Tubes, tubes, power tubes

[djw]

First off: Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

So I've been running some JJ 6L6s in my LSC for the past, oh, 8 months or so. Not gigging as much as I would like, but I work at home and get to take noodle-breaks frequently, which means my amp (which is right next to my desk) is on frequently, almost always at 50w. Not cranking, but loud enough to hear it and get a little something going.

So I recently realized that my ears have been getting a little fatigued lately and I *think* it's because my JJ's have started to lose their charm. Or something. It's been a long time since I've worn out a pair of tubes; previously it was in my JCM800 and I would go through EL34s every 6 months or so (was playing a lot then), which would manifest itself with a lack of clarity and increased dullness to the tone. My LSC sounds anything but dull at this point; if anything it's a little overly glassy. Harsh. Swapping them out has been good and confirms that whether or not the JJs are toast, they aren't pleasing to me at this point.

So... I want to try some other 6L6s OR some good-sounding EL34s.
I have tried production versions of these so far:

Tung Sol 6L6 - adequate, better than the stock Mesas, but unremarkable.
JJ KT77 - ok too, but a bit unforgiving; not quite what I'm after.
I've also spent some time with JJ 6V6s, at a certain rating with the EL34 bias setting, and these are nice but I think I need a tad more firmness in the lows.
Tung Sol 6V6s - not bad, but again unremarkable.
Mesa EL34s, "gray" - I have these in there now, and they actually sound pretty good. But I wonder if I can get a little more color or something...

I have NOT yet done the bias mod on my amp; I'm sort of waiting for my warrantee to age a bit more. But I plan to do it soon. Meantime, I wonder if anyone has had really great experiences with any 6L6 other than the JJs, or with any EL34s that they think are particularly cool.

Thanks for reading!

-Damon

 

[plan-x]

Ya know, that bias mod is probably the next "fix" you're gonna need. Cuz all that's left is some vintage NOS $$, cork sniffin tubes.:lol:

On a different angle, my bass player got one of those sans amp bass pedal gizmo box that really super charged his sound. I was surprised because he has a nice rig and I didn't think much improvement could be made on it. But I was was wrong. Got me to thinkin', would their stuff do the same for the Pig? I use a BBE stomp and that pedal can sound like a good tube change.

 

[PilotSSW]

Im curious as well, I have a JJ gold pin KT-77 set, the mids and highs sound great, but the bass is totally overwhelming.
What are you lonestar users running for both preamp and power sections ?
I've gone through several different online forums, but there is really no solid answer and just alot of stupid name-calling.

~ Sean

 

[djw]

Ya know, that bias mod is probably the next "fix" you're gonna need. Cuz all that's left is some vintage NOS $$, cork sniffin tubes.:lol:

On a different angle, my bass player got one of those sans amp bass pedal gizmo box that really super charged his sound. I was surprised because he has a nice rig and I didn't think much improvement could be made on it. But I was was wrong. Got me to thinkin', would their stuff do the same for the Pig? I use a BBE stomp and that pedal can sound like a good tube change.

Yeah, those bass pedals are pretty rockin', my old bassist used one as a driver and direct out; it was great.
I had one of their early modelers (one of the more stripped down ones w/Tweed, British and California modes, not with all the micro toggles). It sounded good, though it really changed the character of the tone -- by design obviously (it was a modeler!). It sounded sort of canned compared to an honest, organic guitar-into-amp sound... They might make a straight-ahead driver, I don't know. Mine up and crapped out for no apparent reason, so I'm sort of off of their stuff myself... YMMV

As an update, interestingly, I have been using those Mesa EL34s (the "gray" coded ones) in the outer slots (using mostly the 50w setting, I have some JJ KT77's plugging up the inners)... and I have decided these tubes sound AMAZING. I didn't really like them when I first got them, but maybe the preamp tube swaps I did in the interim since I first tried them got them all lined up right with the whole. They sound awesome -- the clean is just fine, maybe a little less punchy than 6L6s; but the drive character is SMOOOOTH, baby, smooth. Really dynamic and clear, but it seems like all the rough edges are just gone. Maybe my tinnitus has gotten the better of me. But I can't believe how good they sound.

I tried a pair of SED 6L6s from Doug's, and they sound alright... I'll give them another go next time I feel the need to go with the 6L6 thing. But after giving them a little burn in, I pretty quickly put those EL34s back in. I'm in love.

Also interestingly, I picked up an Egnater Tweaker head a few weeks ago (I've decided I need to be a little more judicious with lifting that damned LSC -- even the short head weighs a half ton... yeah, that was it). I LOVE the Tweaker! So much fun, and it's cathode biased and takes any octal tube... so I put the other pair of those Mesa EL34s into that, and they sound outstanding in the Tweaker too. I'm having fun right now.

So Sean, regarding your question... I have a mix of preamp tubes in my LSC. A while back I went with Doug's Tubes' recommendation for the LSC:
V1 - Tung-Sol reissue
V2 - Mullard reissue
V3 - Penta Labs
V4 - Shuguang 9th gen
V5 - Sovtek LPS

I went with this for a long time, and it made a huge difference. I've changed one or two since then; the one I'm sure of is that I swapped the Mullard in V2 out for a JAN 5751, and that was a great move for me, since I don't use a crapload of gain. (The Mullard is now in the Tweaker, improving things there as well) I might have an EH 12at7 in v5 now, I can't remember. Possibly a JJ equivalent.

Those KT77s are a beast, aren't they? I'm sort of on the fence about JJs right now... I appreciate that they're consistent and well-constructed, but so far my experience with them has been mixed. It's probably a question of style. Their 6V6s are huge, unique, and sound great in the EL34 bias setting, if you can get a properly-rated match for that: very juicy and sudsy, but maybe too soft in the clean department for me. Fun though. Anyway, the tube thing is really all about taste when you get down to it.

 

[PilotSSW]

Truthfully, I ended up putting all the stock tubes back in. I have about a few day honeymoon period when I change my tubes, but I have come to the final terms that after several swaps back and forth, that I really don't like JJ's in lonestar at all. The KT-77's were pretty cool sounded. A love-breed between a very HOT EL-34 and a well rounded 6L6, but the bass is so **** strong in these, that with a lonestar it is all almost overkill at times. I found that when I can set the bass at noon with 6L6's on either channel regardless of wattage, the KT-77's were always near off.
They were indeed smoother and had a more-pleasing break-up than the stock 6L6's, but too much bass.
As far as a preamp tubes, I really need to experiment. Being that I'm 19 and bound for berklee come may (yeah I'm leaving for their summer semester I need to save some cash and get ready. I'm not even sure I can bring my hefty black pig with me yet.

However, for you who don't know of Myles Rose, he is a tube genius and very kind guy (I believe he also works with Groove Tubes). Anyhow, he replied with

"Sean,

Get some good winged C 6L6s in the power section and a good medium plate NOS RCA or GE in V1 and V2. The remainder of the 12AX7s could be the new reissue Tung Sol 12AX7. In the phase inverter a balanced 12AX7LPS or JJ 803S that has at least 1.1mA of plate current on each side.

That is a good start.

You can probably get all this stuff in a cool little kit from Mike at http://www.kcanostubes.com ; I will send a copy of this to KCA so you have their contact info.

Myles"

Indeed very helpful; I'm curious of those who have tried these combination's in the big pig.

Another interesting thing I saw was a forum over in the rectifier wing
http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=32608
If anyone's looked at this, I'm curious to know if it will react similarly to the lonestar's preamp. I've had limited luck with getting a sound that I can just jam with.

~ Sean

P.S. Damon you have been loads of help over the time I've read through your posts. Very informed stuff, thanks a bunch

 

[djw]

Hey thanks Sean, I appreciate the feedback.

I liked reading Myles' advice, I may have to splurge on a couple of NOS 12ax7s this holiday season. Interestingly, before I had a chance to gig with the EL34s in my pig I got fussy again and tried the SED winged C 6L6GCs again, with a pair of the Mesa 6L6s holding down the inner slots, and wham! I got hooked on them. (I almost always use the 50w setting) I guess I'd tried the EL34s in rehearsal and they didn't *pop* enough for me at the time, or something; anyway, I managed to get a really spankin' tone with them this time so I went with it. Did the gig that night, and I was very happy with my sound. So they're in to stay for a while. I did a quick camera clip that day, you can *sort of* hear what it did for me, please excuse the aimless noodles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w6aiwQyoHY

However I think part of all this is that my house's AC circuit has some brown spots or something, because the cold shrillness came back a little; so yesterday I got fussy again and I put that Mullard back in V2, and bumped the 5751 back to V5 (where an EH 12AT7 had been), and I'm liking that all together now. More gain, but really smooth and rich.

I tried the JJ 6L6s again: still too glassy for me. I think at this point I am in agreement with you about JJs, I can't seem to stay happy with many of their tubes.

Happy holidays!

 

[djw]

Oh, and in regards to jdurso's post about preamp tubes... a lot of this is applicable I would guess, but not line for line. Obviously, we don't have a V6, so substitute our V5 for that. The stuff about V1 and V2 is probably applicable for the most part, just keep in mind that the circuits in the LS and the Roadster have enough differences that the results will differ enough that I'd just use that info as a jumping off point.

A lot of people are surprised by the fact V2 has so much to do with the tone, but it makes total sense when you think about the cascading gain design that Mesas are famous for. I'm by no means an expert on any of this, mind you, but intuitively it makes sense to me.

That recipe I listed above from Doug did me very well, so that was most likely a recommendation with a basis in reality... but improvement on that will take experimentation, which can get very expensive after a while.

 

[PilotSSW]

I very well may try Doug's tubes. The vendor myles listed (KCA) is just 12 miles down the road from me (no pun intended). But 400 bucks is 400 bucks. I may give dougstubes a try if others are finding tones they like from him.

I also love the clip, that is fantastic. You have really brought that LSC a long way. What I'm finding more and more, is that (including most other Mesa's too) they EXTREMELY sensitive to everything going in them. In the past I've owned a couple marshalls, fenders, even the seymour duncan twin tube line and none of them are nearly as sensitive as most mesa's. That said, once you do find the right things going in, they are indeed balls to wall. But for me, I still haven't hit the honey pot with little beauty of a pig, even after however long (geez, closing in on two years with it now).

I've heard great things about using an AT7 in the phase inverter position, I have a 5751 in there now. I actually noticed a drop in gain on the 2nd channel even at quiet volumes. Not sure how that plays out, as there was already a volume drop like expected when going from the AX7 to the 5751.

My house's AC is a little finicky, I have a furman running everything, but to tell you the truth I don't hear a **** bit of difference with or without that thing. I don't doubt that they will protect you from some serious surge, but I have yet to hear any special filtering or cleanup of any signal.

Just out of curiosity, in comparison to Jdurso's post with the roadster, have you found anything similar to that with the lonestar ? I'm curious, because I know this lonestar has what Im looking for being hidden behind a few tube changes and I'm waiting to jump on a stiletto when I get some more cash, as both amps have the functionality and ballpark tone that Im looking for. And no Im not aiming to be a Timmons clone, I promise lol I came onto these amps before I knew he played them.

 

[lespauljoe1]

It has been my finding that good preamp tubes in certain locations, have a bigger impact on tone than do power tubes. I use (or used) RCA 5751 triple mica tubes and RFT 12AX7's in my Electra Dyne and for my taste they made a definite improvement. You do have to experiment one tube at a time to see what you like best. I said used because unfortunatly I had to sell some gear to pay off a few bills and the ED went. No worries though, I have a down payment on a Lonestar Classic.

As for power tubes, they do make a difference and I have found that Mesa tubes are as good as any modern tube. It just depends on what overall tone you want. I also like SED Winged C tubes. IMO, they add some clarity and chime. Another tube I really like is the TAD. It is very warm. Not as bright or clear as the SED, but a very good tube.

I've got to mention that I tried a pair of NOS GE 6L6GC for my Supersonic (sold also). To my ear, they sounded very much like the TAD's. That is to say, they sounded very good with a wamr character, but I would buy the TAD's to save money.

Good luck.

 

[PilotSSW]

I have to agree with Joe. I think preamp tubes make a far bigger difference, especially in boogies, because you have to crank them so loud to hear any power tube breakup anyways. I've only gotten my lonestar to break-up on the 50 and 100 settings a handful of times. The 10 watts break-up isn't so much quieter as it is lacking the heavy bass of the other two channels.

I aim for a brighter tone coming from the preamp so I can back it off with the tone controls on the tone stack and further more on my guitars. Once I started messing around with those it made worlds of difference, I went from wanting fifteen different channels to two tops (maybe three for a boost, but even so).

My goal with this lonestar is to get an awesome preamp tone that kills at lower volumes and just sounds better with volume, right now, its ok at bedroom volumes but I've heard this amp sound phenomenal even at lower volumes. I know mine can do better.


~ Sean

 

[djw]

I agree with all of the above, with a couple of caveats:

1. The gain channel does need some volume to get out of the weeds. Not necessarily a LOT of volume, but just a bit above bedroom is a big difference from bedroom and below. It really can't get off the ground otherwise. I don't think the clean channel really has this issue, though it does improve as the volume goes up.

2. Preamp tubes do make a really obvious, perceptible and important difference in the tone. Power tubes' affect is more subtle, especially at lower volumes -- but it is noticeable, in my experience, and I don't think you need to be pushing them a huge amount to hear it. As I said it's subtle, but it's real I think. It's sort of like the way the harmonics are pushed out of the amp; some power tubes support the preamp better or just differently than others. Brightness, girth, things like that are characteristics that I've noticed change with power tubes. For instance, those KT77s have an obvious effect that doesn't need to be cranked to hear.

Just my experience. But I don't think it's in my head.

 

[PilotSSW]

Haha I think some of it we half imagine or at least our minds exaggerate what we may expect to hear a bit, but I do believe that we are really making changes in the actual sound. I completely agree with getting some volume in, the amp does indeed smooth out with volume. I was reading through posts in here earlier and come upon one by someone with an SRV tag who said he got great tones with his loops volume way down. Just for the hell of it I tried it and loved it. It seems that once the master is above 9, the sounds opens up a little bit. It may be half the internals making a difference rather than just volume alone. Anyhow, I love my power section just open enough before the point of breakup, where it gets warm and full, I put on the 50 and 100 watt settings and dimed the output with the loop down and the tone was full. The preamp still needs work, but that was a great leap ahead. On another note, I ordered groove tubes for my JCM a ways back. I had two Russian 3's and a 5751. The the R3's ended up in V1 and V2 and the 5751 was in the phase inverter (mesa's stock R2's are still in V3 and V4). The gain was a little on the downside and the breakup wasn't real smooth, in fact it had alot of grawl and snarl, but the clarity was miles ahead of the JJ's, so I'll take it. In fact I had my tone knobs on 4 and 5 on a Les Paul Supreme (this is one of the darkest guitars I have ever played, the neck pickup anyways, the bridge is a little bright in the upper mids actually) with the tone stack on the Lonestar as 3 and 12:30 on gain and drive, T-12, M-3, B-1, P-1, M-9, O-dimed. And it was actually about the most well-rounded tone I have yet from this amp. Regardless of where I set the output, the sound was clear and balanced and consistent at all volumes. Keep in mind the preamp signal was very low so the output wasn't all that loud either. The russians weren't quite the break-up I was looking for, but the clarity was absolutely fantastic, probably the best its ever been. For some reason I can't seem to figure out why the R3's spun circles around the mesa's R2's. Oh well.

Anyhow, my plan for the amps is to get some kind of amp switcher setup going and run a BB pre with a volume boost as a channel 3 for heavier rythym sounds, and a second as channel 4 with more gain and bass for a thicker lead tone. I'm thinking about adding a stiletto and special into the mix for different tones. I've got a big appetite I've found that these amps, while they can hold on their own with the gain pretty high, really benefit from having a decent boost in front like most other amps. Right now I have seymour duncan pickup booster as a clean boost into my drive channel for leads, works ok, but you can only nail the front end so hard before the breakup gets gainy. I'm not aiming for rectifier tones, but something like a John Mayer Trio gained up sound or Joe Bonamassa tone. Come to think of it, the russians with my Les Paul and a clean boost in almost nailed his tone on the head. I like Andy Timmons quite a bit, but I think his tone coming from this amp just astonishes me in every way, I can't see it.
~ Sean