Roadster combo Mic'ing ideas

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Stumblefly

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Hello,
I play in a hard rock band and our practice spot is ok size but we want to run our amp combo's into the PA to blend it into the mix because our amps seem very directional and when we turn up to what sounds like the right volume we kind of overpower the singer and we have a decent size PA system 2 x srx725, 2 x 718's - we are playing through Roadster 2x12 and Stiletto 2x12 and big block 750- My question is- Is it a better idea to mic our amps or is there a D.I. box to go out out directly into the PA that sounds good? I would like to keep on stage mic's to a minimum if possible to cut down on Bleed through and feedback especially when playing on cramped stages.

Any thoughts - please post
Thanks :D
 
IMHO even a really good direct like a Palmer unit will not sound as good as a tried and true Shure SM57 mic. As far as stage volume goes the Roadster sounds pretty good at reasonable volumes. I have the combo as well and have never had an issue keeping stage volume down and having a good tone using a 57.
 
8) SM57's still and always, was using them back in the 70's, and they are the one. Not direct! Using Roadsters, Randalls, Lonestars and Ampeg
Bleed will be a problem with the other mic's, but useful, think what your using for vocal/drums :idea:
 
For sure - I have a couple of sure 57's I can use - I will try out on friday - what about Mic placement? How far from speaker? and should it point directly at the front of the speaker, on axis - at center of speaker?

Any Eq'ing sugestions for the PA?

Thanks :D
 
Stumblefly said:
what about Mic placement?
Check out YouTube videos. They do help.

Here's a couple I like. (I'm in to metal guitar tones)

http://youtu.be/RyDnoHSFsnc

http://youtu.be/gQX71Ycrg28
 
Stumblefly said:
For sure - I have a couple of sure 57's I can use - I will try out on friday - what about Mic placement? How far from speaker? and should it point directly at the front of the speaker, on axis - at center of speaker?

Any Eq'ing sugestions for the PA?

Thanks :D
:idea:
Directly at front of speaker . . 90º to axis with approx 1/2" clearance from cloth, that's simply to avoid any fabric/cabinet vibration.
Place one at centre of speaker dome and one off centre at mid cone.
EQ centre one to give mild emphasis to highs and off centre to bring in a little more bottom, THEN listen and consider the tonal difference to the 2. You can use this variation, when you blend the 2 together, to adjust for variation in acoustical properties of venues. Things like hard walls/fabrics, empty venue, people in, all changing tonal range. Are you running a crossover network on your PA? I ask that because my wealth of knowledge of PA's came from 70's/80's era of separate Crown amps for high/mid/low and bass bins/mid horns/high horns with crossover networks!
As you know, highs have greater penetration and bottom always needs more oomph. Depends on sound you're into and whose the star, I can remember doing a gig with Johnny Winter in the early 70's and he used high&mid range horn in his guitar rig for that cut through sound and same with PA . . very little bottom, it hurt the ears.
Don't get the 57's much further away, you don't want bleed!
Enjoy friday :evil:
 
Sweet - i will be trying them tonight- awsome! and we do run a cross over net work - 2X rmx2450 bridge mono per sub 2x jbl srx718 and 2x qsc plx3002 bridge mono per tops 2x srx725- using the beringer speaker mangement dcx2496 (need to upgrade tpo dbx dr260- i will definitely play with the setting - keep the info flowing that is good info
Thanks,
Dustin 8)
 
Stumblefly said:
Sweet - i will be trying them tonight- awsome! and we do run a cross over net work - 2X rmx2450 bridge mono per sub 2x jbl srx718 and 2x qsc plx3002 bridge mono per tops 2x srx725- using the beringer speaker mangement dcx2496 (need to upgrade tpo dbx dr260- i will definitely play with the setting - keep the info flowing that is good info
Thanks,
Dustin 8)

Try with and without castors, also sat on piece of carpet or not, makes a difference to bottom. Also height of combo i.e. on stage floor or raised . . . raised you'll get more of it but increase chance of vocal mic bleed. Experiment, you've time to get it right and only minutes in front of a crowd to sound C'p
How many others in band and what are they using? Where do you tend to prefer to position on stage? What are vocal mic's? Do you drum mic?
Mic bleed is not the assumed evil . . a controled amount gives added fullness to your gig sound.
Listen to 'Get Yer Ya Ya's Out' live album by the Stones, LOUD, and bear in mind they were all using Ampeg SVT 300 watt rigs . . lots of bleed through and one hell of a good live album, certainly their best and maybe the best.
Sympathy for the :twisted:
 
LET THE PA SYSTEM DO THE WORK IT WAS DESIGNED FOR - GET SOME MICS BUT BE CAREFUL

The idea here is to lower your stage volume for a few reasons:

A) In a smaller rehearsal venue, getting too loud smears out the sound and after a few songs everything sound indistinguishable and muddy, you start reaching for more volume thinking that is the solution, but nothing needs to be turned up...EVERYTHING NEEDS TO BE TURNED DOWN. Remember you can't have EVERYTHING LOUDER THAN EVERYTHING ELSE! :lol:

B) You also want lower stage volumes so there is minimal bleed through into the vocal mics and then into the wedges. Your vocalist will thank you by singing better because he can finally hear himself...turn him up without the feedback.

So here is my suggestion.

The Bass - I'd recommend using the DI out of the back and going direct into the board. The bass player could turn his rig down a bit for a stage volume and giving him a channel at the board enables him to come out of the subs. He will sound bigger and sit with the kick drum if mic'ed correctly.

The Guitars - Gibraltar Drum hardware makes some awesome products called sound shields. They are plexiglass panels that you can place in front of your amps and the drums too if you want. They eliminate bleed through into your guitar cab mic, and they eliminate the sound coming out of your cab into another mic..like the lead vocal mic. These things are lifesavers on a stage...isolation is where it's at if you want control. AND...you can still run the amps at a nice volume to keep the power tubes happy!
http://www.gibraltarhardware.com/?fa=series&sid=696&cid=35

The Mics - I know the 57 and Beta 57 are the "standard" for guitar cabs for many years. However, I have to be the only idiot who never liked the sound of a 57 on a cab. For my taste, the highs always ripped my face off, or if not too bright, it would be too muddy and not tight and defined. I know a good deal about mic placement from our studio, so I've tried many things...still was never happy. I've had better luck with a 421 or a 414, but a few years ago I found the silver bullet....the Royer 121 ribbon mic. This freakin' think is a God-send. The 121 sounds organic but brutal if you want it too. It also sounds like your cab, not too colored. For crunch guitars it totally kills! After I got a matched pair for the studio and stage, I never looked back...not interested in anything else. I get an amazing sound with minimal passes at mic placment...in 10 mins I have my sound every time. Also the FOH Guys will LOVE YOU...here are some actual FOH guy quotes from shows in regards to gigging with the Royer 121 : "Finally..someone that knows about audio and cares about his guitar sound." "Oh thank God, you guys got 121's..this is going to be an easy night for me". "Holy Sh!t...you guys got 2 121's no freaking way...NICE" "

Mic Placement - whatever mic you get, and assuming you are after a fat crunch sound that will not rip your face off with the highs or presence try the following...close mic at about 2-3 inches away from the grill cloth. Do not point the mic directly at the cone go for the edge of the speaker, unless you want it brighter. Also, angle the front of the mic a couple of inches off to the side of the grill, not directly into it---off-axis. Do this to taste.

When you get all this done and all the guitars and bass are in the board you can then pan the guitars differently to give them better separation. You will hear each guitar better and you will be in stereo too!

Remember, let the board and the PA cabs do the job they were designed for. If you get the right gear, you will sound amazing, balanced, minimal feedback, AND people will get to hear the vocals and the BOOGIES!!!!

Hope this helps and best of luck!
 
I know that ribbon mics can handle high SPL but are they too delicate for the thrashing that inevitable happens during constant gigging?
 
LithiumZero said:
I know that ribbon mics can handle high SPL but are they too delicate for the thrashing that inevitable happens during constant gigging?

The Royer can handle about 135db @ 20Hz. Although it sounds "cool" to play at that volume, trust me, you don't want to be that loud on a stage unless it is massive. In terms of the stability of Ribbon mics...yeah they are sensitive. The 121's come in a velvet pouch that sits nicely inside a velvet lined wooden box. We take extra special care of them so they don't get thrashed, but you are correct...anything can happen live.

The problem is, the 121's sound that **** good that we are willing to take the chance. I think that's a good problem to have, right? :)
 
That's why I like the Beta 57. It can handle being abused and still work flawlessly. Mine has been bumped, dropped, kicked, you name it. :D
 
Man -That is the info I was looking for -awesome! now I just have to find a deal on a couple of Royer 121's - also the Gibraltar sound shield should make the perfect stage sound (So it wouldn't compete with our stage monitors). You are so right about the volume - each instrument sounds good on its own - but when we play the vocals drop out and nothing seems defined - our drummer needs to not pound so hard as well - the high frequencies of the snare drum seem to compete as well - we did get some studio foam last week we need to put it up this weekend-also we need some for the ceiling as well - I will post pics and dimensions of our rehearsal space - I just want everything to mix well and blend together and not have the different sounds fight each other- do you think any noise cancellation or things being out of phase could be a problem? :?:
 
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