So sick of my dual rec. Is a Peavey 6505+ in my future?

[Dominus22]

I have owned a 3ch Dual Rectifier for two years now, and i'm so sick of the shrill, piercing highs... the annoying, braying mids... the flubby, sloppy bass. I have been fiddling with the EQ non-stop for two years. I have had sound guys at shows play with it, recording engineers play with it. Still it sucks. The other guitar player in my band is using a fricking digital emulator running in to a super low end Hughes and Ketner head through the clean channel into a Recto cab and he blows my amp away.

The tone I'm going for is the the tone you hear on Machine Head's song "Davidian." Thick, brutal modern metal. Here are my settings:

Channel 3, Modern, bold, diode rectifiers.

Presence - Noon
Bass- 10 oclock
Master - Noon
Mid - 9 oclock
Gain - Noon
Treble - Noon
Main Output - 10 oclock

I have GT-6L6GE-Q power tubes. All of my pre amp tubes are GT-12AX7-Cs. I'm running through a Recto cab with the original V30s. I'm also running 10 decibels of boost and a noise gate. My guitar is an Ibanez Prestige RGA321 with a Duncan Distortion in the bridge position, which is the only pick-up I use. I am not a bedroom/ basement player. I play gigs and practice with a full band on a regular basis - I play loud. So, I'm looking for input from people who play at the same volume levels. No offense to the bedroom/ basement players, but getting a good tone at high volumes and getting a good tone at low volumes are two different things.

So what do I have to do to get my Dual Rec to perform like I need it to? I've been reading through the forums for the last few days and I have some ideas.

What do you guys think about ditching my V30s and replacing them with Celestion G12K-100s? Less speaker break up (equalling less bass flub) and mellower mids?

What about getting rid of the 6L6s and trying EL34s? I've also been reading about people using E34Ls. What's the difference?

I've heard of people using GT-ECC83s in V1. Isn't that just another type of 12AX7? I did some research on the pre-amp tubes I see people recommending on this forum, and basically they are just just weaker tubes than the 12AX7. Does using different pre-amp tubes really make any difference?

Any advice you guys could give me is much appreciated. I don't want to get rid of this head - it's been through a lot with me! I want to try anything I can, but a lot of this stuff is expensive (G12K-100s are $125 each, tubes aren't cheap) and I don't want to waste a lot of money experimenting with stuff that may or may not work. If anybody can let me know whta has worked for them I would be forever gratefull!

 

[mikey383]

The first problem I see is running GT tubes. I have never had any luck with them. I run JJ KT77s in my Dual. I used to run JJ E34Ls, but for the tone you're after, I wouldn't recommend them simply because of their mid structure. I would however, recommend something like the Svetlana Winged Cs, with some EH 12ax's, maybe some JJs if you still feel the amp is too bright.

Your settings look fairly normal, except I would recommend turning down the channel master volume to around 9-10, and using the overall master to compensate. IME the higher the channel master is, the more the mids are pronounced.

I don't really see any need to ditch the V30s. With 4 of them, you're not even close to speaker breakup, so that wouldn't matter. Many people get brutal tones with them, even though they have quite the midrange hump.

With the right tubes and settings, I don't see any reason you couldn't get the tone you're looking for. It's just a matter of experimentation.

 

[Benraldo]

in short, cause I'm sure you'll get tons of advice.

turn your presence down. like, almost off. that's where your ear piercing highs are.
tubescreamer type boost in front, gain low/ volume high.
eq pedal in the loop with the 250hz slider dipped just a lil, helps kill the woof.

your setting are almost the same as mine, albeit I run my mids around 1-2 o clock.

 

[KH Guitar Freak]

Have you tried running your amp thru a power conditioner? If not, I'm pretty sure it would help a little in every problem you've mentioned...

 

[weissach r&d]

the presence control almost to 0 trick does work somewhat for sure. try 34's. go with jj's IMHO. also maybe try a 12at7 in v1 and a balanced 12at or au7 in the phase inverter position. not sure what it is on a dual but my single is v5. you'll have a little less gain on tap but these things oversaturate badly if the gain is dimed any how. the pre amp tubes alone should help some.

 

[94Tremoverb]

Just as an experiment, try using the Vintage or Raw modes. I know this may not be the setting you want, but try it and see what happens - you will have to adjust the rest of the controls too, to get a similar tone. There is a reason I'm suggesting this which I discovered while helping a friend with a similar sort of problem with his Rectoverb - the boomy/sloppy bass in particular, which was bad enough that it made the amp actually continue to resonate after certain notes. It turned out to be a combination of the speaker resonant frequency and the negative feedback loop in the amp's power section being turned off in Modern mode. If you're using V30s it may also react to the natural mid peak of the speakers and make that sound annoying too.

If it does turn out to be the problem, there is a fix for it, but it needs a mod to the amp. For what it's worth the problem with his amp was not speaker, tube, tube type, or power supply related - I tried all that before figuring it out, so I wouldn't spend money on any of these until you've at least tried using the other modes.

 

[Geiri]

You will not be able to fix what is annoying you with the recto, sorry. Either people like the recto or they don't.

A peavey 6550 might be a good choice for uber brutality but keep in mind that the effects loop on those amps is utterly useless. My advise is if you want to stay in the mesa family check out a used MK IV, it's everything that the recto isn't. If you want to stray I suggest that you check out the engl powerball, or the cheaper fireball. endless bottom and brutality. The main difference btw those two is that the powerball has separate eq for cleans and lead channels but the fireball is a single eq amp. And there is more gain on tap on those two than the entire mesa line put together.

I have a mk4 combo and an engl screamer combo so I'm not blowing this out my ass. I've had a recto, stilletto, f 50, express 5:50 and the mk4. For my taste I'm more found of the mesa sound but if I had to choose something other then mesa then it would be Engl all the way.

You can probably find an even trade on a powerball for your recto.

Hope this helps

Geiri

 

[manicsix]

To tighten up your tone, first and foremost, get those 6L6s out of there. Rectos sound way better with EL34s. My single rect. has Tung-sol EL34s & EH 12AX7s and it sounds great, way better than with the stock 6L6s.

Again, the actual cab may be a significant contributor to bad tone.... Are you using a Mesa Standard Recto cab? I would ditch that in favour of a smaller cab (Mesa Traditional, Marshall 1960A) to get rid of some of that flubby, sloppy bass.

Also, if you hate the mid-honk you are hearing, ditch the vintage 30s in favour of a speaker with smoother/less mids, like a G12T-75 or greenback.

Lastly, try the vintage & raw modes (as mentioned) if you haven't already, and throw an overdrive in the mix. I'm not yet happy with the tone I get with modern mode, so I just don't bother using it. I'm a Marshall fan, and thus I enjoy the raw & vintage modes as they you back some of that gritty British tone...

Just as an experiment, try using the Vintage or Raw modes.

I have owned a 3ch Dual Rectifier for two years now, and i'm so sick of the shrill, piercing highs... the annoying, braying mids... the flubby, sloppy bass. I have been fiddling with the EQ non-stop for two years.

I have GT-6L6GE-Q power tubes. All of my pre amp tubes are GT-12AX7-Cs. I'm running through a Recto cab with the original V30s. I'm also running 10 decibels of boost and a noise gate. My guitar is an Ibanez Prestige RGA321 with a Duncan Distortion in the bridge position, which is the only pick-up I use. I am not a bedroom/ basement player. I play gigs and practice with a full band on a regular basis - I play loud. So, I'm looking for input from people who play at the same volume levels. No offense to the bedroom/ basement players, but getting a good tone at high volumes and getting a good tone at low volumes are two different things.

What do you guys think about ditching my V30s and replacing them with Celestion G12K-100s? Less speaker break up (equalling less bass flub) and mellower mids?

What about getting rid of the 6L6s and trying EL34s? I've also been reading about people using E34Ls. What's the difference?

 

[KH Guitar Freak]

The EL34Ls have more headroom than the regular EL34 if I'm not mistaken...

Nevertheless, I still prefer 6L6s in my Roadster than EL34s. I've swapped the stock 6L6s out for Winged C 6L6s. Granted, there is very little difference between the Winged C and stock 6L6s...

I definitely prefer the Mesa Stiletto 4X12 straight cab over the Mesa Rectifier 4X12 straight cab though. Less boomy and less midscooped. Also faster tracking...

 

[XevKai]

I personally cannot stand the three channel series. Mesa muddles too much up when they add all those features, the 2 channel series is far superior and if you can find one to try out, do it. The lead guitarist in my band has a 6505+ and he loved it until we started rehearsing with a drummer full time. Now he's trying to use that worthless effects loop and so much more noisy than me in rehearsal. I give him only a few more months before he goes out and finds a 2 channel dual...

Plus have you ever seen inside of a 6505? It's pretty much a modeling amp with all the IC chips and cheap components.

 

[Nitrobattery]

I think there are a lot of factors to take into consideration. I also have an RGA321, and you have to remember that that thing is more maple than mahogany. It's a VERY bright sounding guitar. That in conjunction with running your presence high, your bass low and your mids pretty scooped...it's easy to see why you're getting a very shrill, lifeless tone. If you're digging that Machine Head tone, let's look at what they're using. Their sound has EMG's written all over it and Rob is notorious for using big mahogany guitars. So more than your amp, you may want to look at your guitar first. I've got dual EMG 85's in my RGA that are considerably thicker and warmer sounding than 81's. They really compliment and balance the brightness of the RGA and really help keep things sounding tight. Before selling the Recto, I'd really recommend a pickup swap first. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

As far as settings and tubes go, Tung-Sol EL34b's would be my recommendation for the power section. I've tried a lot of different tubes and have always liked the tightness of 6L6's, but the crunch and warmth of EL34's. To me, the Tung-Sol EL34b's are the perfect combination of both. You can have a lot of fun experimenting with with different preamp tubes in different positions, but especially if you're playing in a band and are actually turning your amp up, swapping power tubes will make a huge difference and will give you some pretty instant gratification.

Lastly, an overdrive is an absolute must. It'll really tighten that bottom end and smooth out the highs.

I've had two Dual Rectos, but it was long enough ago that I'm a little foggy on what my settings were...but here are my Roadster settings that I use with my RGA. Give them a try and see if they work for you. Again, I'm running EMG 85's and the Roadster is darker than a regular Recto...so you may want to tweak these a little

Bold, Silicon Diodes, Modern

Bass 1 o'clock
Mid 11-12 o'clock
Treble 1 o'clock
Presence 8-9 o'clock
Gain 1-2 o'clock (running your presence lower you'll probably find you'll need to turn the gain knob up a little)

All of this said though, 5150's are awesome amps. It seems like every time I hear a record and think, "man, the guitar tone is killer" there's usually a 5150/6505 going on in the mix. Either way you go I'm sure you'll be happy, but I think you'll be able to coax the tone you're looking for out of the Recto.

 

[fluff191]

Although you have gotten plenty of great advice already, I thought I would throw in my opinion.

I have a 3 Channel Recto with a Bias mod, TAD 6L6GC tubes. The sound is effing fantastic. However, the high end fizzle can NOT be dialed out without modification, which is where my amp is right now. The TAD 6L6 tightened up the low end alot, the Bias mod warmed everything up, and with the mod it will be my dream amp.

Having said that, I have owned 2 5150's and must say they are truly incredible amps. I really miss mine! And if the sound you are indeed going for is the tone off of "Davidian" (which is a 5150), then it may be time to get a 5150. Its really that simple. The only reason I got rid of my 5150 is because it really was not that versatile. But man if you want brutal metal tones, the 5150 is it.

Just my opinion though. But you will never get a Recto to sound like a 5150, and you will not get a Mark IV to sound like a 5150. Just something to think about.

Either way good luck!!

 

[Dominus22]

Thanks for all the input, guys. I've been doing some research and I think I'm going to get a Groove Tubes SAG Marshall High Gain Preamp Tube Kit. It's basically two ECC83Ss that have been tested for optimum gain, transconductance, and current, to put into V1 and V2, which are the gain stages of the preamp. And an MPI (Matched Phase Inverter) 12AX7 for the phase inverter, which in the Dual Rec head is V5. I'm looking at my Mesa owner's manual and it says V3 is for the "boost" function, which I never use, and V4 just drives the effects loop. So, I'm just going to leave the GT-12AX7Cs I already have in those slots alone, since I don't think they will have much influence on my tone.

I'm also going to get four matched GT-E34LSs for my power amp, just to see how they compare to the 6L6s. I'm going to get the ones with a GT rating of 8-10. Which I'm hoping will make them run relatively hot in a Recto, and get similar results to the "bias mod" I keep hearing about.

I'm also going to try, as was suggested, using the Vintage mode on channel 3. Did you guys know that the negative feedback loop for the power amp is disabled when in Modern mode? Fascinating, I had no idea.

If I'm still not satisfied with my sound, I'm going to get four Celestion G12K-100s and put them in my cab, which is a standard Recto slant cab, by the way.

I may not end up sounding exactly like a 5150, but I'll definitely have my own tone. What do you think?

 

[Dominus22]

And, by the way guys, if you're interested in tubes and how they affect your tone - check out this link!

http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/GTlink.html

Great info!

 

[rjf]

Here are the amps to buy in place of the 3 channel recto that will eat that thing up....

1. Framus Cobra! The Framus Cobra is based off of a 3 channel rectifier. It has similar characteristics, but is so much better. There is no amp more Brutal than the Cobra, seriously it has a crazy amount of gain. Very tight bottom end, good effects loop, midi enabled, and a real clean channel. The cleans on the Cobra are wonderfull, and it's plenty loud too. Very similar front panel layout to a 3 channel, again, since it's a hot rodded recto. The Cobra is everything the recto wishes it could be when it grows up.

2. If you really like Machine Head's sound, then the 5150 is obviously a great choice. For that type of brutal metal, I'd take a 5150 over a recto too.

3. Engl Powerball. Super tight bottom end with a clearer hi gain, similar to a Diezel, just not quite as good. The PB is another amp that is super versatile with great cleans. Someone mentioned the possibility of trading your Recto strait across for a Powerball. Never would likely happen, Powerballs always are worth at least a couple hundred more than a 3 channel recto.

Not many people know much about the Framus Cobra so you don't hear about them much at all, but they are awesome amps. If you can first find one and can afford it second, go that route!

I would think trying G12K100's in a rear loaded cab is a waist of time. V30's work well with a rectifier and I believe the sound would get pretty dark in a big rear loaded recto cab with the 100's.

 

[Nitrobattery]

A Cobra and Powerball are kind of going in the opposite direction of what he's looking for. I had a Cobra for a while and absolutely hated it. It basically takes the biggest complaint that most people have about a Recto and multiplied by 10. SUPER fizzy. Plus, after using it at several shows and rehearsals, I couldn't get it to cut through in a live situation very well at all. I figured it just didn't mesh well with the rest of my rig but every other band I've seen use one live seemed to have the same problem. At first, I like most people, was floored by the MASSIVE amounts of low end....which is cool when you're by yourself. In a band situation though, the bass player and kick drum swallow that low end and all you're really left with is a fizzy, sterile mess. To each their own, a lot of people like Cobras, but if he's already annoyed with the fizziness of his Recto he'd hate a Cobra.

I'm not particularly crazy about the Powerball either. I had a Savage 120 that I really liked, but found the Powerball to be pretty sterile and again, didn't sit in a live mix well. The Framus Dragon is awesome though. The build quality on the Framus stuff is a little lacking (especially in its price point) but the Dragon is a killer amp.

After thinking about this some more, if the tone you're after is a 5150, you might as well just go for it. They're killer amps, you can get them cheap, and you'll walk away from it with some extra money in your pocket.

 

[94Tremoverb]

EL34s will tighten up the power section, certainly. But save your money on the 'Matched Phase Inverter' tube. It's pure marketing BS - the phase inverter *circuit* is inherently not matched, so using a matched tube is pointless no matter what anyone tells you. I'm not even sure I'd go for those particular preamp tubes for V1 and V2 - there are a lot of tubes you can buy with good gain and tone that are cheaper than anything sold by Groove Tubes, including some of the less-hyped NOS types. You can even use old *used* tubes if you know what you're looking for (for preamp tubes anyway). In my opinion good old-production tubes throughout make a huge difference and are well worth the money.

If the amp is too boomy and fizzy already you probably don't want G12K-100s. They don't have the same upper-mid spike as the V30s but they do have more high top-end as well as more bottom, and to me they sound buzzier. The V30s are actually quite dark at the extreme high end.

But if you really do want a 5150/6505, there's no reason not to get one - ignore the haters, it's a decent amp like all Peaveys, well-made and reliable. It's probably best not get rid of the Rectifier before you've properly compared the two though... you may be surprised by how close you can get it, although it depends on exactly what sound you're going for.

 

[Geiri]

Dude

them peavey's sure have a wicked sound and if the effects loop isn't a factor for you then maybe thats the one for you.

A friend of mine who has a powerball and an orange 4x12 came to my house yesterday to boast about his amp. He's 10 years younger than me and thinks I'm a dinosaur when it comes to metal. I gave him a cup of espresso while I pulled the 4x12 standard recto cab from the storage room in my apartment. I let him play the combo by itself and he was like meehhh it's a cool little amp but it's old school and not enough low end. I hooked the recto cab and let the MK4 fury loose on him. After a few minutes of playing it was time for some more espresso, so we sit down and I ask him " well what do you think " ?

He looked at me with a hint of shame in his eyes and said " man that 18 year old little combo is no less evil than the pball "

We are planing to meet with both amps on full tilt. It should be fun. The sound sculpting possibility's are near endless with the mk4. So if you choose to stay with mesa just try one out hooked to a 4x12 recto or similar cab. Trust me you'll be surprised.

 

[KH Guitar Freak]

Did I mention that you should run your amp through a power conditioner and/or voltage regulator yet???

 

[rjf]

A Cobra and Powerball are kind of going in the opposite direction of what he's looking for. I had a Cobra for a while and absolutely hated it. It basically takes the biggest complaint that most people have about a Recto and multiplied by 10. SUPER fizzy.

No offence, but did you have it EQ'd right? When I first got mine, I didn't like it much at all for MONTHS! Same problem, very fizzy like the rectifier.

No other amp that I've played is as sensitive to all the settings as a Cobra. You turn one knob a 1/4 turn and the sound is completely different.

The trick to getting rid of all that fizz is diming the channel volume, not to 7 or 8, but strait to 10. COMPLETELY different sound and completely looses the fizz. You make one small adjustment on that amp and the sound is drastically changed, like no other amp.