Retubing my Mark V combo?

[kingdomheights777]

I am leaning towards retubing my Mark V combo, I am sticking with the Mesa tubes, but When you guys talk about "matched sets" what exactly does that mean. I have always just ordered 4 6L6 power tubes and 7 12ax7 preamp tubes with past amps. With boogie they only sell them in packs of duets, so would I order just 2 sets of Duets (are they already matched) and 7 12aX7's? and what about the 5U4G recto tube should i swap that out as well? Or what should I go with, I would like to stick with the boogie tubes just due to the fact that my sales rep that I bought the amp from can sell me Duets for $29 and the preamp tubes for $10.

 

[dodger916]

Power Tubes:
Matched sets refers to ensuring you use matched pairs of powers tubes in companion sockets. For instance, a Mark IV has two pair of companion sockets: inside and outside. The inside sockets run in Class A/B while the outside sockets run in Class A. When run together, we get Simul-class, or two classes running simultaneously. The tubes within each pair of sockets must be "matched" as designated by Mesa color code or Groove Tubes numbering code. More experienced gear heads will run tubes with the same (or **** close) plate current draw.

In a Mark IV, this configuration also allows running 6L6s in the inside sockets (Class A/B) while running EL34s in the outside pair (Class A), thus adding another nuance to the tone. Using matched pairs also allows running tubes of different current draw in companion sockets. For instance, you could run tubes with early breakup in the Class A sockets while running later breakup tubes in the inner sockets, or vice-versa. (Mesa's color and Groove Tubes number code will designate that).

I'm assuming the Mark V has a similar configuration, thus requiring a matched duet in each pair of companion sockets. Alternatively, you could go with a matched quad for all four sockets.


Preamp tubes
I'm not sure why you'd want to replace all preamp tubes with Mesa's. Most people will experiment with other tube brands or even vintage tubes to really add their own unique character to their amp. But now you're entering a whole new world of tone addiction.

Rectifier tubes
Same deal. Some people are not happy with the reliability of Mesa rectifiers, so they opt for other brands or class of tube, or even vintage tubes.

 

[kingdomheights777]

thanks for the reply

this has caught my eye, good idea or not?

http://thetubestore.com/sba-mesa-markv-2.html

 

[dodger916]

thanks for the reply

this has caught my eye, good idea or not?

http://thetubestore.com/sba-mesa-markv-2.html

It's not a bad deal. FYI, Doug's Tubes sells Winged C's for $8 less per pair: http://www.dougstubes.com/58816l6.html
I use them in my Mark IV with good results.

Power tubes will affect the tone, but not nearly as much as preamp tubes. It's doubtful your preamp tubes are shot regardless how many hours you've played your new amp. Bear in mind, preamp tubes are a whole can of worms unto itself.

My confusion: Why are you looking to replace tubes? If your power tubes are shot, then Mesa is the safe bet, and one that will preserve your warranty. (AFAIK, even using Groove Tubes will void the warranty). If you are looking to alter the sound of the amp, I'd recommend search the Board's tube forum. There are countless dissertations on tube sounds and performance. If you haven't researched tubes yet, you will be amazed at the amount of knowledge and experience on this board. Again, preamp tubes make the biggest difference. Some of these guys are outright connoisseurs, you'll be amazed. Some may be a bit over-the-top, but very informative!

If you want to get the most from your tubes, I'd recommend being patient and doing some research on the board, and then buy a few tubes and join the Fraternity of Tube Rollers! Just changing V1 (which has the largest single influence over tone) with the "right tube" can make an amazing difference to the amp, either good or bad.

But if just want new tubes, the deal you reference isn't bad. Given what I've heard on this board, I would definitely get at least one spare rectifier. It's also prudent to carry at least one spare 12ax7 and one set (duet) of power tubes.

 

[LPJunky]

Power Tubes:
....
For instance, you could run tubes with early breakup in the Class A sockets while running later breakup tubes in the inner sockets, or vice-versa. (Mesa's color and Groove Tubes number code will designate that).
....
.

interesting! How many colors is there in the Mesa color scheme? What is the ranking of those colors?

 

[dodger916]

Power Tubes:
....
For instance, you could run tubes with early breakup in the Class A sockets while running later breakup tubes in the inner sockets, or vice-versa. (Mesa's color and Groove Tubes number code will designate that).
....
.

interesting! How many colors is there in the Mesa color scheme? What is the ranking of those colors?

From the Groove Tubes website: http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/Rating.html,

Mesa scale Groove Tubes scale
Red 4
Yellow 4
Green 5
Gray 5
Blue 6
White 6

Lower numbers will start to distort at lower volume settings on your amp, and have more dynamic touch and feel. These are the GT 1-3 range, and the Fender "blue" painted tubes. Many Jazz or Blues players like this range, and they work well for recording where levels are going to be lower, or in smaller venues.

Medium numbers are the most versatile, will drop into most amps and be very close to most factories bias settings, and are the best general choice for most players wanting a versatile well rounded amp. These are the GT 4-7 range, and the Fender "white" painted tubes. The range of 4,5,6 are able to be used in Mesa Boogie fixed bias amps.

High number will have to be driven at higher volume levels to begin to reach output stage distortion. These are liked by some Jazz players that want a very clean sound. They are also preferred by some heavy metal folks, who want very clean high headroom. These folks like to get most of their distortion from front end effects, pedals, or by running their preamp levels very high. These tubes have the least dynamic touch and will give the most clean headroom. These are the GT 8-10 range, and the Fender "red" painted tubes.

 

[scott from _actual time_]

From the Groove Tubes website: http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/Rating.html,

Mesa scale Groove Tubes scale
Red 4
Yellow 4
Green 5
Gray 5
Blue 6
White 6

Lower numbers will start to distort at lower volume settings on your amp, ...
High numbers will have to be driven at higher volume levels to begin to reach output stage distortion.

except that's the opposite progression from what a Mesa tech told me:

RED
"Headroom" available: Very High
Clipping: Low

YELLOW
"Headroom" available: High
Clipping: Low

GREEN
"Headroom" available: Medium High
Clipping: Medium

GREY
"Headroom" available: Medium High
Clipping: Medium

BLUE
"Headroom" available: Medium Low
Clipping: Medium High

Best Regards,

Marcus Daniel | Customer Service
Mesa/Boogie | MESA ENGINEERING

so i don't know which one is right.

 

[Jim Ed Love]

thanks for the reply

this has caught my eye, good idea or not?

http://thetubestore.com/sba-mesa-markv-2.html

The tubestore does a good job of testing their tubes. I have had good luck with their tubes.

Also, check out http://pages.prodigy.net/jimmcshane/tubes.htm. Great guy that knows his tubes, plus will test and match.

 

[dodger916]

From the Groove Tubes website: http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/Rating.html,

Mesa scale Groove Tubes scale
Red 4
Yellow 4
Green 5
Gray 5
Blue 6
White 6

Lower numbers will start to distort at lower volume settings on your amp, ...
High numbers will have to be driven at higher volume levels to begin to reach output stage distortion.

except that's the opposite progression from what a Mesa tech told me:

RED
"Headroom" available: Very High
Clipping: Low

YELLOW
"Headroom" available: High
Clipping: Low

GREEN
"Headroom" available: Medium High
Clipping: Medium

GREY
"Headroom" available: Medium High
Clipping: Medium

BLUE
"Headroom" available: Medium Low
Clipping: Medium High

Best Regards,

Marcus Daniel | Customer Service
Mesa/Boogie | MESA ENGINEERING

so i don't know which one is right.

Finally, a techincal controversy! (seems like it's been a while) OK tube gurus, chime in.

 

[LPJunky]

Here is a other thread discussing it! That supports the early breakup with red and lots of headroom with the white...

http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?t=3718

 

[dodger916]

Here is a other thread discussing it! That supports the early breakup with red and lots of headroom with the white...

http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?t=3718

I've read that in numerous other threads as well.

 

[Jim Ed Love]

From the Groove Tubes website: http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/Rating.html,

Mesa scale Groove Tubes scale
Red 4
Yellow 4
Green 5
Gray 5
Blue 6
White 6

Lower numbers will start to distort at lower volume settings on your amp, ...
High numbers will have to be driven at higher volume levels to begin to reach output stage distortion.

except that's the opposite progression from what a Mesa tech told me:

RED
"Headroom" available: Very High
Clipping: Low

YELLOW
"Headroom" available: High
Clipping: Low

GREEN
"Headroom" available: Medium High
Clipping: Medium

GREY
"Headroom" available: Medium High
Clipping: Medium

BLUE
"Headroom" available: Medium Low
Clipping: Medium High

Best Regards,

Marcus Daniel | Customer Service
Mesa/Boogie | MESA ENGINEERING

so i don't know which one is right.

Finally, a techincal controversy! (seems like it's been a while) OK tube gurus, chime in.

This looks like a load of BS.

 

[dodger916]

What "this" are you referring to?

 

[scott from _actual time_]

except that's the opposite progression from what a Mesa tech told me:

so i don't know which one is right.

Finally, a techincal controversy! (seems like it's been a while) OK tube gurus, chime in.

This looks like a load of BS.

huh? wtf?

what the Groove Tubes website says is exactly opposite what a Mesa tech emailed me. i pasted what he said word-for-word from his email.

i don't give two sh!ts for controversy or what you erroneously think is BS. i just want to know which Mesa color code of tubes will break up earlier, and i've found two contradictory answers. which one is right?

 

[JOEY B.]

interesting! How many colors is there in the Mesa color scheme? What is the ranking of those colors?
From the Groove Tubes website: http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/Rating.html,

Mesa scale Groove Tubes scale
Red 4
Yellow 4
Green 5
Gray 5
Blue 6
White 6

This applies when the tubes are installed into a FIXED bias amp such as a Boogie. This means that the Groove Tubes will draw close to the same current at idle as the corresponding color codes of MESA tubes. The red color code idles cooler and is further from clip (breakup) , and the white color code idles hotter and is closer to clip (breakup). Reds = headroom , White = quicker distortion. 8) This is what Marcus was saying.


The early and late breakup that Groove Tubes is talking about is the tubes installed into an ADJUSTABLE bias amp with the tubes biased to the same current draw. That is, if you took a #5 tube and a #10 tube and biased them do both draw 70% mpd, that the #5 would distort sooner and the #10 would have more headroom.

 

[scott from _actual time_]

This applies when the tubes are installed into a FIXED bias amp...

by "this," you mean the Mesa tech's list, right?

...when the tubes are installed into a FIXED bias amp such as a Boogie. This means that the tubes will draw close to the same current at idle. The red color code idles cooler and is further from clip (breakup) , and the white color code idles hotter and is closer to clip (beakup). Reds = headroom , White = quicker distortion.

The early and late breakup that Groove Tubes is talking about is the tubes installed into an ADJUSTABLE bias amp with the tubes biases to the same current draw. That is, if you took a #5 tube and a #10 tube and biased them to both draw 70% mpd, that the #5 would distort sooner and the #10 would have more headroom.

thanks so much! that all makes sense. so both GT and Mesa are correct; it just depends on what type of amp the tubes are in.

thanks again.

 

[Jim Ed Love]

I'm not saying you are BS'ing at all. What is all this stuff about colors and different tubes.

I thought that different brands of tubes have different tonal characteristics and if you want different tone try a different brand. A tube that tests well will sound the way it is supposed to. This looks like a ploy to sell off tubes that are failing tests.

 

[scott from _actual time_]

I'm not saying you are BS'ing at all.

good--glad to hear it.

I thought that different brands of tubes have different tonal characteristics and if you want different tone try a different brand. A tube that tests well will sound the way it is supposed to. This looks like a ploy to sell off tubes that are failing tests.

i disagree--it makes sense to me. i read somewhere while looking for answers on the color progression (i forget if it was on Mesa's site or GT's site) that the color codes aren't tubes that failed testing, but rather tubes that test more toward one end or other of the range or window of readings for accepted tubes.

if you think about it from an industrial point of view, they must have a range that tubes can test within to be accepted, not a single number--because way few tubes would ever test at exactly that number and they would end up failing most all the tubes. so they set a range, for Mesa corresponding to what will work in the fixed-bias amp. which means that some tubes might be on the high end of that range and some might be on the low end. the tonal variation between those may be slight (the Mesa tech said as much to me). but i do think it's worthwhile to have those options within the range in case people want to try to tweak their tone.

could they be setting that range so wide that they are selling tubes that might shouldn't be passing the test? they sure could if they wanted to. maybe the way to avoid any chance of that is to always get tube colors that are in the middle of the range.

 

[JOEY B.]

This applies when the tubes are installed into a FIXED bias amp...

by "this," you mean the Mesa tech's list, right?

YES. I edited my previous post to clarify it a little better.

 

[scott7d]

I'm not sure if someone said it already, and I don't mean to treat you like you do not know what you are doing, but changing EVERY preamp tube EVERY time may be a tad overkill. Maybe you play a lot and run the amp hard, but my experience with preamp tubes is that they last a lot longer than power tubes.

But like someone mentioned, it is fun experimenting with different brands. I've had amps I didn't care for (particularly the cleans) and I switched the V1 tube and it made a world of difference.

Rock on!