Short plate vs long plate. Common cathode vs common anode

[Guitarzan]

Dude...That's sooo wrong.

 

[fatboy135]

I´m from spain. could you speak a bit of spanish???

 

[Guitarzan]

Yo quero Paz Vega! How's that?

 

[fatboy135]

I hate Paz Vega. She gets a lot of money doing sex films, showing her tits and pussy. She thinks that she is an actress, but she only is something to ****.
Here in Spain we have some pseudo-actress that gets a lot of money eating cocks.
Regular people prefers to earn money with a decent job, and Paz Vega and that kind of pseudo actress is a false image of Spain.
So don´t think that we are like Penelope Cruz or Paz Vega, we prefer to job from 8 to 23:00 P.M to do some kind of **** films.

 

[Timbre Wolf]

What's the topic of this thread, now??

 

[Guitarzan]

Spanish actresses/porn stars! C'mon Gordo, you have to admit Paz is HOT!!!!

 

[fatboy135]

ok sorry for the offtopic

 

[Russ]

I have found longer plates to be more musical whereas the shorter plates tend to be more stable. Long plates with extra mica spacers are nice. Short plates with musical qualities are nice too. Unfortunately there are not many short plates with musical qualities more often than not they are just gainy tubes. There again in a Mesa you don't need as musical of a tube, it is not a garden variety vintage Marshall. Older simpler designs gain the most from the more musical tubes. Newer designs gain from consistent gain in older tubes. Here again the long plate is just prone to microphonics. Maybe heatshrink them like the SPAX7s. In fact that is an idea I might try to help make some of my vintage tubes last a little longer.

 

[Timbre Wolf]

...in a Mesa you don't need as musical of a tube...

I agree with most of what you've said, Russ. But I have to respectfully disagree on this point: Boogie and other new designs all benefit from tube improvements - its astounding how well my Triaxis has responded to tube changes. If tube changes did not vastly improved it, I'd have dumped my Triaxis long ago, and I wouldn't have been such a raving tube-loony.

I do agree about the correlation between short plates and poor sonics. Most short-plate 12AX7s have nowhere near the clarity of old long-plate 12AX7s. Comparing long-plate Mullard 12AX7 with a short-plate Mullard 12AX7A and one can easily notice the loss of clarity and frequency extension from the later-production, short-plate version. One notable exception is the '70s Tesla (not JJ) E83CC; a frame-grid, short-plate 12AX7 whose clarity is exceptional.

And I might disagree with the short-plate = high gain, long-plate = lower gain statement if I knew you were talking about true gain, and not the breakup characteristics. The Tesla E83CC above has high gain, but breaks up later. RFT ECC83 is another short-plate with high gain, and it breaks up very early. Mullard long-plates break up much later than RCA or Raytheon long black-plates, but the gain (signal amplitude) is comparable.

I find it most intriguing to discover the unique character of a tube type, and then find just the right place to use it.

- T

 

[fatboy135]

As ever, I´m agree and disagree with some statements of TW.
Hear my arguments and discuss then:
- The most importants sonical features becomes from a good electronics design. You could improve your tone with good tubes but the best Mullard will never do that a valvestate sounds like a TA with chinese tubes.
- The stateman short plate=high gain.... sorry man but that is totally true. And tube makers know it. As anybody knows large plates usually becomes in microphonics issues, that kind issues increase exponential with the mu ( tube gain ) so when a manufacturer decided to do a new tube he gets into the battle between the gain and the microphonics to do a good commercial tube.
- You need some musical details on your boogie, but remember it isn´t a Manley preamp. Think that when you are just in the middle of a gig maybe your musical details will be atenuate by the shouting and laughing people.
I think that TW is a very purist man, who likes to play at home jamming with friends and he wants the best for his tone. But I´m a rude boy that plays on pubs where everybody are drunken and they are not able to hear any difference from a mullard than a sovtek :lol:
This is sad but true

 

[Russ]

TW and fatboy- Your statements are all true. Let me further delve into what I was trying to say in the abridged short form.

My statement about short plate equating more gain was a generalization because of the more stable characteristic at gain levels. It was not to be taken as a short plate will always have a higher gain mu than a long plate by any means. In most cases the actual mu of a current tube is far below the 1950's spec. I know that there were more than a few long plate designs that will never be touched by today's shorter plated varieties. In fact, the black plate of the 50's is the standard by which all new tubes are compared as far as gain and transconductance are measured. There were long plate varieties that overshadowed the RCA black plate by far. I was making only a generalization with consideration for stabilization. Sorry if I sounded like I was out of my mind.

As far as real world applications go, absolutely, use a rugged tube that sounds decent. Do not take your prized jewels out gigging. Most will not be able to discern that you are not using Mullards. There are a lot of dynamics that come into play in a venue. Yes, the crowd is one as well as their perception (bad as it may be after a few drinks). There are noise phasing issues and cancellation. There is the physical shape of the venue and acoustics therein. There is even the construction of the venue itself that may deaden your tone or even absorb it instead of reflect it. For the sake of longevity of your high dollar tubes, take some working class tubes out when you gig.

Again the statement about Mesas not needing as musical of tubes was a generalization based upon the fact that Mesa didn't design their products to be used around NOS. In fact they used their own tubes for the designs. This was to ensure that their sound was to remain relatively consistent with the use of their tubes. There is nothing that says you can't improve on your own personal tone by changing out tubes. I was merely stating that you didn't need them as much as an older design that was created when NOS was current production. In some years if tube quality should continue to fall off as it had, you may find that the designs continue to degrade their starting point as far as from where they begin to design their amps. It is sad but true. Amp manufacturers can only design around current production tubes in hopes for longevity of the design and for consistent sound thus maintaining sales and fewer product liability issues. If everyone had to buy Mullards there would be fewer people buying the particular designs requiring it.

If we want we can get completely technical here and spill out every spec of every tube in comparison side by side but that would get too dry for my taste and require more time than I am willing to invest in a post. The specs are all online if you so wish to search them out. I thought I would just add some quick input into some noteable differences as general guidelines as quick thoughts on the topic at hand. Sorry if I started a little fire here. I only meant to help...

 

[fatboy135]

totally agree, if you are a jazz player, giging on pubs with experiment audience, take the best of your amp with a mullards, but if you will be covering sex pistols take the classical sovtek and begin to hit audience

 

[Guitarzan]

...you'll always find me out to lunch, we're out on lunch, oh we're so pretty, oh so pretty we're vacant... Ummm....just playing some Sex Pistols....Nothing to see here...move along...move along.

 

[Timbre Wolf]

As ever, I´m agree and disagree with some statements of TW.

I agree that we disagree ... and agree :wink: most of the time!

Hear my arguments and discuss then:
- The most importants sonical features becomes from a good electronics design. You could improve your tone with good tubes but the best Mullard will never do that a valvestate sounds like a TA with chinese tubes.

Completely agree with this, Roberto(?)! I'm just saying that I've seen the light, and know that a good thing can be improved. But its not just with amps and tubes: pickups, speakers, cabs, even picks make a difference. None of this hardware is a substitute for spirit (attitude, soul, etc.), though!

- The stateman short plate=high gain.... sorry man but that is totally true. And tube makers know it. As anybody knows large plates usually becomes in microphonics issues, that kind issues increase exponential with the mu ( tube gain ) so when a manufacturer decided to do a new tube he gets into the battle between the gain and the microphonics to do a good commercial tube.

I understand that the military's needs in development of vacuum tubes was towards reliability, often at the sacrifice of sonic qualities. Lives were on the line, and we shouldn't kid ourselves that they had us freaky guitarists in mind.

But I still disagree with the statement that short-plate=higher gain than long-plate conterparts. These tubes were all made to conform to electrical specs, within a range of variation. Tubes made for non-military use (i.e. post-'70s production, which are almost exclusively short-plate) didn't need to conform as much to these specs as closely, as no-one's life is on the line. Consequently, gain in newer-production 12AX7, is not as predictable as with '50s - '60s production. And let's not get gain (i.e. signal aplitude) mixed up with breakup characteristics. I can cite the example of long black-plate Sylvanias having later breakup than long black-plate Raytheons, but they've got comparable transconductance (relates to gain). Again, I just have to come back to individual tube type characteristics; there is no generalization.

I do agree with the general association between long-plate 12AX7 and microphonics potential. This has seldom been a problem for me in my Triaxis, but the physical vibration is more intense in combo amps, so that should be considered. I know that microphonics has been a common problem with current-production Ei (long-plate) 12AX7, even more so than with old '50s long-plate 12AX7s, which shows that there's a build-quality problem with Ei.

- You need some musical details on your boogie, but remember it isn´t a Manley preamp. Think that when you are just in the middle of a gig maybe your musical details will be atenuate by the shouting and laughing people.

I agree with this, and I hope they're laughing while they're shouting. :lol:

The angle you're missing here is that I can tell the difference, in tone and feel. My playing is effected by that difference, and if its better to me, my performance improves. The dynamics of tube response are of utmost importance to me. And I often play on the edge from clean to expressive overdrive - that's what better tubes allow me to do. I wouldn't be satisfied without that capability.

Here's another secret about me, which relates feel: part of my formula for a successful performance is to wear comfortable shoes! No kidding, it makes a difference!! Gotta play from the sole!

I think that TW is a very purist man, who likes to play at home jamming with friends and he wants the best for his tone. But I´m a rude boy that plays on pubs where everybody are drunken and they are not able to hear any difference from a mullard than a sovtek :lol:
This is sad but true

I recently saw David Gilmour's performance, and I can tell that he uses Mullard EL34 in his amps. Such stunningly beautiful tone! He's in the position where he can afford to stock them and have spares, and trust his roadies will handle his gear with care. If you're renting gear on tour, forget all this NOS b.s. - you get what you get. I've played countless club shows, for over a decade, shlepping my own gear (carefully), and would not hesitate to use NOS tubes (they seem to be more durable, in general, anyway). Why? Again, because I can feel the difference, and it is important to my playing style. If I was just pegging the gain in my amp most the time, the increased compression and distortion would probably prevent me from noticing much of a difference.

As for the Sex Pistols' Bollocks album - I enjoy that quite a bit, and even enjoy playing the way Steve Jones did. Don't kid yourselves that that was a raw or crude recording. The guitar tones were highly-engineered, and the production was very calculated. Here's a quote from the producer, Chris Thomas, about how the multi-layered and broadly-staged guitar sounds were tracked:

"Anarchy has something like a dozen guitars on it; I sort of orchestrated it, double-tracking some bits and separating the parts and adding them, et cetera … It was quite labored."

In short, I believe the efforts pay off.

- T

 

[Timbre Wolf]

My statement about short plate equating more gain was a generalization because of the more stable characteristic at gain levels. It was not to be taken as a short plate will always have a higher gain mu than a long plate by any means.

We're in complete agreement on this. The microphonics issue can be a problem with high-"gain" settings, and I'd agree that short-plate 12AX7s, in general, will be less microphonic in that case. I don't thing you're out of your mind, at all.

Do not take your prized jewels out gigging. Most will not be able to discern that you are not using Mullards.

I also agree about the sonic mayhem of a gig. And I agree that few audience members can distinguish the difference in quality. Spirit rules at a gig, and, in my experience, a performer can come across better with crappy gear and a winning attitude than with stellar gear and a losing attitude.

Again the statement about Mesas not needing as musical of tubes was a generalization based upon the fact that Mesa didn't design their products to be used around NOS. In fact they used their own tubes for the designs. This was to ensure that their sound was to remain relatively consistent with the use of their tubes.

...Amp manufacturers can only design around current production tubes in hopes for longevity of the design and for consistent sound thus maintaining sales and fewer product liability issues.

I understand your reasoning on this, Russ, but I've got to strongly disagree. The design is to electrical specs, and those specs apply to NOS tubes. Mesa's product testing was likely done with their own tubes, but I can guarantee that they didn't sit down and say "gee, what can we do with these inarticulate and spitty Chinese and Sovtek 12AX7s we have now." There's nothing about current amp designs that precludes use of NOS tubes, nor do new amps sound worse when using a tube it was not "designed around" (unless its a different tube type that doesn't meet the spec).

Sorry if I started a little fire here. I only meant to help...

Fire? I'm smiling, and I love a good discussion. Hope I haven't given you the impression that you, or anyone else, has something to be sorry about - certainly not my intention, and I apologize if I've come across that way.

We really need that "cheers" emoticon, with the two clinking beers. Anyway, cheers!

- T

 

[fatboy135]

there is no problem, that is a forum to discuss and share opinions, TW and I were very different with hardness points of view. There is not any problem, everyone has his owns ideas.

 

[Guitarzan]

there is no problem, that is a forum to discuss and share opinions, TW and I were very different with hardness points of view. There is not any problem, everyone has his owns ideas.

Russ...dude, that's what we all do here, is get each others perspectives and perhaps learn (or in some cases teach) each other about our experiences...I agree with FatBoy's quote... However, Fatboy dislikes Paz Vega...I Love Paz Vega :twisted: .... I don't hate him... He's a cool dude. Just respect each other and any disagreements between members here...It's all good.

 

[fatboy135]

yeah that is true, in that forum we are enough smart to share opinions without any war of words, anyway paz vega is really hot but I don´t like that kind of people who earn the money showing tits and pussy, I prefer the method of bob from eurotubes selling tubes

 

[Guitarzan]

See, that's what I'm talkin' about...How goes it Roberto?

 

[fatboy135]

please share your girlfriends of verde, we want to meet them . We can exchange some photos of paz vega for some photos of your girlfriends