The Great Tube Mystery

[edward]

I talked to the guy at Mesa Boogie and he said it will void the warranty if the amp is fried due to non mesa tubes.

Wow... talk about fear mongering... There are other ways to sell your tubes. I like Mesa amps but don't like that they try to scare people. Plus, that whole story in my manual about Mesa's being fixed bias because bias pots can vibrate out of position just doesn't hold up to reason.

Now to be fair, Randall Smith talks at length about how some folks change the bias hotter, and it sounds better; others change it cooler and it sounds better; suggesting that many who alter the bias will find an improvement ...because it is different (google Hawthorne Effect, where a change of any sort can trigger a positive response when you deal with humans ). I think there is some validity here.

Also, to be fair to Smith, tubes have great variance in voltage and current they can tolerate/put out, even within the same tube type; then there are those who experiment with other tube types (like me ). Should a company honor its warranty when there is a significant variable out there that is beyond its control? To protect *their* interests and bottom line, their policy does make sense. Honda will void their warranty if you throw in a "performance chip" into the ECU ...and so would I.

Lastly, I feel that Smith is doing the right thing by labelling his "own" tubes simply because they meet a minimum set of parameters that helps *us* ...the end user. We get a more consistent product, in both amp tone and tube purchase. What kind of customer satisfaction/trust would there be if customers had to keep coming back because their Mesa rep kept handing him a diferent set of tubes to "try." No, they are not the best tubes, but they are certainly decent tubes, and from a reliability standpoint they are a KNOWN entity. Ask yourself this question: how many vendors will warrant their tubes as Mesa does, let alone for as long as Mesa does? This is to Mesa's credit!

Just thought I'd add some balance ...IMHO anyway

Edward

 

[jamme61]

Swapping tubes opens up a whole new worry and plethora of choices. Most of the time, the changes are VERY small. Most can't even tell.

I've been there. Wasted a bunch of money on different tubes. In the end, it was the same amp.

As of now, I concentrate on my playing. I find I'm much happier that way, and my tone is always good!

It's a Boogie....they were designed around the Mesa tubes. That is something to consider!

+1 I think when people changes tubes and geta dramatic change, something was wrong with the stk tubes. The change in tone is always very small unless like I said you had a dog in there. The stk Mesa tubes are fine IMHO.

 

[ANIMATED SUSPENSION]

I always ask myself if people hate M/B tubes and the 'fixed bias' so much why buy their amps in the first place ? I really like the sound of them and if I wanted a different tone I'd change my pups or use a different OD pedal or such like. And not having to worry about biasing when swapping tubes is GREAT !!!
So if you don't like the sound of Mesa/Boogie amps as standard or the void warranty issue, go buy another brand and quit whining !!!

 

[Juanjo]

In my case no matter what tubes I put in I still wind up with the same basic sound,

I 100% agree with you.

I’ve made a lot of tube test with Mesa and other brands amps and every of them has always kept the same basic sound, except when the tubes were defective. Obviously there are differences in the gain of the tubes but in most cases that can be compensated with the gain of the amp.

I always record my tests so I’m sure I’m comparing the different tubes at homogeneous levels and room conditions.

Speakers can produce a much bigger difference not to say cabinets.

Regards
Juanjo

 

[edward]

Great discussion, and lots of opinions ..the debate rages on!

First off, the comment of speakers making a bigger difference is spot on! You want to change an amp's voice, the speaker has got to be your first step, even before pickups, IMHO.

Will some tube changes yield no sonic difference? Yes, absolutely. BTDT. Which is why I still have a Mesa tube here and there, or even a garden-variety Tung-Sol RI 12ax7 that's a whopping $15 or so each.

But are there tubes that DO make subtle, but notciible differences? Absolutely yes! Undeniably yes! Will others hear the diffs? Maybe not, but if you, the player, feel those little improvements in highs, or thud, or touch dynamics, it's something you "feel" that translates into the music. C'mon, y'all, who hasn't ever gotten "lost" in tonal bliss and simply grooved because all sounded right on for that one moment. Subtle tube swaps can help you get there, but they don't get you there by virtue of a NOS wonder-tube.

And change to a diff tube family? Whoa, now there are some serious differences there. This, friends, is undeniable. Swap out a garden-variety ax7 for an at7 and you'll hear it. As in immediately. Whether it's better is up to you, but these kinds of changes help tailor the core voice of an amp to your personal liking, not to mention how it develops gain and significantly alters its dynamics. You are not making it any less "Boogie toned" as much as you are refining what is already there ...just to your specific liking. It's all very personal.

So yeah, some will succumb to the placebo effect and swear they've "fixed" their tone with a $115 Mullard ax7. All I am saying is there is something to this "tube" thing that goes beyond electrons jumping from plate to plate exacting the same results. If that were true, then all Boogies (let alone tube amps) would all sound really similar now wouldn't they?


Edward

 

[G.I.G.]

I definitely think that Mesa tubes are rock solid. I have never had a problem with a tube that has shipped with my Boogies (I've bought 3 brand new Boogies over the years, still own two). In fact, I have only changed tubes in those amps for preventative reasons, never because I've had a problem with them.

A couple of years ago I bought into the JJ hype and tried a full set of pre and power amp JJ's in my DR. I felt they made my amp sound too dark. So after EQing my amp to get it back to where I liked my sound, I basically just returned to square one. Plus, two of the five preamp tubes I put in died within two months. Overall, the JJ experiment was not worth the hassle IMO.

I personally think you can find sonic bliss easier (and cheaper) by spending more time getting to know your set up and really fine-tuning the EQ than you can swapping out tubes. With that said, I really liked the results when I swapped the stock Mesa power tubes in my Roadster with the Groove Tubes branded =C='s, but I wouldn't say there was a drastic difference. I always use the car analogy here....I would not necessarily buy the OEM tires for my car when I need some new tread, but I certainly won't scrap a brand new set of tires right after I pull of the lot if there is nothing wrong with them, if you know what I mean.

I will only buy Mesa or Groove Tubes now due to reliability and reputation. Can a Mesa or Groove Tubes tube still go south on you prematurely? Sure, but highly unlikely from my experience. I also play live quite a bit in my band and reliability is MUCH more important to me than a couple of tone snobs that might hear a subtle difference in my tone with a different set of tubes. Do what suits your needs the best. That's just my $0.02

 

[Charles Reeder]

Greetings:

I have 2 Mesa Lone Stars and the stock Mesa tubes in both of them were biased pretty cold. The Mesa 6L6 STR-430s that came in my LSC Head read at about 22ma (on the outer pair of tubes). The 6L6 STR-430s that came in my combo read 25ma to 27ma (also on the outer pair). (Note that the outer-pairs are set at the factory to be biased warmer than the inner-pairs.) So the inner-pairs of tubes were even 'colder'.

The combo sounded noticeably better than the head as the tubes were biased 'warmer'. In an effort to find the right 'bias-range' for my Lone Stars...I purchased several sets of relatively cheap Electro Harmonix 6L6s and Sovtek 6L6-WXT tubes that were in the supplier's different 'bias-ranges'. Each supplier uses his own unique numbering system (to denote the bias range) which IS NOT COMPATIBLE with their competitors.

I discovered that the tubes that fell within a 'bias-range' of 30ma to 40ma sounded far better than the stock sets of tubes. Those in the 35ma to 37ma sounded the best of all. I then ordered the 'higher priced' TAD 6L6s in these bias ranges.

The Mesa tubes did not go to waste. I used them in my amps that have adjustable bias...and set them at about 35ma to 37ma and they sound just fine. Not exceptional...but they are perfectly usable tubes equal in quality to EHs etc..

In conclusion...I think it is far more important to get tubes that 'bias' warm enough than just switching brands. Using the more expensive tubes really won't help that much unless they fall into the correct 'bias' range. Get some of them that are 'warm' enough and then they really do make a difference!

And yes...using non Mesa tubes will void your warranty. Worth it? You decide.

Regards: Charles

 

[scoobyzjr]

I used MB tubes for years and had no issues. The past year I picked up some JJ's for my Nomad 100. I wanted to go with EL34s and the JJ's were much cheaper than the MB tubes. I have not had any issues and they sound fine. I purchased them through a JJ tube secondary dealer who supposedly tests and matches tubes, so hopefully there will be better consistency in the tubes they sell.