RA100 Combo with Creamback G12H-75

[bandit2013]

The Creamback G12H-75 are a perfect match for the RA100 Combo. They are not however a good match to the Roadster as the tone took on a nasal character. I do not recall if I tried the mix of creamback and V30 with the roadster. I would not recommend the G12H-75 for use with a Rectifier amp. I am not really sure I like the V30 with the Roadster, it sounds good but I get tired of hearing it after a while. The new rectifier cab sounds great but the old one definitely does not win me over due to the changes I had to make to the baffle board support as it lost its particular resonance. I think I may stuff the EV back into the old cab just to have something different and put the old V30 in the small traditional size Egnator cab. Nothing special about the Egnator cabinet except it was relatively low cost and met for a budget I was willing to spend. I should have taken the custom cab route, perhaps I will someday.

Last note: if you have a RA100 combo, definitely consider the Celestion G12H-75 creamback, either mixed with a V30 or a complete pair as they perform quite well in the combo.

 

[bandit2013]

I can really seal a cabinet quite well, could not get it apart. Oh well.... V30 it will be for now. A quick tube roll in the Roadster cured my need to change speakers. Now that all of my amps are up, running and sounding great I will have a difficult time choosing what to play first. I need to focus on the RA100 Combo as the speakers are still green, not to mention the change I made to the Mark V combo. Life is good.... 8)

 

[thumbpick]

So glad that worked for you! Now I'm definitely converting my RA2x12. I was turned on to that combination by thumbpick. It seemed crazy at the time, but it's potent.

Heart = warmed.

 

[DWAKO]

I have been debating a few options to open up the tone of my Royal Atlantic. Speakers are the first option I want to look at. I currently run the Road King 2x12 cab (V30/C90), and I always mic the V30 to send to front of house. As many have stated with their experience, I get a ton of midrange and the highs seems more to choked a bit. I like a "glassier" top end shimmer without getting harsh. It pleases me to hear so many good things about the cream backs to tame the mids, but my only concern it a loss of too much mid range. I play more aggressive rock (i.e. Beartooth, Underoath etc.) in both drop C and A# tunings. I still want the speaker to be tight and have enough inherent mid range to be articulate. I usually run a Grid Slammer in front as a clean boost to keep things tight on vintage Lo and hi. I know fluff did some videos on the cream backs and they sounded great, but the V Type seems to be less of a departure from V30s but with some added top end and a slightly smoother midrange. Should I swap the v30 for the cream back, or would something like the V Type better suit my needs?

 

[bandit2013]

That is a difficult one to answer DWAKO since you have two different speakers already. What would I do in your situation? Not really sure.

I have experimented with many different speaker options. What I found with the RA100 Combo is that the pair of V30 got muddy as the speaker enclosure is not sealed. The V30 performs best in a sealed enclosure. The converse is true about the MC90. I generally love to push the bass to get that bottom end grind but yet want to have a good tone for palm muted notes. With the G12H75 Creamback I have better balance of the highs and lows with plenty of midrange that compliments the RA100 amp. After I installed a Jensen Blackbird in my Mark V combo, I was overwhelmed how it transformed that amp into a new favorite. I have tried the RA100 Combo with the Jensen speaker, not bad but still prefer the Creamback. However, I have thought about the Celestion Cream (90W alnico) paired with a Jensen Jet BlackBird (100W alnico). Having two different voice coil diameters will definitely change the tonal range. At this point I will not recommend it as this may be a disaster as I have not tried the Celestion Cream (I have read good and bad reviews but may depend on what amp is used and how the speaker is broken in). Not really sure what would work for you.

 

[DWAKO]

To me, the C90 adds a depth and fullness to the tone but as a result never really shines in the forefront along side a speaker like the V30. You probably know this but, the V30 is still completely a closed back cab, it's isolated from the open back side. And I agree, the C90 shines with an open back cabinet. In some situations, depending how loud I crank it, I'll just run the V30 side by itself and mic it up. It's not that the V30 is bad, it's been my go to speaker for years, but I feel for this amp in particular, there might be a better option. I haven't gone the tube route yet either, I might try swapping a few things there as well.

 

[bandit2013]

Well, for tubes, there is not much to gain or loose with preamp tube changes. The Hi/lo gain channel will become more sensitive and feed back will set in depending on what preamp tube you use in V1 and V2 (only tubes used for the Hi/lo channel gain chain). As for the clean channel the tone becomes deeper (V4 and V5). There may be some slight change in tone with V3 (NOS 12AT7 can definitely make a subtle change, I like the RFT12aT7) There is also the PI tube V7 that may get you more bite with a long plate 12ax7. The only real substantial change is in the power tubes. As it seems the final solution would be the speakers with the RA100 as the amp does not take a dramatic twist with preamp tube changes like a Mark V. Perhaps it has something to do with the tone stack, I would love to get my hands on the schematics for the RA100, the Roadster too.

What I like about the G12H-75 creamback is the relative similarity the 2x12 (open back) in comparison to the V30 loaded recto 412. I get a similar tone but not as bright as the 412. Before with two V30 in the combo, it generated mudd at higher volumes and moderate gain setting. Both RA100 head and combo sound the same thought the 412 cabinet so there are no differences between the two amps. It has been such a long time since I had a working MC90, for some reason they do not last very long for me.

 

[DWAKO]

I might just throw a Tung Sol in the V1 position to see if it changes anything. I've considered trying 6L6s in the power section, I know some who have tried it didn't find much benefit. However, I am looking to get more modern tone out of it, so it might be worth it. Re-watching the Haggerty's comparison video has me liking the open-ness found in the 6L6s, a little more recto-like. Anyways, not too hijack the thread, the Creambacks are very temping to try out. All of the demo videos I've heard has me strongly considering them.

 

[bandit2013]

If you want to listen to something comparable to the G12H75 Creamback, take a look at the Celestion Cream Alnico 90W. I ordered one yesterday to install into my Mark V. I will also use the RA100 though it to compare to the G12H75 creambacks. I made an extention speaker cable with a jack on the end so I can use the cabinet speaker with other amps. I do love the Jensen Jet Black Bird but it tends to bark with high gain and moderate bass. Similar to the V30 fart but this seems to be dependent on power tubes (most of what I have for the Mark V is basically worn out so need new tubes). I will try to record something before I swap speakers but will wait for new tubes to come in.

Note about the RA100 circuitry...

Hi/Lo channel uses the following tube sequence:
V1A = 1st gain stage Hi/Lo
V1B = hi 2nd gain stage
V2A = lo 2nd gain stage
V2B= hi/lo tone control drive

Clean channel uses the following tube sequence:
V4A = 1st gain stage clean
V4B = 2nd gain stage clean
V5A = 3rd gain stage clean
V5B = not used

Shared tubes:
V3A/B = effects loop (12AT7)
V6A/B = reverb
V7A/B = phase inverter driver

Just change in V1 to tung sol will not do much for the clean channel but will effect the Hi/Lo channel only. Odd that the manual does not indicate where in the tube chain the tone drive circuit is for the clean. I do not believe there is a cathode follower in the RA as I have used Russian tubes in V2 without issue.
In essence, there are two primary valves (V1 for the Hi/lo, V4 for the clean). You can actually pull V1 and V2 and still have the amp operate in clean channel with no ill effects, convers is true if you pull V4 and V5, (must have V1 and V2 installed) and operate the Hi/Lo channel without issue. I did like the tone of the Tung Sol in V1 or in V2, I have even used a Mullard reissue (Long plate) in V1. Actually I have tried several combinations of different tubes in both V1 and V2. I also believe there is a voltage shift between the Hi and Lo setting as I have heard a ping from the Mullard when used in the V1 circuit (Long plate tubes tend to do this with a sudden change in plate voltage when changing modes, not always but is more common with long plate preamp tube).

 

[DWAKO]

I'm honestly quite content with the clean channel, it's the gain channels, mainly Vintage Hi, I would prefer to have a more open top end glass/presence. Of course I come from using a Mark V and Stiletto which are naturally quite bright. But the tube layout is super helpful in knowing where it's best to invest my money. Thanks! If I do end up purchasing some speakers, I'll be sure to record the differences.

 

[YellowJacket]

I'm honestly quite content with the clean channel, it's the gain channels, mainly Vintage Hi, I would prefer to have a more open top end glass/presence. Of course I come from using a Mark V and Stiletto which are naturally quite bright. But the tube layout is super helpful in knowing where it's best to invest my money. Thanks! If I do end up purchasing some speakers, I'll be sure to record the differences.

Man, you've been playing amp swap quite a lot, huh? I'm pretty sure I've seen you with a Recto, a Mark V, an Electra Dyne, and the Royal Atlantic. I personally find holding onto my Recto and my Electra Dyne to be quite useful. Also, having a few guitars with different pickup configurations is helpful as well along with my boost pedal!

The Tung Sol sounds great in v1 for a recto but I don't know if an RA or Electra Dyne would benefit from that.

What sort of pickups are you using? Tried a boost?

On topic, I hear the G12H - 75 sounds killer when blended with a v30. It's honestly half tempting to try it out.

 

[DWAKO]

DWAKO wrote:
I'm honestly quite content with the clean channel, it's the gain channels, mainly Vintage Hi, I would prefer to have a more open top end glass/presence. Of course I come from using a Mark V and Stiletto which are naturally quite bright. But the tube layout is super helpful in knowing where it's best to invest my money. Thanks! If I do end up purchasing some speakers, I'll be sure to record the differences.


Man, you've been playing amp swap quite a lot, huh? I'm pretty sure I've seen you with a Recto, a Mark V, an Electra Dyne, and the Royal Atlantic. I personally find holding onto my Recto and my Electra Dyne to be quite useful. Also, having a few guitars with different pickup configurations is helpful as well along with my boost pedal!

The Tung Sol sounds great in v1 for a recto but I don't know if an RA or Electra Dyne would benefit from that.

What sort of pickups are you using? Tried a boost?

On topic, I hear the G12H - 75 sounds killer when blended with a v30. It's honestly half tempting to try it out.

Yeah a year or two back I did a bunch of swapping and trading of amps to more or less just try a bunch of different things and honestly learn what I like. All of those amps have qualities I love, the Mark V is still one of my favorites. But at the end of the day I have had the Royal for a while now and I'm sticking with it. It combines the best of everything that I like better than any amp I've tried so far. I've just never really dug into speaker/tube swapping. So it's something new to learn about, and I want to get the most out of the Royal. I've always liked Tung Sols, you really can't go wrong with them. I'm happy with my pickups, still using the BKs thanks to you Yellowjacket, the Rebel Yell bridge and Painkiller Bridge are my current favorites, I really dig the Nail Bombs as well, both Alnico and Ceramic. I've used the V30/G12H-75 combo in a 4x12 cab before, sounded great. But I'm mainly using 2x12s these days.

 

[bandit2013]

Just for fun, I did run the RA100 Combo though a single speaker (that was currently housed in my Mark V combo amp).

First up was the Jensen Jet Blackbird 100W Alnico speaker: Not bad on the clean channel, actually sounded amazing as I did not expect the difference to be that dramatic. However, the blackbird is too dark of a speaker for the heavy mid laden signal of the RA100 as the blackbird speaker is very close in frequency response as the EVM12L speaker. I have those too but did not like the RA100 with the EV speaker.

Second up was the Celestion Cream Alnico 90W speaker: I was hoping for a difference in tone from this one. However it too sounds sonically similar to the EV and the blackbird but with more emphasis on the lower to middle midrange. I actually prefer it with the Mark V combo as it remains tight on the bottom end with higher gain settings on CH2 and CH3. I will have to try it again once I break in the speaker. Still prefer the G12H75 Creamback as I like that gooey think tone and yet retain clarity I can dial in with the Hi gain setting. The G12H75 Creamback is that much different than the Celestion Cream Alnico as the G12H75 seems to have a bit of scooped tone but yet responds quite well with the RA100. The Celestion Cream does not hold back on its full range of tone so you will get tonal emphasis where you may not desire it. Speaker choice is subjective so perhaps the Celestion Cream Alnico 90W would be different in your application. I have not tried the Cream in a sealed enclosure so that may be quite different in character than it is in an open backed combo amp. I am assuming it would sound similar to the RA100 Combo as that is not completely closed off either but not as open as the Mark V.

 

[bandit2013]

After a few days experimenting with this and that... of course the G12H-75 Creambacks remained in my RA100 Combo, I wanted something different for the Roadster as well. Currently I have a mix of V30 and EVM12L which sounds ok, better than all V30 or EV's in an oversized Recto cabinet. I will be moving onto the next step and getting two more G12H-75 creambacks (8 ohm versions ) to pair up with two V30's and hope for the best. I did spend some time with the Roadster head sitting on top of the RA100 Combo, The Creambacks sound much better than I first thought with the Roadster than they did after changing a few preamp tubes in the DR. I prefer the way the Creamback G12H75 are made in comparison to the Celestion Cream Alnico 90W, other than the paint and magnet driver, it is the rubber gasket on the Creamback (looks more like cork) that is better for sealed cabinet vs the waxy stacked paper gasket used on the Alnico Cream. Getting a good seal with the stacked paper gasket is difficult (issue I had with the EV as well as the Jensen Blackbird). Also the rubber gasket acts as a damper on the baffle vs the hard paper. Also, you can remove the speaker if it has a rubber gasket and it remains intact on the speaker vs half of it peeling off and sticking to the baffle board as paper gaskets tend to split after they have been compressed. I can't wait to get them and hear the difference to the all stock recto cab I recently bought to match the RA100 head.

 

[bandit2013]

Bump.

This amp is still sweet. I had compared the combo with the Creambacks to the head driving the Horizontal 212 cab. Also tried the Horizontal with the combo speakers (at 4 ohms). WOW! that was ideal. Not sure why it took me this long to compare the Horizontal cab with the RA combo. Must have been preoccupied with something else. I actually prefer the Horizontal 212 over the OSR 412. Actually both are great with the RA.

Yeah, I still play though my RA's even after getting the JP-2C.

 

[danyeo1]

I've had mixed results with the Royal but one of the best rigs I ever played through was a Royal Atlantic combo but with a Mesa 2:90 poweramp taking the slave out and feeding a pair of 4x12's and using a Rocktron Intellifex for some stereo delay. So it was basically a W/D/W setup. It simply sounded incredible, of course dragging all that anywhere would be a huge PITA.

 

[bandit2013]

Hey Danyeo1, I listened to your soundcloud recordings. They were all great.

The RA100 is a class on its own. Not quite Marshall sounding and not quite Mesa sounding. The Creambacks in the combo give it more of a vintage vibe. I just could not bond with the V30 in an open back format. They were not bad but seemed to lack the same character when they are in a sealed 212 cabinet. I did have the V30 back in for a short while so I could compare the combo to the horizontal 212 cab. If the combo was a sealed back like the Roadster combo is, I would have left all as is. The same could be said about the Creambacks. Not bad in a sealed OS recto cab but seemed to lack what I was getting in the open back combo. I did not care for them in the OS 412 with the RA100 head as much as the V30 loaded 412.

One of these days I will get the TC-50 but for some reason I am holding off for what may come next in the series. Actually I am considering another drum set so it is either $2k for that or 1.7k for the TC-50. Hard call for me.

 

[bandit2013]

TC-50 has won me over. A few days ago I removed the Cream back G12H-75 and re-installed the original V30s. New tubes all Mesa and may end up selling the combo. The Head is a keeper so I really do not need two of them. May hold on to the combo for a bit longer though as it is fun to play. Also it is in the family room and the head is back on top of the 412 cab in the studio. I like the lighter TC-50 as that is much easier to move around along with the Vertical 212. May have to fix this issue as I have no place to put the JP-2C. Time for another Vertical 212 cab. Wonder what two would sound like? Awesome as I ran both the vert 212 and the Horizontal 212 at the same time. Way better than the 412 cab on its own. Smaller cabs have more bottom end. Event the RA combo sounded amazing using the horizontal cab as an extension. Perhaps there is hope in keeping it as having two RA100's does not bother me by any means. What is cool about it, one has a different set to tubes and is a beast through the 412 so it is like having two different amps anyway.

 

[diddlydan]

I was debating if I should go with the G12H-65 (based on the greenback speaker) since it had a brighter or pushed mids at the upper end. However, based on a recommendation from someone here (CORY) I chose the G12H-75 Creamback speakers. Thanks a lot Cory, I am very happy I came across your thread. I ordered the speakers that arrived today. Before I made any changes I decided to get some recordings of before an after. As a bench mark I rolled out the big brother to the combo for a side by side comparison. Both amps sound identical thought the 412 cabinet (head has Mesa EL34, Combo has Tung Sol EL34B due to low mechanical noise). What I really wanted was the same tonal character I get from the oversized Mesa cab. The stock V30 in the combo seem to be too rich in the midrange frequencies that drown out the top end. Typically I have to dial down the treble, but found I had to add more treble with the combo. The Celestion G12H-75 Creamback speakers deliver the Mesa 412 character perfectly. The Creamback speaker has a good balance of mids to treble and a bit more bass. I believe the Creamback offers a better tonal range for the RA100 Combo. Again, THANK YOU CORY for the recommendation. 8)


For starters, I match the settings on the combo that I normally use with the RA Head and made a few recordings. I used the Vintage Lo (blue) for the recording and a superstrat with single coil sized humbuckers. As for the mic's, I used a Shure Sm57 at the center of one of the speakers, an EV RE320 at the midpoint between edge and dust cap of the other speaker, and at 6 ft distance a RODE NT1-A and blended it all together during the mixdown. I do not think the recordings turned out as I had hope they would. Also had the reverb on which was not supposed to be active (so I left it on for the rest). Yes I do need to practice but figured to play something that sounds familiar even though I really do not know the songs all that well.

Benchmark: RA100 combo amp channeled though Mesa OS Recto Cab
https://soundcloud.com/user-353100000/ra412wav

Stock RA100 Combo
https://soundcloud.com/user-353100000/racombov30wav

Modified RA100 Combo with pair Creamback G12H-75
https://soundcloud.com/user-353100000/racreambackswav

Hi bandit,the links to soundcloud dont seem to work anymore.Im curious how thRA sounds with the creamback.any chance of another quick recording?Cheers

 

[bandit2013]

I can add those back to the Soundcloud if I still have them. I probably will not make another recording with the G12H75 creambacks as all of them are back in the boxes they came in. I favored the EV in the 412 format with the Roadster and the JP-2c along with the Mark V. That was not complementary with the RA in the 412 cab. The combo seemed to have a different character due to open back 212 setting, but it mattered what tubes you ran for best results. The Mullard EL34 were king with the Creamback. SED =C= were much better with the V30. EH or Mesa EL34 once they get some hours on them sounded better with the V30. Also the sensitivity of the Creamback is a bit lower and almost sounds like a 3 to 5 dB drop in volume level. Odd that the V30 sounded terrible in the combo when I got it (used) but it had some poor solder joints and questionable solder used to connect the wires. May have had different speakers in it before it was sold and then restored before selling to Guitar Center.

I will see if I can find the files by may have to delete something on sound cloud.