The New Loudness Wars: Stage Volume

[ryjan]

Great thread! Must read for anyone who gigs. One thing my band always does is sit down with the soundguy before the show and talk to him about how he likes to mix the band. If we sense that he is in the "turn it down to bedroom volume" school of thought then we very politely explain how we have been on an insane quest for tone for many years and have been through more amps, tubes, speakers and eq settings than any other normal person would think is leagal. I say politely because you never want to piss off the soundguy right before your show. They are usually pretty cool about accomedating you if you tell them how you are going to run your amp as long as you make it sound like you're asking them to help you do it. 8) I always end up doing what was mentioned before and aiming our cabs at the kick drum from the rear corners of the stage.

 

[kdorsey]

Agreed, great thread!

There are two very important rules...don't piss off the person serving your food unless you like the taste of someone else's saliva, and don't piss off your sound man unless you like sounding like crap. There are things you can control, others you can't, and others you can compromise. You want YOUR sound on stage so you can do YOUR show the way YOU want. Any change to that jeopardizes the performance, which is what you get paid for. The soundman, if not your own, should know the venue intimately (read: more than you) and will operate it as the venue management has paid him to do. The compromise is in stage volume/monitoring to get the best quality of YOUR sound to the FOH.

Most of you guys play much larger venues than I do anymore, but I do know that sometimes you have to back things down if the house sound and venue can't deal with the volume. If you get 6 musicians crammed into a 20' wide stage (I wish that were an exaggeration!), there's no choice. Let the sound guy do his job. Otherwise, don't book the gig or bring your own sound talent. Personally, after dealing with pro-grade IEMs, that's the way I'd prefer to do it. I can still feel my pair of 2x12s at my back and the guitar drives perfectly as long as I don't have to turn down past 2 on master. And as I figure, if the sound guy can't handle my output at that level, then don't freakin' mic me! The venue must be so small that I can self amplify!! :lol:

 

[EtherealWidow]

You'd be surprised at how many of those massive walls-of-cabs at real concerts are simply there for show - they're not even plugged in, and probably aren't even loaded with speakers. :lol:
But soundmen do suck, majorly.
(I really dig the comment on the difference between "reinforcement" and "replacement". Gotta remember that one! )

 

[fishyfishfish]

Seriously, put that dude in a plastic box if he can't mind his manners.
I also run sound, and I will be the first to admit that there are a lot of Pro Tool want to be dicks that think they are mixing Pink Floyd, and also a lot of cool guys that are just doing a job that really sucks most of the time. I love loud Rock/Metal, but when someone has to run his 100 watt plexi dimed to get "His tone", it sacrifices the rest of the mix, and what the rest of the band sounds like. Same with a drummer that hits so hard it interferes with house mix or a bass player that is so loud I don't run him in the house. Think in automotive terms. A car with a great engine but has sh*tty brakes is pretty much useless. Same with a band that has one member that can't compromise just a fuzz.

 

[ryjan]

Another thing I discovered after a gig this weekend. Don't forget to tell the sh!tty soundguy that you do NOT want him to add his cheap reverb and modulation to your stellar Mesa guitar tone. The rhythm parts to For Whom the Bell Tolls shouldn't sound like CC Devile is playing it. :evil:

 

[volatileNoise]

I play in a 3 piece, and even at rehearsal with ch3 master on around 10.30, still run the output up to around 11.00 and at gigs push it up around noon with my 4x12. Though I run the amp on spongy, but yeah it still needs to be that loud to keep up with a solid drummer, and to cut through nicely in any size venue, and we played in some small venues.

And in a bigger venue the sound guy can just turn up the guitar mix through front house if it needs more, and the stage mix levels are generally workable, but I prefer a relatively loud drummer, especially one that isn't shy with the kick drum!

 

[ak47]

Check these out:

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/GI100.aspx

I have been using these between my amps and cabinets and sound guys just love them... the FOH tone is really good, controllable and this is a dirt cheap solution if you consider the headaches remedied when compared to micing up cabinets...

 

[pokerrules47]

It sounds like you don't gig out alot. Our practice PA is 1500 watts. The smallest venue we play at is around 10,000 watts and most of the average venues we play at with 100-150 people is probably 15-17,000 watts. If you don't go through the mains, you will NEVER be heard competing with a bank of 7-10 Peavey or Crowns; not in ANY venue. Your sound guy just needs to know how to level properly, for bigger rigs they pump the level high and you have to turn lower and saturate less. I experienced this at a place where we played called Workplay Theater. It was massive and they ran about a 30,000 watt rig. I was at a master volume of 2. I had never ran it that low, but they also had racks of 22" subs and quad racks of 18" mains, so my mids were massive - I couldn't tell on stage because it was too washed (even at 2) but the video playback was terrible. Easily hitting 125+ db.

Who the hell runs 17000 watts for 150 people??? Seriously... I've gripped outdoor gigs with major headliners and they used less than that for 15000 people. Step away from the pipe... crack is bad for you.

 

[pokerrules47]

Love to see that rider...

"The Supplied Public Address system shall have no less than 114 watts of power per person in attendance"

LOL

 

[SonicProvocateur]

It sounds like you don't gig out alot. Our practice PA is 1500 watts. The smallest venue we play at is around 10,000 watts and most of the average venues we play at with 100-150 people is probably 15-17,000 watts. If you don't go through the mains, you will NEVER be heard competing with a bank of 7-10 Peavey or Crowns; not in ANY venue. Your sound guy just needs to know how to level properly, for bigger rigs they pump the level high and you have to turn lower and saturate less. I experienced this at a place where we played called Workplay Theater. It was massive and they ran about a 30,000 watt rig. I was at a master volume of 2. I had never ran it that low, but they also had racks of 22" subs and quad racks of 18" mains, so my mids were massive - I couldn't tell on stage because it was too washed (even at 2) but the video playback was terrible. Easily hitting 125+ db.

Who the hell runs 17000 watts for 150 people??? Seriously... I've gripped outdoor gigs with major headliners and they used less than that for 15000 people. Step away from the pipe... crack is bad for you.

http://www.thenickrocks.com
http://www.workplay.com
http://www.masq.com

All places I play regularly, and definitely in the 10-15k range man.

 

[oneamongthefence]

so goes the life of gigging in clubs and small venues. I have a super hard hitting drummer, but i'm glad he is. Drummers should hit hard. And we've never had a problem with him being too loud. At shows, i've never been able to turn my amp past 9, but it's never been too much of a problem. There's a couple things i've learned in playing show after show in places from bars/clubs to small venues and full on arenas, and that is:
-Even if i'm lucky enough to find a decent soundguy at a show, unless we are super famous he won't give a crap enough to do a good mix anyways.
-3 minute rushed soundchecks are the norm.
-clubs aren't built for rock shows
-I've come to expect a terrible mixed show and have learned to deal with it as best i can
-people get the jist of the idea most of the time and most understand that live sound is usually a wall of loud and indecipherable. so goes the territory of gigging these places.

I would dare say that unless you have your own soundguy and have the time each show to properly test and mix sounds with each given venue, that you won't be able to crank your volumes and will usually hate your mix. Even then, you probably won't be able to crank volumes unless your playing large venues or arenas. that's just how it is at small clubs in my opinion.

 

[YellowJacket]

UBERLOUD kills hearing and the vocalist. If a vocalist can't hear well, the vocals will sound bad and the pitch will be off.
Definitely good to have different sized equipment for different venues. The only trouble with metal is that a heavy sound requires a heavy hand on the drums which generates volume. An electronic kit might be the best compromise for very small venues where you don't want to piss off the audience and the soundtards. Different tools for different jobs, I guess.

 

[plapnab]

Get yourself a good wireless monitor system and a set of Extreme Isolation Headphones and you'll never fight your bandmates for stage volume again...this will change your life!