Roadster clean channels... very little headroom?

[NeveSSL]

Thanks, Bandit. I've read through the manual, but haven't spent enough time with it. I'm going to do that tonight and see if anything changes. There's this weird almost like a light static distortion I hear on the attack that is driving me bonkers... could be the EH 12AX7 I put in V1 or something else that is causing it, though. Not entirely sure. Need to do some tweaking and experimenting. Those freaking tubes are so, so hard to replace without taking the chassis out, though. Its really annoying the way they're sunk down into the chassis. :evil:

Brandon

 

[bandit2013]

I found the Roadster was easy when compared to the Mark Series amps. No room.....

All of the 12AX7 preamp tubes point in the same direction. The gap where the missing pin is faces towards the front of the amp. Power tubes I believe the key way in the socket is to the right. It has been a while since I changed tubes in the Roadster.

The static issue as described could be a preamp tube. Confirm that there are stock tubes in V3 and V5 (mesa branded 12AX7 JJECC83s tubes). Those will hold up to the two cathode follower circuits used by those positions. The rest is fair game. Stock tube in V1 will make the amp a bit dark especially with CH4 on modern. You can also move the EH tube to V2 and move the tube in that position to V1. You should not get any static noise from the attack. What type of guitar are you using? If it is a strat style or one with a large plastic pickguard those can store static energy. I generally use a nano-wax on my plastic pickguard as that helps reduce static much better than the fabric softener sheet.

If active pickups, you may need to confirm you are not sending DC into the output as that will make things noisy (I have 5 guitars with active tone controls and if the jack does not make the ground properly the battery connection internal to the guitar will have issues and result in noise).

I forgot if you mentioned if the amp was new or used. If it was used you may need to re-tube the preamp section if you have not done so already if you are having issues with the tubes that were in it when you got it. If it was new, your warranty should cover your tubes for a short while.

 

[screamingdaisy]

There's this weird almost like a light static distortion I hear on the attack that is driving me bonkers...

When playing heavy rhythm I tend to roll the tone pot off on my guitar to 8 or 9 to take some sizzle off the attack. Makes the notes sound fatter and clearer.

I also tend to run the presence around 9:00-10:00.


FWIW... these have generally been my settings for the last 15 years.

Gain - 11:00 (rock) or 1:00 (more rock)
Treble - 12:30
Mids - 11:00
Bass - 12:00 (will drop it to 9:00-10:00 with muddy pickups)
Presence - 10:00
Master - ideally, 10:30 or above... but your situation will define the answer.

(the above is with the effects loop bypassed. With the effects loop engaged I tend to run the channel master between 9:00 and 10:00 on the loudest channel and turn up the master output as loud as I can get away with.).

 

[NeveSSL]

Thanks for the help, guys! I am using an Ibanez PRS-ish guitar from around 2004. I can't remember the model. It's a solid body with routed, passive pickups.

I ended up selling the Roadster yesterday. The Marshall JVM just sounds so much better to my ears and is a ton easier to dial in. I hate spending a ton of time tweaking and tweaking and tweaking. The Marshall was plug it in, set a few things, play, set a few more things, bingo. Plus I can mod it and customize it a bit more.

Brandon

 

[Given To Fly]

Those freaking tubes are so, so hard to replace without taking the chassis out, though. Its really annoying the way they're sunk down into the chassis. :evil:

The trick to changing tubes on the Roadster Combo is to turn the whole amp upside down. It makes everything much easier.

 

[NeveSSL]

I had thought about doing that to have gravity on my side... I probably should have.

Brandon

 

[bandit2013]

Since I have had mine for a while, I do not have to constantly adjust anything. Same goes for my other amps. I may sometimes change things, settings, and such but generally leave the tone controls as is.

Some amps you can get some really awesome tones with some minor changes.

Good luck with the JVM. Sorry the Roadster did not work out for you. Sometimes you win and sometimes you find it may not be a fit for you.

 

[NeveSSL]

Thanks, Bandit. If I'm honest, it was hard for me to let it go. I'd been coveting Dual Rectifiers since my teens... And it just wasn't the amp for me. Last night, though, with the Marshall, I just couldn't stop playing it! I knew without any doubt at that point I'd made the right decision, even if I didn't want to let go of the Mesa.

Brandon

 

[bandit2013]

Hey, it happens and nothing wrong with that. I may have been a Mesa fan ever since my first Mark III in 1989. At that time I want from a Marshall to the Mesa. (note that the Marshall was not a tube amp, it was a MOSFET 100). Was not very loud and the Bass and drummer were drowning me out. The table changed when I got the Mark III.

Also the Roadster is similar but different than the other Rectifier amps. I think it is darker in tone. I love mine for what it is. The JVM has midi right? Also a programmable footswitch pedal. I thought that was cool when I saw the demo. Perhaps my next amp may be something different.... will see...

 

[NeveSSL]

Yep, has MIDI built in, which is pretty nice (and means I can sell my Amp Gizmo ). I absolutely love the way it sounds and will be modding it a bit to see what other tones I can coax out of it.

Brandon

 

[bandit2013]

I guess it has been too long since I played through the Roadster. I ran it though the Horizontal 212 cab. It does have a fizzy tone to it after all. I generally run the amp though an EV loaded OS Recto 412. Either that or the Stock OS Recto 412 cab I use with the RA100 head. The 212 cab is deep sounding and probably too deep for the Roadster. Now I hear the fizz. I had forgotten what tubes I had in the amp so after it cooled down I pulled them. Seems I liked the Mullard CV4004 in V1 and V2 for some reason. When I rolled it the last time I was running the EV cab and that had the best character I would assume. I popped in the stock tubes which was not as fizzy but dark once again. This would work better with the V30 loaded 412 but perhaps would be muddy with the EV loaded cab. Time to move the EV loaded cab into the other room and roll in some alternate tubes. I downloaded the schematic from the tube store as they have the road king II which is nearly the same thing excluding the progressive linkage and dual effects loop. I always wondered where the tone stack was for CH1/CH2 relative to the CH3/CH4 as the signal splits after the 2nd gain stage. Now I have a better understanding why the 5751 sounded really good in V2 for the two lead channels.

If I were to rate the amp regarding what I have now, the roadster is dropping down a few rungs on the ladder and the TC-50 is climbing up (rapidly I might add). Before I popped in the stock tubes in V1 and V2, the Mullard CV4004 had a characteristic that was interesting, easier to pull off pinch harmonics, still with difficulty but achievable. for some reason I think the cathode follower of V3 may be drowning out the sensitivity before it dumps into the tone stack. I am willing to bet (have not tried it yet) that the pinch harmonics would be easier with CH1 or CH2 using tweed or brit voices. I use the amp mainly on CH4 Modern.
The only pet peeve I have with the amp in general is the reduction in volume when changing from Modern to vintage, or vintage to raw. It is almost like a 3dB reduction or more.

 

[NeveSSL]

I kind of hate to say it, but I'm glad I'm not the only one who hears it.

I'm wanting to try out some other Mesa models. I would have sprung for a Mark V if they weren't so much more expensive than the Roadster. Maybe next time.

Brandon

 

[bandit2013]

Fixed the fizz at lunch time. To be honest it was terrible. The Mullards in V1 and V2 were in part to blame. Returned to all stock too dark with the 212 cabinet. On a whim, threw in two Svetlana 12AX7 and returned the Sovteck LPS in V6. Holly spit batman, that amp don't fizzlie it sizzles. The Svetlana preamp tubes sounded awesome. Never tried them in this amp. I bought a few just for S&G a while back but only used one or two in the RA100's. They have a bit lower gain than the Mesa, Tung Sol or the Mullards. Not it sounds like I remember it sounding, well at least thought the recto Horizontal 212 cab.

First time I ever took notice to fizz like you mentioned. At least I do not hear it now, and if it is there it is not as abundant at the moment. I was also not digging the clean channels all that much before the tube swap. I did put those Mullards to hard use. Most of the EH and Tungs Sols I have are about done in as well. they just never stay in any amp long enough to die a useful tube death, and as long as they do it with grace I am good with that.

The Mark V is expensive. As are the rest. TC-50 is way too much fun to stop playing though it. (tubes need some burn in to sound at their best, so about 20 hours or perhaps less they sing).

 

[NeveSSL]

Nice! Glad you were able to get rid of it.

Brandon

 

[bandit2013]

That was not very difficult to rid the fuzz. However I believe it may be a characteristic trait on the Rectos. Generally at lower volume level things may not sound as they should when hitting the sweet spot, not too many people are willing to play that loud anyway.

How does the JVM sound at low volume settings? That amp in particular has peaked my interests since it came out. Can you run 6L6 tubes in it or is it strictly a EL34 amp? Have fun biasing the amp when you change tubes. It is not as bad as you think but can lead to high voltage potential and electrocution if you are not familiar in doing such (amp chassis needs to be removed to do it). PRS Archon is the other amp I had considered. I think that has adjustment and bias points on the back panel but has been a while since I looked at it in any detail.

 

[NeveSSL]

I could have and maybe should have spent a lot more time with my Roadster to try to get it where I wanted, but it felt rather pointless when there was another amp that did almost exactly what I needed for around the same price. Boy, that's a bad analogy for marriage. Haha!

It actually sounds really good at low volume settings. It is strictly an EL34 amp, but there's always KT77s. Haha! I have to say, the clean channel on the JVM is one of the best I've heard. I know that sounds ridiculous, but it is really, really good. I think I read its a copy of a 59 Bassman circuit. Biasing isn't an issue... I bought a True RMS voltmeter years ago for the purpose. I don't like taking the chassis out, though, you're right, but its also a hell of a lot easier than my Roadster at least.

I would highly recommend you try to find a JVM to try out. I lucked out last week when one of the two Guitar Centers around me had taken one in on Saturday and I called them on Monday looking for one. That's the one I ended up taking home. I'm going to mod it, though. Going to probably do a blackface clean channel (maybe... pretty happy with it as is... may not change it), Plexi mod to the crunch channel, and of course a Mesa mod to OD2. I think I'm going to leave OD1 alone for now. That should make this amp exactly what I've wanted. It's an incredibly versatile amp, especially with the mods.

Brandon

 

[bandit2013]

If you get the tone you are after that is all that matters. Roadster may not be for everyone as it can be very dark in its character with stock tubes. Not very intuitive on the controls either as one needs to spend a bit of time to understand where to set it and what is the overall influence. I generally find what I like by ear and just leave it there. It is not all that hard to get the tone you need once you adapt to its tonal range. If I needed more versatility or difference voices I would either choose the TC-50 or the Mark V. However the JP-2C has that tone I have been searching for most of my 30 years....

 

[NeveSSL]

Definitely. I probably should have spent more time with the Roadster, but I've made my peace with it... mostly. I'm happy with the Marshall, but I'm already looking at another amp... maybe even a Royal Atlantic. My next amp will likely be in addition to the Marshall, though, instead of replacing it.

Glad to hear the JP-2C worked out for you! It seems like a killer amp.

Brandon

 

[bandit2013]

I never played through a combo version and that may even change things a bit. It is what it is. You found something that works for you and that is all that matters in the end.

 

[puppychumful]

Hi there,

I also have a Roadster 212 and I also need a bit of advice kind sirs and I hope I am not derailing the original poster's subject as it is basically the same concern!

1. I find the amp has a boxy midrange, a thumpy bass, and an overly directional, focused projection, at least when compared to my Fender Hot Rod Deluxe. I would have expected a monster 212 combo to be much more balanced in its frequency response, and to be much more three dimensional in its projection. I'm thinking if I removed the back panel, that might help?

2. The built-in fan is distracting a lower volumes, and AFAICT is not installed on the head version of this amp, do you think it’s safe to disconnect the fan, and if not has anyone replaced the fan with an exact replacement spec that's a lot quieter, and if so which brand / model of fan did you use?

3. I've never compared my Roadster 212 to another Roadster 212, but even on the cleanest settings it has less headroom before distortion than my Fender Hot Rod Deluxe. I would have thought, with the Roadster's massive compliment of tubes, and amazing four channel flexibility, it would easily outgun my Fender Hot Rod Deluxe for clean Fender-type headroom, but that does not seem to be the case. I have not biased the amp and I bought it used, but there is very little noise, hiss, hum or any other ugly sonic artefacts suggestive of an amp not operating the way it was designed. It's only the fact that the headroom before distortion is not as robust as I would have expected. Shouldn't the Roadster 212 be able to do the Fender Twin type of thing easily, and at loud volumes?

I figure some of you might advise me to replace the V30 speakers and/or replace some or all of the tubes, or alter the gain structure with a lower gain pre-amp tube, or try a guitar with lower output pickups or single coils, etc (I have tons of guitars so that's not the issue) but I'm not inclined to do amp mods without knowing with certainty how the amp was intended to sound from the factory, because I think I'd rather just sell it, if the Roaster 212 was not intended to be able to cover the same sonic ground as a clean Fender Twin, or a least a clean Fender Hot Rod Deluxe.

a. Can the Roadster 212 be adjusted to sound and act like a clean high-headroom Fender Twin (or at least the equal of my clean Fender Hot Rod Deluxe) or is it always going to have relatively lower headroom? Since I have no other Roadster 212's to compare it to, I do not know the design characteristics of this amp well enough to assess if my amp is out-of-spec or if it's operator error, or something else,

b. Will re-biasing the amp help (or it is self-biasing I can't recall) and/or can I bias it cold to increase headroom?

c. As far as the general operation of my Roadster 212, there is no question that it can get insanely loud, and there is no question that it can produce a number of classic and modern distorted sounds, and it is not noisy or hissy, nor does it hum etc, and all the footswitch functionality is great, and the reverb is great, and it will play clean at lower volumes, I just would have expected that it could get that high-headroom, clean, crisp, spanky-snap, at higher volumes, and at the least match my Fender Hot Rod Deluxe if not equal a clean Fender Twin.

d. AFAICT my Roadster 212 operates just the way it was designed to, except (I assume but could be wrong) for that clean headroom concern.

Some searches reveals:

Mesa Boogie's own promo states of the Roadster "Throughout two lower gain Channels, 1 and 2, you’ll discover every classic clean sound..." https://mesaboogie.com/amplifiers/electric/rectifier-series/roadster/index.html