The New Loudness Wars: Stage Volume

[MesaGod666]

Ok. I've been thinking about this recently as I have spent many thousands of dollars on my gear and have been doing this for 10+ years. My band REDSKY (Melo-death metal) just finished our first leg of touring and there's a common thread that we have encountered at every gig and it has to do with stage volume. We don't run monitors (because of feedback and other issues) or have IEMs (yet). We have primarily been playing clubs and bars, but we also played an auditorium and a college arena/gymnasium. For the clubs and bars some sound engineers like having a loud stage, but most engineers demand that the stage volume be kept to a min. Which brings me to my first question, what is loud is too loud for a club or bar and why?

My live rig is a Triaxis/2:Ninety set up running two 4x12 Mesa Cabs. I've barely been able to get the volume knob on the 2:Ninety past 9 o'clock before peaking the soundboard. When I run my Mark V (for smaller venues) its the same situation. I can't get past 9 o'clock on my Master volume (granted I bypass the FX loop and only run CH3). So, this brings me to my second question, when would "cranking the volume" be appropriate at a live gig? I like to have nice loud stage volume, but at the same time I like the overall mix to be nice for everyone as well. The problem we've been having is that the drums are louder than everything else on the stage and everything else is muddy and buried in the mix. I'm a mids guy so hearing myself isn't a problem as long as I am right in front of my rig. When we turn up, though, the entire mix suffers. I don't know if that's because the sound guys suck or because our tones are clashing or whatever. So what is too loud and what is too quiet.

 

[KillDivision]

I've always had this problem with my band.
The problem starts with a hard hitting drummer. Turning your amp down will get you nowhere.
The only solution is to get a electronic drumkit :lol: . There are loads of good drumsamples (Toontrack, Steven Slate Drums) so you dont have to sound like a drummachine. An E-kit isn't very metal, but your soundguy will love it.

Stupid answer?

 

[MesaGod666]

Yeah, we've been thinking about triggering the kit for a while. Don't know if that will solve our stage volume issues though.

 

[pokerrules47]

Running a stadium rig in a bar will never work?

 

[pokerrules47]

To elaborate,

On a huge stage, your amps face straight out, and there is a significant amount of separation between you and the other members, so your microphones aren't picking up each other's signals.

On a tighter stage, you need to bring down the stage volume, and let the FOH system do the heavy lifting. If you don't do this, you know what happens, I know you do... the sound guy has no control over anything as signals are flying everywhere... he gets pissed off, and gives up trying to mix you right, and you sound like **** in the FOH.

Unfortunately, this is the way it goes for you. You are in a metal band after-all. Cranked amps and full throttle everything is what you do best!

IEM's could be a good solution for you, if you can get used to them. I hate them because they get sweaty real quick. The cheaper ones aren't worth the effort, get a good set, fitted if you can't afford them. Take care of your ears man, trust me... I learned the hard way!

Rhetorical question: What do the other bands you run into do?

When I was in a metal band, we side washed our amps usually, towards the drummer... if he couldn't hear us, he sure as F@%k new that we couldn't hear either. We used back fill monitors in front of each or our mics. I would take Bass, Snare and vox, in mine. I don't need to hear myself that much, as like you, I am a real mid rangey type player. I tune a lot on stage. I didn't crank my amp (80s marshall jcm 800 modded). I used front end distortion units to help keep the volume low.

Hope this helps

 

[bzylka]

+1 on sidewashing. I've found closed back cabinets are directional as hell and always seem to be pointing right at the FOH engineer. 90% of the gigs I play are smaller clubs and bars. When I sidewash my cab it only tears off the heads of the other band members instead of the crowds. That's been my solution. BTW I'm usually using either a TriAxis/2:90 rig or a Marshall DSL head and run the 2:90 at noon and the DSL at 4-5. :mrgreen:

 

[fishyfishfish]

My thoughts on stage volume are: be as loud as the drummer. If the drummer can't play at a reasonable volume, encase him with a plastic shield.

 

[MesaGod666]

My thoughts on stage volume are: be as loud as the drummer. If the drummer can't play at a reasonable volume, encase him with a plastic shield.

That's not happening.

I'm pretty sure that we will just resort to not micing our cabs and play uberloud.

 

[SonicProvocateur]

Playing ultra loud will just make the sound hollow in the room by not having it through the mains, plus hearing damage.

+1 on letting the Mains do all the work. Let the soundguy do the work, bring your own if able.

Try only running half your rig perhaps. I suppose I have the luxury of gigging with a 60 watt and slave it to a 2x12 and 4x12, but I only mic the 2x12. The closed back 2x12 is best for bars, but the 4x12 fills the stage unmiced for me and for extra umph. All those speakers wash the stage and kill the sound guy so he mixes you down so you try to adjust. I see it alot when touring bands come with dual recs and have their master on around 8 o'clock (bedroom volume?) and sound like muffled ***. You have to drive it to around 10 o'clock to drive the 6L6s neatly with a single 4x12 for "the right sound". If you bring 2 with a 2:90, i'd say just not hook one for looks or use it with the Mark V. All those 4x12 is going to leave you sounding like Electric Wizard in a bar, not a tight metal band. Noone is going to leave without ringing in their ears.

 

[toneguy86]

My thoughts on stage volume are: be as loud as the drummer. If the drummer can't play at a reasonable volume, encase him with a plastic shield.

That's not happening.

I'm pretty sure that we will just resort to not micing our cabs and play uberloud.

Get a new drummer...I'm not kidding. There is no freaking need to hit that hard and if they do...use a plexi shield and if he doesn't like it show him the door. There are very few drummers who are worth much if they can't play musically and with a band--I don't care what kind of music you play.

Aside from that, there are solutions. Some have been mentioned. I tilt my amps back and point them in from the side (with mics) and I do use a larger monitor that allows kick, bass the other guitar and vocals to all be in front of me. I am the main singer in the band as well, so monitoring is uber important. I have seen rock and metal bands using amps just like yours who also got a good mix by pointing the cabs right towards the wall and micing them from the back. This makes monitors especially critical, I hate the in ear monitors so I got a great Carvin powered floor monitor that can handle the mix. You can tag one for around $300. IF stage sound is controled...a good sound guy can get a good mix in most rooms. Some rooms are a challenge any way you cut it, but it can be done without killing everyone.

 

[Terrorhead]

What's up everyone. this is my first post here but I thought I'd chime in. I play in a metal/hardcore band and I'm sick of trying to play the lets be the loudest game I would rather sound good then loud. My other guitarist has a set-up of 2 different heads 2 different cabs and nothing matches oh and it sounds like garbage. He is new to playing with bands but I've been around a little bit (that's not saying much) but I've recorded with people like Neil Kernon and Kurt Ballou they have shown me a lot. I have a full Mesa stack (dual racktifier 2- 4x12 one slant and one slant straight) But how would you explain to someone that the stage loudness is not necessary.

 

[MesaGod666]

What's up everyone. this is my first post here but I thought I'd chime in. I play in a metal/hardcore band and I'm sick of trying to play the lets be the loudest game I would rather sound good then loud. My other guitarist has a set-up of 2 different heads 2 different cabs and nothing matches oh and it sounds like garbage. He is new to playing with bands but I've been around a little bit (that's not saying much) but I've recorded with people like Neil Kernon and Kurt Ballou they have shown me a lot. I have a full Mesa stack (dual racktifier 2- 4x12 one slant and one slant straight) But how would you explain to someone that the stage loudness is not necessary.

Yeah. Sounds like he needs to take a lesson from someone experienced. He just needs one cab and one head unless he's touring. As far as the loudness is concerned, he'll learn after a couple of gigs of not being able to hear anything.

For me, it all comes down to acoustics and taking the time to tune your gear to the room then setting acceptable levels on stage.

Every venue that my band plays at is significantly different. Places with concrete floors and zero acoustic treatment are my weakness as my tone has been more shrill than I like. I'm pretty much taking the presence levels down to zero and scooping out the 16K frequencies in those venues.

 

[MesaGod666]

Playing ultra loud will just make the sound hollow in the room by not having it through the mains, plus hearing damage.

+1 on letting the Mains do all the work. Let the soundguy do the work, bring your own if able.

The only time I use more than one cab is when we're playing a larger venues like The Eagles Ballroom, Gymnasiums, or Auditoriums. Then I set one cab at levels appropriate for micing and the other cab for stage volume to blend in with the drums. I agree with you and definitely don't think turning up super-loud is a good habit to make.

 

[paintballnsk]

A mic'd guitar rig through 99% of anyone's PA sounds like complete crap compared to a boogie and a high end 4x12.

Also a common problem (as stated before), you want your cab at your back, not a monitor in your face. Hello feedback.. Your cab has to at least be loud enough for YOU to hear it. If it's not, something's wrong.

Most sound guys want you to turn it just past tuner mute so they can control everything in the PA by themselves. It's usually "I won't be able to control your solos or blah blah blah, but do it if you think you know more than me, it's not my sound you're ruining..." This is a roadster not an MG50. It has volume boosts and multiple channles. I'll figure something out...

So what I like to do usually is have him mic the drum kit just the way he wants, then I bring my guitar just under level with the drums and let him adjust from there. Then I take a wireless right out to mid crowd and hear it myself while my bass player fiddles my volume.

This has happened several times since March. Some sound guys are awesome, some just have no idea how to run sound for metal. Most of them have a "don't tell me how to do my job" mentality. If the venue is less than 200 people, their job should be concentrating on the vocals anyway. I find it entirely un-necessary and overbearing to full mic a drum kit for a small gig. There's no reason to be so loud you need to wear a mouthpiece to keep your teeth from rattling. A guitar rig should be allowed to be as "acoustically" loud as the drummer if the band wants it to be. You can't turn drums down, so why would I want more sound pushing through the cheep POS PA than a nice 4x12 is pushing out? If the venue is like 500+, I usually tend to keep my mouth shut, make sure I can hear myself, and let him take over. The sound guy can usually hear better at the other end of the venue than you can, and a 4x12 isn't going to be as "full" a sound as those venues' PA systems are. Hopefully the sound guy doesn't kill your mids.

I have to say, it's a super common problem in NE PA and upstate NY for venues to be pushing sound just way too freakin loud. And I'm a metal head. But even if there's 4 decent bands that night, most people are going to be so annoyed with the volume they just don't care. And we play probably half our venues at local pubs, clubs, bars, whatever... There's some of those people there that are frankly annoyed that they can't hear the guy next to them screaming for another round. Do you think they'll show up at the bar again for another band night? Hell no. I avoid drinking at bars around here that have "band night Thursdays" just for that reason. We play with some outstanding bands, and I feel bad that I spend half my night outside NOT listening to them just because of the volume. I've seen Metallica, Deftones, Mudvane, Limp Bizkit, Linkin Park etc... at the local arena, and they were really loud, but nothing nearly as punishing as a 2000 watt PA blasting 15 feet from your head. I'm not really a regular concert goer like some of my friends, but I can tell that local venues are just getting obnoxiously loud for no reason, and I think that's part of the reason music is dieing around here.

 

[konstantine RK]

plastic shields..... get that drummer into one and consider putting a plastic shield in front of your lower speakers on your stack

 

[SonicProvocateur]

A mic'd guitar rig through 99% of anyone's PA sounds like complete crap compared to a boogie and a high end 4x12...

but nothing nearly as punishing as a 2000 watt PA blasting 15 feet from your head...

It sounds like you don't gig out alot. Our practice PA is 1500 watts. The smallest venue we play at is around 10,000 watts and most of the average venues we play at with 100-150 people is probably 15-17,000 watts. If you don't go through the mains, you will NEVER be heard competing with a bank of 7-10 Peavey or Crowns; not in ANY venue. Your sound guy just needs to know how to level properly, for bigger rigs they pump the level high and you have to turn lower and saturate less. I experienced this at a place where we played called Workplay Theater. It was massive and they ran about a 30,000 watt rig. I was at a master volume of 2. I had never ran it that low, but they also had racks of 22" subs and quad racks of 18" mains, so my mids were massive - I couldn't tell on stage because it was too washed (even at 2) but the video playback was terrible. Easily hitting 125+ db.

 

[screamingdaisy]

I don't understand why soundmen have evolved to the point where they no longer understand how to reinforce a band and now insist on sound replacement while treating everyone like they're a CD player.

I do understand that some bands sound incredibly unbalanced, and that it's easier to tell someone that they're too loud rather than tell them that they suck... but sometimes it seems like all the soundmen are reading the same forum and that forums flavour of the day is to make bands turn down to the point where it's pointless to even have them there.

 

[paintballnsk]

If you're playing 100-200 people and you can't get your cab to cut through, I feel bad for you, and you or the sound guy is doing something wrong. I just don't think it needs to be that loud. You gig enough, so you probably have a decent idea of how loud a rectifier is at noon. It's freakin crushing.

 

[MrMarkIII]

You'd be surprised at how many of those massive walls-of-cabs at real concerts are simply there for show - they're not even plugged in, and probably aren't even loaded with speakers. :lol:
But soundmen do suck, majorly.
(I really dig the comment on the difference between "reinforcement" and "replacement". Gotta remember that one! )

 

[nor]

If ya don't wanna turn down yer amps - enclose or baffle them. Or you can use yer amps as sidefills - nice and loud for you, not so much in the house.
If you can't hear over your drummer - enclose him with some plexi baffles. The engineer needs as much control over the kit as possible - mostly kick/snare/hat.

Stagecraft is the difference between the bedroom hero and the rock star.