Replacing my Express 6L6 Yellow tubes with Mesa 6L6 Red's...
- Thread starter GoranS
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Certain older Mark series amps may work better with certain colors, because of their older design.GoranS said:
But for modern amps like the Express, the colors do not designate anything about tone quality, but serve only to match tubes in pairs.
Okay...
The funny thing is that they are being advertised as "soft", the yellows as "soft-mid" and the green as "middle" and the "grey's" as aggressive.
Some not uncommon believes are the the red's have an earlier breakup due to lower idle bias current, and that they have a softer sound. And I interpret softer by less treble... The grey coded on the other end of the scale is having more headroom and possibly being more trebly.
There seem to be no real knowledge on any Internet forum, or it may be that they who have the knowledge don't bother and that they who do not really know and only guess posts.
Mesa does not supply any info on their website either, which really doesn't help clarifying the matter.
So I decided to check it out myself...
The funny thing is that they are being advertised as "soft", the yellows as "soft-mid" and the green as "middle" and the "grey's" as aggressive.
Some not uncommon believes are the the red's have an earlier breakup due to lower idle bias current, and that they have a softer sound. And I interpret softer by less treble... The grey coded on the other end of the scale is having more headroom and possibly being more trebly.
There seem to be no real knowledge on any Internet forum, or it may be that they who have the knowledge don't bother and that they who do not really know and only guess posts.
Mesa does not supply any info on their website either, which really doesn't help clarifying the matter.
So I decided to check it out myself...
GoranS said:Okay...
The funny thing is that they are being advertised as "soft", the yellows as "soft-mid" and the green as "middle" and the "grey's" as aggressive.
Some not uncommon believes are the the red's have an earlier breakup due to lower idle bias current, and that they have a softer sound. And I interpret softer by less treble... The grey coded on the other end of the scale is having more headroom and possibly being more trebly.
There seem to be no real knowledge on any Internet forum, or it may be that they who have the knowledge don't bother and that they who do not really know and only guess posts.
Mesa does not supply any info on their website either, which really doesn't help clarifying the matter.
So I decided to check it out myself...
Who is advertising them like this? I'm curious...
No, Mesa doesn't supply info on their site, because they don't rate their tubes by such criteria. These so-called "ratings" probably started as confusion with Groove Tubes rating system.
What you will find, is differences in tone between different STR models, or manufacturers of Mesa tubes. In other words, STR-430 REDS will sound different than STR-440 REDS. But STR-440 GREENS are going to be darn close to STR-440 REDS.
MrMarkIII said:
Thomann in Germany describes them so, and I've seen similar descriptions. Of course that doesn't mean that it's true, though.
Here's a link to Mesa tubes at Thomann
I was able to get a new set at a lower cost because my newly bought set of Mesa STR-440 Yellow was defect. They work but rattles before they are really hot... So I decided to try a set of red's.
Any difference bettween the tubes is only likely to be noticed when they are really pushed. So if you don't play at high volumes you may never notice.
I have a blue set and a yellow set of El84 tubes for my 5:25 so this could well be irrelevent, but the only real differences I notice is that the yellows break up earlier and possibly sound a bit mushier. Both have plenty of trebble.
I have a blue set and a yellow set of El84 tubes for my 5:25 so this could well be irrelevent, but the only real differences I notice is that the yellows break up earlier and possibly sound a bit mushier. Both have plenty of trebble.
Interesting... Then Thomann is wrong about their descriptions. Wouldn't be the first time. :lol:
Last week I played at an outdoor gig using only the clean channel and an OCD pedal in front for hair. Tone heaven IMO.
Had to crank up the master volume to about 9 o'clock (maybe 9:15) and it was really LOUD. Gain at 10.
The STR-440 red's might be better because I honestly don't know in what situation I would have to crank it further.
It's an Express 5:50 1x12, by the way.
I would like to find tubes that tune done the treble a bit. Playing mostly Strats the tone tends to be ice-picky.
I've found a good clean setting in: Treble - 9 o'clock, Mid - 4 o'clock, bass - 11:30. Gain at 10:30.
The Fulltone OCD is nearly always engaged and the tone control is at 11 o'clock to tame the treble a bit.
But still if I pick to hard (and I tend too) the treble hits hard. I might have to explore the tone controls a bit more, though.
Haven't yet tested the amp with my Gibson Nighthawk since i rarely play it anymore.
Last week I played at an outdoor gig using only the clean channel and an OCD pedal in front for hair. Tone heaven IMO.
Had to crank up the master volume to about 9 o'clock (maybe 9:15) and it was really LOUD. Gain at 10.
The STR-440 red's might be better because I honestly don't know in what situation I would have to crank it further.
It's an Express 5:50 1x12, by the way.
I would like to find tubes that tune done the treble a bit. Playing mostly Strats the tone tends to be ice-picky.
I've found a good clean setting in: Treble - 9 o'clock, Mid - 4 o'clock, bass - 11:30. Gain at 10:30.
The Fulltone OCD is nearly always engaged and the tone control is at 11 o'clock to tame the treble a bit.
But still if I pick to hard (and I tend too) the treble hits hard. I might have to explore the tone controls a bit more, though.
Haven't yet tested the amp with my Gibson Nighthawk since i rarely play it anymore.
The preamp tubes V2,V1 and V4 will have the most effect on your tone in that order. If you want less trebble trouble get some warmer sounding tubes starting with V2. I find the JJ short plate tubes good for bringing back the trebble. Personally I wanted more sparkle (5:25 not 5:50) so I have Tungsol RI in V2.
Also have a play with the mid control, there seems to be some overlap between the mid and trebble control in the upper mids which may be what you are not liking.
I also love the OCD with my amp, but do find that it brightens things up a lot and have to start with a somewhat darker EQ than I would use with out it. Do you have the OCD switch set to HP or LP ?
Also have a play with the mid control, there seems to be some overlap between the mid and trebble control in the upper mids which may be what you are not liking.
I also love the OCD with my amp, but do find that it brightens things up a lot and have to start with a somewhat darker EQ than I would use with out it. Do you have the OCD switch set to HP or LP ?
I use my OCD in HP mode most of the time, gain around 11 o'clock and tone 11 o'clock. Volume for unity gain or slightly more
It's the version 4 of the OCD I have on my pedal board, for light packing situations I have a version 3 to grab.
They are quite different sounding, but you can dial in the same sound on both.
Funny thing is that to get my fav tone the LP-HP switch is in different positions on the version 3 and version 4.
The version 4, if I recollect right, is slightly darker sounding. I set the sound by ear, so I never remember which.. :wink:
Regarding preamp tubes:
I'm currently waiting for a set of Mesa SPAX7 tubes, I've already placed two in V1 and V2 but wanted to replace all tubes with the same for convenience reasons.
I haven't had a real tube amp for more than 25 years, but when searching through my old stuff i found some old spare tubes that might be worth trying out:
- One Sylvania 12AX7A/ECC83/7025 long plate
- One Phillips Miniwatt ECC83
I also have newer modern ones:
- Two JJ ECC83S
- Two Sovtek 12AX7WXT
I also found some NOS E83CC's of different brands; Two Siemens and one Telefunken. The Telefunken is in a black and white box,
and may well be from the early '60s or even late '50s. I believe the E83CC is lower gain tubes? Are they of any use in my amp??
The E83CC's is unused. In the '80s I was working at the Swedish phone company assembling station equipment in the long distance network.
In 1980 I was assigned to disassemble old tube equipment at a large station making room for modern stuff and I took a couple of spare tubes
as souvenirs, and there was plenty more. The Siemens is probably from the '70s.
An funny story in retrospective is that when clearing out the station there was large boxes of tubes that was about to being thrown away.
There was 20 tubes each side, so the boxes contained 400 tubes, I rescued two boxes, 800 tubes and kept them in storage at home.
When investigating the tubes a couple of years later I found them to be HF tubes in an odd voltage configuration.
Since they where of no interest to me, and I couldn't find buyers I finally threw them away. This was way before the Internet
and the outcome had possibly been different today... Well... What'ya know... There might have been a small fortune in them...
I honestly do not remember what types of tubes they where...
It's the version 4 of the OCD I have on my pedal board, for light packing situations I have a version 3 to grab.
They are quite different sounding, but you can dial in the same sound on both.
Funny thing is that to get my fav tone the LP-HP switch is in different positions on the version 3 and version 4.
The version 4, if I recollect right, is slightly darker sounding. I set the sound by ear, so I never remember which.. :wink:
Regarding preamp tubes:
I'm currently waiting for a set of Mesa SPAX7 tubes, I've already placed two in V1 and V2 but wanted to replace all tubes with the same for convenience reasons.
I haven't had a real tube amp for more than 25 years, but when searching through my old stuff i found some old spare tubes that might be worth trying out:
- One Sylvania 12AX7A/ECC83/7025 long plate
- One Phillips Miniwatt ECC83
I also have newer modern ones:
- Two JJ ECC83S
- Two Sovtek 12AX7WXT
I also found some NOS E83CC's of different brands; Two Siemens and one Telefunken. The Telefunken is in a black and white box,
and may well be from the early '60s or even late '50s. I believe the E83CC is lower gain tubes? Are they of any use in my amp??
The E83CC's is unused. In the '80s I was working at the Swedish phone company assembling station equipment in the long distance network.
In 1980 I was assigned to disassemble old tube equipment at a large station making room for modern stuff and I took a couple of spare tubes
as souvenirs, and there was plenty more. The Siemens is probably from the '70s.
An funny story in retrospective is that when clearing out the station there was large boxes of tubes that was about to being thrown away.
There was 20 tubes each side, so the boxes contained 400 tubes, I rescued two boxes, 800 tubes and kept them in storage at home.
When investigating the tubes a couple of years later I found them to be HF tubes in an odd voltage configuration.
Since they where of no interest to me, and I couldn't find buyers I finally threw them away. This was way before the Internet
and the outcome had possibly been different today... Well... What'ya know... There might have been a small fortune in them...
I honestly do not remember what types of tubes they where...
Sounds like you have a some nice NOS tubes to try. I have a number of NOS tubes and have yet to be disapointed by one.
My favorite current production tube is the Tungsol 12ax7, but i'd still only rate them as 90% compared to a good NOS tube. If the remaining tube manufacturers keep moving ahead at the current rate we may even get close to what was around in the 60s in the next decade or so :lol:
As far as I can tell Mesa are using JJ preamp tubes currently, so there would be little point to you getting more JJs to try. My 5:25 is an older one from when they were using Sovteks so changing over the pre tubes in an older Expresses wilth Sovtecks will have a significant effect.
My favorite current production tube is the Tungsol 12ax7, but i'd still only rate them as 90% compared to a good NOS tube. If the remaining tube manufacturers keep moving ahead at the current rate we may even get close to what was around in the 60s in the next decade or so :lol:
As far as I can tell Mesa are using JJ preamp tubes currently, so there would be little point to you getting more JJs to try. My 5:25 is an older one from when they were using Sovteks so changing over the pre tubes in an older Expresses wilth Sovtecks will have a significant effect.
Now it's done!! The tubes arrived some days later than expected...
I now have Mesa STR-440 Red's in my Express 5:50.
At bedroom level (maybe slightly over, as I have a man-cave in my basement) I detect
no difference tone-wise compared to my old Yellows... At least they doesn't rattle anyway... :wink:
I now have Mesa STR-440 Red's in my Express 5:50.
At bedroom level (maybe slightly over, as I have a man-cave in my basement) I detect
no difference tone-wise compared to my old Yellows... At least they doesn't rattle anyway... :wink:
As expected
All this tibe tube talk has just made me realise that one thing the Express is missing compared to some of the other Mesa offerings is a bias switch for El34s. With the number of guys changing over to EL34 in MK5 amps and reporting great results i'd bet the express 5:50 would work great with El34 tubes too...
All this tibe tube talk has just made me realise that one thing the Express is missing compared to some of the other Mesa offerings is a bias switch for El34s. With the number of guys changing over to EL34 in MK5 amps and reporting great results i'd bet the express 5:50 would work great with El34 tubes too...
