Roadster - Need more compression - Help

[Bruno Petrucci]

Hi guys

I'm new in this forum. I've been reading a lot of your topics and posts for about an year. Great people and forum, by the way. :wink: I'm from Portugal.

So, I have a Dual Rectifier Roadster. It's a great amp, no doubt about it. However, I've been asking myself if this is the right amp for me. I like the whole amp a LOT, except in one thing: the lead sounds. The clean is fantastic, the rythms are great and the crunch... well, I prefer the Marshall crunch, but this is fine.
Now, I know that this is not an amplifier issue, it is mine! It's my way of playing and taste. I prefer high gain settings with a lot of compression. Just to give you an idea of what I am saying, I love the Diezel VH4 high gain channels. I tried a Mark IV a long ago but I remember that I liked it very much.

Right now I know what you're thinking: "go buy a Mark IV or V". Am I wrong? :?: The thing is that it is not very easy and cheap to get a Mesa Boogie here in Portugal. And overall I like the Roadster. If I could get an high gain setting with enough compression to deal with my high speed solos, then it would be the perfect amp for me.

So, I know that you will tell me to get an overdrive in front as a boost, but which one? I've been readin a lot on this and I know that the Maxon OD808 is very famous around. I tried one and the goods is that it really keeps the original sound. However, although it really makes a difference, I found that it just wasn't enough. Not enough compression.

What would you recomend on me? I'm thinking about a Fulltone OCD or a BB Preamp or even a Tube Screamer.

Just to finnish, I need to know the year of my amp. The serial is: VR-002971

Thanks in advance

 

[ibanez4life SZ!]

It's try a BB preamp...might get you more compression.

Did you try different settings on the Maxon? I run channel 3 vintage with gain at 1:00, and boosted with a Maxon OD808, and I get a GREAT fluid and compressed lead tone.

EL-34s helped a lot too!

Eric

 

[Bruno Petrucci]

Thanks Eric

I spent some time with the Maxon. As I said, I did note a difference. The legato was so much easier and yes, it added some compression. But I was expecting a little more. For my shred type the Roadster itself it's just too loose. It gets really hard to play fast. Not that the notes are missed in the flow but every slight change in the pick attack is noted in sound. And I mix the alternate picking with some legato occasionally so it is really dificult to make the notes "sing" similar.
I also have a JMP-1 and even if I want I can't use the two units and not compare both. And the JMP-1 sound is much more compressed, just as I want. Of course the Roadster is so much better in alll the other parts.

So you are saying that the BB adds more compression than the other overdrive units, right?

 

[emperor_black]

Not enough compression.

just get a compressor pedal. that's what those are for. I had a Boss CS-3. just sold it. It has a 'sustain' knob. set that beyond 12 o'clock and the tone becomes fat, compressed and all goody-goody. But, I got myself a Mark IV and I look at the pedal and I look at the mark and tell the mark, "play nice, now and say goodbye to the pedal". :lol:

But a compressor adds a lot of hiss and noise at high levels so be forewarned. The diamond compressor (from what I've read on the TGP forums) is supposed to be the quietest of the lot. Also, the keeley compressor gets a lot of kudos. Good luck!

 

[Bruno Petrucci]

Thanks emperor_black

But an overdrive is a 2 in 1: I could get a more compressed sound and a boost on my high gain channels. You see, these days I play in 2 different projects: one as a solo musician (kind of Petrucci, vai, Timmons) and the other is rock/metal progressive. So I need the extra boost too. I tried the compressor on my Rocktron Xpression and it didn't get it. Also everyone keeps saying that an overdrive is a need to a rectifier.

I have the amplifier for an year now and I am not convinced. I really count on your help here.

Just for you to know: I've been playing or the last 15 years, I'm not a begginer, but I'm in a struggle with this amp. And I really want to give it one more try.

 

[emperor_black]

The compressor can act like a boost too. For the longest time that I was using the compressor pedal, (i was the lead guitarist in a band) I was using it to smoothen out my playing (that's mostly what a compressor does ) and increasing its 'level' to act like a boost to my distortion pedals. I am using passive pickups and distortion pedals (and amps) like a hard-hitting pickup like the actives. You probably know all this anyway. Increasing the level made the passive's sound louder. But without breakup thus sounding good even for playing clean. With an OD, there is some breakup in the pedal itself and hence cleans suffer unless you turn them off and before you know it, you're tap-dancing! :lol:

About the rocktron expression's compressor, how were you placing the compressor in the chain? Before the preamp or after? Compressor after distortion does not sound good.

 

[Bruno Petrucci]

I understand. But the compressor does not tightens the sound as I want. It just compresses the limits of your playing, right? It does not make the notes sound closer to each others.
Now, you're very right on the tap-dancing. To be honest, I never really liked even the idea of using distortion or overdrive pedals in this kind of amp. Such an expensive amp should do anything by itself: WRONG! Now I know it.
So I do need to turn the overdrive off I know. And it doesn't make me happy at all.

I use the compressor in the loop as I like to use the unit on it (mostly because of the other effects).

 

[emperor_black]

I understand. But the compressor does not tightens the sound as I want. It just compresses the limits of your playing, right? It does not make the notes sound closer to each others.

Ah, I dont undertand what you're asking. In layman's language (the only one that I understand), a compressor makes loud notes softer and soft notes louder. When I have the compressor on, I can hit all the strings with my heavy pick real hard, and yet there wont be a LOUD sound. If my pick attack is hard or soft, the sound comes out very even. That's why compressor sound best for strumming guitars. Vocalists use it almost always. If they dont, and they shout into the mic, you can go deaf. :lol:

I use the compressor in the loop as I like to use the unit on it (mostly because of the other effects).

This is where you're having the problem. Like I said, the compressor post distortion really sounds bad. If you really want to use the compressor along with the distortion of your amp, your best bet is the 4 cable method. I just posted about it in a thread two minutes ago. Its a proven way to work. But in some cases, people feel the multi-fx unit sucks tone. http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=41418

 

[Bruno Petrucci]

That's exactly what I meant about the function of the compressor. I just didn't expressed it correctly. But when I say "compression" it's not that kind of compression. It's what makes the notes to be closer together, to ease the fast playing.
I feel that this is not new to you. Let's say, the Mark IV is a more compressed amp than the Rectifier. The last is more loose. With the Mark the leads are more liquid, fluid... compressed.
I'm wondering if I can get closer to that with my Roadster.

 

[TimeSignature]

Honestly man, you should consider a different amp when you can afford it.

The Roadster is too expensive of an amp to not be happy with the lead tones. I was never able to get a good lead sound out of mine, hopefully you will figure it out.

For the time being:

Im not sure that you are truly looking for compression. Most overdrive pedals (Maxon, Wylde OD, Fulltone OD, tubescreamer, Bad Monkey, etc) will tighten up your sound and let you dial the gain back a bit to combat the fizzyness of the Roadster while adding a little more grit. Just make sure you crank the volume on the OD pedal while leaving the gain at almost zero! Adjust the treble or bass if your pedal has one to your taste.

You may also want to try different speakers.

If you'd like to stick with Boogie, buy a Mark V, you wont need any more compressions or OD pedals.

Good luck.

 

[Blaklynx]

Try MI Audio Tubezone pedal, the one with 6 knobs on it. I have the first version of it, the one with big chrome knobs. There is a new version with 4 smaller knobs and two large knobs.

Sensitive tone controls, takes time to learn and adjust it (almost as bad as a Mesa amp!)

This pedal can have a lot of bottom end if required so an EQ 'may' be required after it. The bright control and tone control are sensitive and work well together, as do the other controls. I think it has an internal presence pot, too, that may need adjusting. I think it has a mid pot, I can't remember at the moment. Overall, a very good pedal. Check youtube (search MI audio tubezone) I think user burger666 has a very good video of it

Sometimes I use a BB preamp or OCD before it and cascade the two pedals. Works really well. Solo until your fingers bleed. Legato, hammer-ons, pull-offs, sweep picking....... no problems.

If you adjust the tones controls on the pedal(s) and on your guitar, you could get the bridge pickup to almost have the same tonal qualities as a front pickup. Very cool for solos. A very rounded tone without harshness in the top end.

Also try to cascade 2 pedals like this (which is what I think you 'may' need to do) OCD/BBpreamp>Tubezone>amp. If you don't want to tap dance run in a looper pedal.

See if you can try/test this pedal. MI Audio is Australian made, too... (I'm from Oz... :mrgreen: ) and they are very good pedals with a high build quality. Very respected here in Oz.

hope this helps.

 

[Bruno Petrucci]

Blaklynx

Thanks for your opinion. Running one pedal is already something that I wouldn't want. Two or more is out of question. But I'll check that MI.

TimeSignature

I agree with you 100%. I know I'll have to use an overdrive like you said. And yes, I should go with a Mark IV or V. But here in Portugal the Mesas are too expensive. And it's hard to sell my Roadster too. Believe me, it's for sale since July. So that trade comes to be difficult.
To be honest, if I could sell the Roadster and the other gear I have I would go with a Mark V or a Diezel VH4. However I honestly want to give Roadster a try. It's "just" the leads... although it's the most important thing for me in an amp.

 

[KH Guitar Freak]

Call me crazy, but I prefer the lead tones of Petrucci with a Road King II than the Mark series... :?

I use a Keeley modded TS9DX Flexi 4X2 in TS9 mode if I ever need more sustain and compression...

 

[Bruno Petrucci]

Call me crazy, but I prefer the lead tones of Petrucci with a Road King II than the Mark series... :?

I use a Keeley modded TS9DX Flexi 4X2 in TS9 mode if I ever need more sustain and compression...

KH Guitar Freak, the thing is that both amps have great lead tones. But for something more "shred" the Roadster is harder to deal with. I feel "stucked", the notes are so apart from each others... lack of compression.
I agree with you that the rectifiers have really nice tones too, except for faster passages.

I don't know that pedal. I'll check it out.

Thanks

 

[TimeSignature]

KH Guitar Freak, I agree!

IMO the Mark on Systematic Chaos sounded fizzy. Listen to the intro to Constant Motion.

I prefer the Train of Thought Rectifier sound.

Its amazing what a good studio producer / mixer can do!

 

[Silverwulf]

I think Jeff Loomis never had a problem with fast picked leads on a Recto. This song is all Recto...solo at 2:31:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMYwPhh05B8

He used a TS-9 on this album in front.

 

[Bruno Petrucci]

I think Jeff Loomis never had a problem with fast picked leads on a Recto. This song is all Recto...solo at 2:31:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMYwPhh05B8

He used a TS-9 on this album in front.

Ok... but what if it was only the Rectifier? Doesn't the TS-9 make a big difference? In terms of compression?

 

[TimeSignature]

If i remember correctly when I had my Roadster, the key to good tone was using LESS treble, presence and gain and MORE volume!!!!!!

And yes, a tubescreamer-ish pedal thrown in front.

 

[Bruno Petrucci]

If i remember correctly when I had my Roadster, the key to good tone was using LESS treble, presence and gain and MORE volume!!!!!!

And yes, a tubescreamer-ish pedal thrown in front.

Thanks guys, you're helping me a lot.
I have to go to bed now, since it's 00h15 here in Portugal.

But please continue the discussion around this. I want to hear more opinions from you all. I'll check it and comment in the morning.

Thanks

 

[emperor_black]

Ok... but what if it was only the Rectifier? Doesn't the TS-9 make a big difference? In terms of compression?

This board has a LOT of very knowledgeable members and maybe one of them will tell me I'm talking **** and ask me to shut up or maybe they'll give me a pass... :lol:

Modern high gain tube amps have several gain stages (also called cascading gain) in their preamp's. And tubes are being used in those preamps. Tubes impart a natural compression by their nature. The preamp's voicing along with the tubes natural compression is what makes an amp's tone.

Now, you're asking for the tone and fluidity of a MK IV's LEAD channel in a amp that's voiced differently. That simply cannot happen unless you replace the roadster's preamp with the mk iv's.

I still think you can get close to what you want with a compression pedal in front of the amp. Have you tried that already? Sorry if I missed it. You said you tried the compressor effect in the loop. That is not the same as the front of the amp.

Or you could try a compressor pedal with tubes in it. I have a tube compressor pedal and its the quietest most natural sounding compressor pedal I've tried. I've had about 4 different compressor pedals and sold all but this one. Its called ART Levelar compressor and is not made anymore. T Rex makes some tube compressor pedals IIRC.