Screw the tube kits....

[MusicManJP6]

JJ's 12ax7's were way harsh in my Rectoverb... i'm still on the prowl for some good preamp tubes. KT77's are cool in the power section for a change though!

 

[nomad100hd]

Did you get the high gain JJ 12AX7's or the regular? At least bob from eurotube separates them. Most places probably don't and i don't know if there is a real difference. The JJ's don't seem to be harsh in my Mod'd valve junior or nomad. The nomad is a darker amp, and the VJ i adjusted for taste.

I did try the JJ long plate 12ax7 and it made my nomad sound real vintage and brighter. Also gave more of the dynamic feel i get from the VJ, i want to try it again the room i played in had a lot of sound absorption going on and i crank the amp like crazy and still felt quiet.

 

[seajay]

I'm a little late to the party here, but my $0.02...

I don't like a Tung Sol in V1 at all. It's too gritty and grainy. I like more clarity. As for the "tube kits" that Doug sells, it's just a marketing ploy IMHO. I talked to the guy on the phone for a while, and he tried recommending me 6L6's for my Stiletto ACE. I had to tell him it doesn't have the option of switching to 6L6's.

When I asked what he would recommend for my musical style, he gave me the same routine song and dance he gives everyone. When I asked WHY he chose those particular tubes, his only viable response was "What if I sold you 5 of the same tube and you didn't like it? Then you're stuck with 5 of a tube you don't like." Really? Well how am I supposed to even isolate what tube is giving me trouble or a tone I don't care for since they're ALL different? It basically boiled down to him saying he had no rhyme or reason why he chose those tubes, just he didn't want to give someone 5 of the same tube.

He said that he though the Tung Sol was the best overall tube though, and that's why he'd put it in V1. Well...if it's the best overall tube...why wouldn't I want it every slot if you're telling me it's going to be better than anything else I stuck in there? If you go to replace the tires on your car and the salesman says to you...

"This is the BEST tire we have. Overall, it works best on all road conditions, better than any other we have. It's the all-around best model in my opinion. So, for your car...I'd recommend we stick ONE of those in the front left...BUT, then we use Brand X over here on on front right. Oh, and maybe let's try a Brand Y in the back left and this winter tire, Brand Z on the back right in case you're ever driving in snow."

If he told you that, you're going to look at him like he's an idiot and say "Umm, no. I want 4 of the first brand you said was best overall." But for some reason, many people will let a guy reccommend a random set of tubes for no reason than to have something different in the other slots, despite him self proclaiming them all to be an overall "inferior" tube. I don't get it... :lol:

Sorry but your analogy is stupid. On most cars for regular street driving, you want a matched set of four tires. It usually provides the best & most predictable handling.

As was already pointed out, each preamp slot in an amp serves different functions. Maybe what Doug was alluding to is that typically the V1 preamp tube has the largest effect on tone. Therefore, he defaults the Tung Sol as the V1 because it is quietest and sounds best. But by providing the tube "kits," you are left with more options to experiment with. Who knows? Someone may like the JJ or the Chinese tube better in V1. It never hurts to have a variety of tubes on hand to experiment or for backups.

Personally, I think it's dumb to change all of the preamp tubes at once. Regarding preamp tubes, I'm of the philosophy that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Any time I have changed all preamp tubes at once, the tone has suffered. I would change the phase inverter when you change the power tubes because supposedly, the phase inverter gets the most wear & tear out of the preamp tubes.

If I'm going to swap preamp tubes for tone experimentation, I'm going to stick to the V1 tube. Beyond that I'm only going to change preamp tubes in the other positions if they are microphonic or noisy.

 

[SBG200]

When I asked what he would recommend for my musical style, he gave me the same routine song and dance he gives everyone. When I asked WHY he chose those particular tubes, his only viable response was "What if I sold you 5 of the same tube and you didn't like it? Then you're stuck with 5 of a tube you don't like." Really? Well how am I supposed to even isolate what tube is giving me trouble or a tone I don't care for since they're ALL different? It basically boiled down to him saying he had no rhyme or reason why he chose those tubes, just he didn't want to give someone 5 of the same tube.

I contacted him a couple weeks ago and it was the same exact thing--the same stupid random combination of preamp tubes that is listed for the "Mesa Kit" on his website. (Yeah, as if ALL Mesa amps will sound best with the same exact combination of preamp tubes.) Like you said, I guarantee he just randomly picked 5 different tubes in an effort to come off as smart or innovative or something--like he has the magic secret to good tone. Snake oil takes on many different forms. The whole thing is silly. Also some other issues came up in our discussion that led me to conclude this guy is somewhat incompetent. Goes to show that with the internet, anybody can have a "business" nowadays. Ordered from The Tube Store instead. Much better experience.

Gotta hand it to Doug though--he has lots of guys eating out of his hand.

 

[Dead Moon Rising]

I contacted him a couple weeks ago and it was the same exact thing--the same stupid random combination of preamp tubes that is listed for the "Mesa Kit" on his website. (Yeah, as if ALL Mesa amps will sound best with the same exact combination of preamp tubes.) Like you said, I guarantee he just randomly picked 5 different tubes in an effort to come off as smart or innovative or something--like he has the magic secret to good tone. Snake oil takes on many different forms. The whole thing is silly. Also some other issues came up in our discussion that led me to conclude this guy is somewhat incompetent. Goes to show that with the internet, anybody can have a "business" nowadays. Ordered from The Tube Store instead. Much better experience.

Gotta hand it to Doug though--he has lots of guys eating out of his hand.

man thats harsh, just becasue you didn't like the tubes he picked doesn't mean he's incompetent. Lots of people are happy with his tube kits, just becasue you weren't doesn't mean ****.

 

[trem]

He's a nice guy, knowledgable and stands behind his stuff. From what I gather, not as familiar with Mesa as I hoped for unfortunately. I buy stuff from him, but I know the "disclaimers" also. The tube "kit" is not for everyone. No need to bash him.

 

[rvschulz]

i bought Doug's tube kit whe i retubed my .50 cal + a couple of years ago. That sucker work up. I know that the old tubes were probably worn out some, but i started having outsiders approach me after gigs with appreciation for the tone.

i agree that it probaly won't work exactly for ecvery amp, but it's a good place to start.

i still use 2 of those tubes in my LSC. I am retubing the Mark III right now and have a Sovtek LPS coming in for V5 - i think that was a key ingredient in the .50 cal retubing. I broke it. :roll:

 

[SydMark11]

I had his kit inmy DR and and had people actually approach me and ask about my setup..they never did before...maybe just a chance. Anyway, I liked the tone I had after the complete swap...and I just bought a single and bought another set for it. NOW I can drive the living HELL out of it

 

[stompboxfreak72]

FWIW I have bought JJ's and Doug's tubes as well and I think the overall cost of experimentation is not worth the end result. Don't get me wrong...some tubes will sound better to you than others but you are not going to change the sonic nature of your amp by using different brands of tubes. Ive used them all and I ended up going back to stock Mesa tubes. Mostly because I spent so much time swapping and noodling that it became a huge distraction for me.

I've decided to spend more time playing and less time searching. My DR sounds like a DR no matter what tubes I stick in it.

 

[Adambomb]

I just ordered the Mesa preamp kit from Doug's Tubes. I can't wait to install them and hear what the difference is. My old preamp tubes are about 4 years old. I will re-post when I play these tubes and let you know what I think.

 

[stompboxfreak72]

FWIW I have bought JJ's and Doug's tubes as well and I think the overall cost of experimentation is not worth the end result.

The only statement I would agree with.

Don't get me wrong...some tubes will sound better to you than others but you are not going to change the sonic nature of your amp by using different brands of tubes.

Nothing can be further from the truth.

Ive used them all and I ended up going back to stock Mesa tubes. Mostly because I spent so much time swapping and noodling that it became a huge distraction for me.

I feel bad that you were duped into thinking you would get much of a quality between the different modern tubes. That's why it became distracting. Modern preamp tubes as of late have been failing us compared to our good tube makers of 40 years ago. I agree.. You might as well have gone back to the Mesas given the choices of JJs or the modern tube kit..

I've decided to spend more time playing and less time searching. My DR sounds like a DR no matter what tubes I stick in it.

There is a difference between a good sounding DR and a phenomenal sounding DR.. You won't reach that phenomenal point with todays modern tubes. It's cool that you've decided to keep playing. But I find it sad that you've also decided to keep yourself uneducated to your preamp in the process. Three of the right NOS tubes would educate you real fast. But you have to be willing to pay the price.

Your DR would still sound like a DR.. Only a whole lot better than you've ever heard it if you've never tried NOS. It absolutely does matter what preamp tubes you put in your amp. It's been proven that you can change the sonic qualities of your preamp dramatically just by changing 1-tube.

What ? Another tube snob ? On this board ? No. Cannot be !

Sorry you find me uneducated. You learned all that from one post about not hearing a difference between JJ's or Doug's tubes that I found worth chasing. Wow. What powers of self righteousness and observation you possess.

 

[trem]

IMHO using old production tubes is just another shade in your tone palette. It's a fact that those tubes are better produced than current ones, and hence generally last longer. The only hindrance I think is price, well, if you're fixated on only Telefunkens and Mullards that is.

I won a few RCA 12AX7As last week and a few Tungsram ECC83s for slightly less than 20 dollars each. At these prices, I don't think there's any reason not to try them. Doug sells the New Sensor Mullard 12AX7 for 18 bucks in comparison.

I was sceptical about this as well. Now I can really say that there's definitely a difference, a significant one at that - not something an EQ can change. Now whether you like this change or not, that's a different matter.

 

[212Mavguy]

+1 for trem, +1 for shredd. peace.

 

[prsman88]

Just to revisit this post. Can't speak for the JJ's, can only speak for the modern mesa russians.

Old Stock Tubes without a doubt have improved my tone. It took some tests in my DR as far as different tubes in different slots, but my sound is 10x better.

http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?t=27331

Cleans are cleaner, more headroom, more chime.
Distortion is smoother, not so buzzsaw, but still retains its aggression.
My amp articulates my notes much better now, much more usable gain!

Before = Guitar - Maxon - Amp (HATED my DR by itself, very disappointed)
After = Guitar - Amp (Very happy, amp is responsive, great tone)


The Key is research. Know WHAT you are buying before you buy it and WHY it will help your sound. Not just because someone says it will in a tube kit. (not bashing tube kits) Ask questions.

"What about a mullard or rca will make my amp sound better than now"
"Where is it most effective and how will the TUBES BEFORE AND AFTER it affect the way it sounds.

Don't be closed mined. But at the same time don't take people like Shredd and TimbreWolf and others as being snobs. They stand by their tubes, research, and facts just like Doug or Eurotubes does!


And remember, Tone is subjective!!!

haha, my 0.02 worth

 

[CoG]

What I find interesting is that my friend's Roadster or the Rec Pre I used to have are MUCH more responsive to preamp tube changes than my Mark IIIs. On those two amps I could fiddle around all day (too bad it's so **** hard to get at the Roadster's tubes!), though on my Rec Pre I found that the best *balance* for Ch1 and Ch2 was often stock Mesa tubes.

One of the negative things people say about Marks is that they sound the same no matter what guitar you plug into them-- I don't have enough of a range of guitars to say, personally. I think there's something to that, though, the Mark "voicing" is very strong.

On my Mark IIIs all I really hear when swapping V1-V3 is is the amount of gain a tube has, the actual tonal changes are pretty minimal within the overall Mark III voicing. The single biggest difference I can make with one tube is actually V5.

 

[CoG]

Yeah, the PI, check out my separate post on it and the power tubes I tried. I haven't come down either way on whether balanced is an issue or not. I don't think this tube is balanced, previous one wasn't either. The 4024 is a 12AT7. I always use 12AT7s in the PI because the last thing you need in a MkIII is another place to get gain.

The MkIII makes gain differences even between different 12AX7 types very obvious, because you have a dial for each tube (Volume for V1 and V2 and Lead Drive for V3) so it's easy to tell what's changed between tubes!

 

[Gtr_Pkr]

Yeah, the PI, check out my separate post on it and the power tubes I tried. I haven't come down either way on whether balanced is an issue or not. I don't think this tube is balanced, previous one wasn't either. The 4024 is a 12AT7. I always use 12AT7s in the PI because the last thing you need in a MkIII is another place to get gain.

The MkIII makes gain differences even between different 12AX7 types very obvious, because you have a dial for each tube (Volume for V1 and V2 and Lead Drive for V3) so it's easy to tell what's changed between tubes!

Just a suggestion....If you find the 12AT7 not giving you enough gain, you may want to try a 12AY7. It is b/n a 12AT7 and a 5751 (another great tube to play w/ in the preamp).

 

[nwoforlif]

I personally didn't find that post to be wise at all.

"some tubes will sound better to you than others but you are not going to change the sonic nature of your amp by using different brands of tubes. Ive used them all and I ended up going back to stock Mesa tubes."

That's just simply untrue and misleading.

First of all, In order to have "used them all" you would have to spend a fortune. So obviously he means that he's tried a bunch of modern tubes and was disappointed. So was I at one time..

But when it's done properly with NOS tubes, I can dramatically change the sonic nature of an amp in 5-minutes just by using preamp tubes alone.

This is the response I got from another member of this forum in a PM.

"I am very impressed. When I turned it on it was on the clean channel and I was so impressed with the first chord I struck that I continued to twist knobs and the improvements kept coming. Then off to the lead channel. I am totally blown away at the different amp that I have now. I can not put into words the satisfaction that I have with your tube choice. "

All I did was sell him 5-NOS preamp tubes. But they were specific brands and types strategically placed to accommodate his music style and the amp he uses.

While I do agree that practicing and playing your guitar is #1 priority. It sure does help things if your amp sounds pimp. And it all starts with your preamp.

Anytime you'd like to give it a try yourself Rabies, let me know. I'd be glad to help. There's no shame in having a pimp sound in your preamp. A few Telefunkens here and there mixed with JJs won't do it. However, those Telefunkens can be strategically placed with other NOS tubes to dramatically change the sonic nature of your amp for the better.

By the way, putting $700 worth of Telefunkens in your preamp isn't wise to do either in my opinion. I could spend $100 and my preamp would sound much better than that.

Shredd6 is SO RIGHT!!! I spent $90US for 5 NOS preamp tubes and my DR rips your face off, chews it up and throws it up! The most dramatic change in my dual rectifier sound was by changing the preamp tubes to NOS tubes in the right order. This cost included a telefunken 12ax7 smooth plate. This proves you can spend less than $100 and your guitar will rip your face off like Metallica's guitars do. I also want to play more because my DR has the on fire tone I was looking for. Isn't that what I bought it for!

Look at it this way new modern mesa preamp tubes are $70-$80 for 5. For $10 more I got the sound I wanted. Also spending $700 on telefunken tubes is plain stupid. These are newbies that need to practice their technique on how to play guitar not expect their amp to to do 90% of the work.

NWOFORLIF