned the master up to full. To say the controls of the amp are not meant to be turned up is like telling someone they like the wrong music. That is a severe generalization and should probably be made clear that it is YOUR belief and not the 11th commandment.

What this has to do with pre/pwr distortion is that it makes the signal direct so the only variables in the signal chain are the gain,treb,mid,bass,volume, and prescence and not all of those things plus the overall amps master volume, the send and return levels for the loop, etc.


Greg

 

[jbird]

I agree with you on most accounts, however: What master control are we speaking of "cranking" when bypassing the loop?

I use Mesa's recommendation of using common sense when using the controls on these amplifiers, thus using them in their "useable" ranges! Not "cranked"! So it's not a "generalization" on my part, nor MY "belief", it is the 11th commandment!

Making the signal direct in his amplifier (bypassing the loop) has no affect on pre/power amp distortions? It's about preamp gain levels and power amp levels/output! :?:

 

[disassembled]

I agree with you on most accounts, however: What master control are we speaking of "cranking" when bypassing the loop?

I use Mesa's recommendation of using common sense when using the controls on these amplifiers, thus using them in their "useable" ranges! Not "cranked"! So it's not a "generalization" on my part, nor MY "belief", it is the 11th commandment!

Making the signal direct in his amplifier (bypassing the loop) has no affect on pre/power amp distortions? It's about preamp gain levels and power amp levels/output! :?:

The overall master volume (IE the black knob all the way to the left) is the one i am referring to and i believe it is what siggy is reffering to as well. When you take it out of the signal you are in theory doing the same as cranking it (which basically would eliminate that control from the circuit but not completely. This is why it's better to bypass the loop completely IMO to achieve this.). Then you use the individual channel volume to control the output volume. Cranking the master output doesn't mean the amp is going to be loud because each channel has it's own volume and that turns into the determining factor of how loud the amp is. You are just cutting out the middle man for the controls.

Again i believe you don't understand what is being said which is why you keep repeating yourself.

Think of it this way.....you have two volume pedals in line on the floor. You set 1 at 25% cut and the other at 25% cut. You bring one volume to 100% and the other to 50%. In a perfect world you would achieve the same results as both at 25%. Now ,stick with me here, what is the difference between the volume pedal at 100% and removing it from the signal chain? This is in theory not what might happen due to running extra cables and worrying about the internal components. Removing the second volume pedal from the chain would equal the same as putting it at 100% which is what I believe the point siggy is trying to make.

The overall master volume is just a convenient way to match all of the channel volumes at low levels and then just bring them both up at the same time with the same control. Who cares about maxing it and using your individual channel volumes? I mean whatever works, right? This convenience may not be the best thing for your tonal satisfaction which was thoughtful of Mesa to make it removable from the signal path.

Sometimes it's ok to deviate from the "norm" to try something new.

Greg

 

[jbird]

Aha! So removing the Loop is essentially cranking the Overall Master? Wow, never heard that one?

When the loop is removed from the circuit, it's removed from the circuit, completely!

Your channel masters become your level controls with the loop bypassed!

There is no "cranking master" affect!

 

[disassembled]

Aha! So removing the Loop is essentially cranking the Overall Master? Wow, never heard that one?

When the loop is removed from the circuit, it's removed from the circuit, completely!

Your channel masters become your level controls with the loop bypassed!

There is no "cranking master" affect!

Are you being sarcastic or serious?

Greg

 

[jbird]

Are you being sarcastic or serious?

Greg

The notion you even have to ask explains it all! What don't you get about the above statement: "There is no "cranked master" affect when the loop is bypassed!" Seriously!

 

[simonich]

I'm still trying to get past the example of two pedals at 25% cut each being the same as 1 at 0% cut (or 100% "on"), the other at 50%. It's not the same.

The first situation would yield a 100% signal getting cut to 75% via pedal #1, then that signal getting cut another 25% via pedal #2 for an output of ~56%.

The second case would yield an output of 50% because pedal #1 would do nothing, and pedal #2 could cut to 50%. Anyway, this yields ~10% less final output than the first case.

On the other stuff, you both lost me.

 

[Anonymous]

Post removed.