orderd a quad of G12H-75 Creambacks

[peterdenny]

Im surprised that combo fit so nicely on that slant. Mine is too wide for my comfort level so I went with the straight. If I end up getting a RK2 head Ill sell the combo and put my 2x12 cab there with the CB75. They are in that combo at the moment. BTW anyone know what is wrong below trying to nest a picture? Please let me know so I can correct. I put the link in between the two bracketed img /img commands.

https://myspace.com/seattle_peter/mixes/streammix-712834/photo/373176542

 

[bandit2013]

It should fit. It has the same footprint as the Mark V head considering the Mark IV was a wide body but that relates to a medium size in head dimensions.
The RoadKing in you picture would darf the Mark V or Mark IV combo. That amp is almost as wide as the 412. Is that a traditional sized cab or Oversized?

I was mulling over deciding what to do next. I was comparing the two cabs with two different amps side by side. The newer cab just sounds incredible but the old recto seems to have a much higher tone to it. No wonder why I could not stand V30 when I got my Mark V. Even the Roadster seems to abundant in the mids more than it should. I ran the JP-2C though each, something not right with the old speakers. 20 minutes tops and I do not want to hear them anymore. The new recto cab, I could play though that thing all day. I guess the CBG12H75 will go back where they were. It is either that or the EV but those seem to slow in response for what I like to use the Roadster for. I think some of the extra bracing I had to install to compensate for weak top baffle that may have altered the tone a bit. I have yet to get the old V30's to flub even with the 5Band EQ in the Roadster loop. I actually liked the Creambacks better. I doubt they are even broken in yet. I will try to take a picture of the mod to the old recto cab when I open it up. I did it out of desperation to stop an annoying vibration that was resonating with the G string.

For your entertainment, Here is another old picture.... Old Recto with the EV speakers installed, this one is unmodified as the issue of vibration was not present. The last time I had the EV speakers in the cab, they stayed for about two days, at which time I ordered the Creambacks. What spoiled the fun of it, is the new recto cab as that one just kicks ass. Creambacks did take away some of the upper mids enough to be noticed. I do not mind replacing a speaker or two in a combo, the 412 takes a bit more time. Lacking monkey arms most of the nuts are hard to reach. I have had plenty of practice so it should not take that much time. I am thinking about getting a vertical 2x12 to use with the JP-2C so I can use it without being so loud.

The EVM12L phase... not bad, awesome if you really want to push the limits of your hearing. Voice coil size is probably better for lower frequencies or general purpose PA duty as this is where they started in the first place. Flat frequency response, if your amp is running a hot bias you will definitely know it as these speaker will drive hard the higher frequencies as well as the lows. I miss the mids though. Don't be fooled by the size of the magnet as the V30 magnet feels just as strong when you are trying to free your steel wrench from it. V30 magnet is sandwiched between thick steel plates which adds to its flux coupling. EV magnet is sandwiched between two aluminum plates. Rear vented voice coil. V30 is cone vented through fabric dust cap. Cast frame of the EV will not magnetize like the V30. Hard paper gaskets makes removal difficult as they can tear or delaminate if surface adheres to the baffle board when back mounting them. They will add some weight to your cabinet as they are 6lbs heavier than the V30.

 

[bandit2013]

I decided to forego installing the CB75 in the traditional sized Egnator cab. The original V30s in my old Recto cab just seemed a bit off. If I had no other cab to compare them to I would think they were ok. The 16 year old V30 definitely had a much higher midrange presence compared to the newer ones. Lead to more ear fatigue then musical pleasure. After cutting the grass as it was long overdue considering the amount of rain this past week, I got to work popping the back off of the OS Recto cab. Note the white seams, that is sealant that I had spread in the assumption there was air seepage. I had to replace the center beam since the old one became loose and fell out. The EV speakers can really beat up a cabinet and shake loose any degraded glue joint. I spend more time playing at close to gig level but have loosened up and have changed my desires to loose my hearing. When I replaced the center beam I had to shape the end of the 2x4 to fit the pocket. Used a sanding disk on a hand held air tool. Glued and screwed it into place but that was not enough. Upper baffle vibrations between the two top speakers was extremely annoying, the upper brace took care of that. The dog had to offer some help by getting in the way. Had the speakers wired series parallel. It does not make any difference how they are wired as long as the speakers remain in-phase and total impedance is 8 ohms (7.6) when measured with an ohm meter. If I ever put these speakers back into this cab, it will be for resale only. CB75 sound way better than the old V30. I would say different than the V30 in the other cab, but yet similar. I can get similar note definition with the Roadster with the CB75 as I can get with the JP-2C and V30.

Returned the CB75 where they made better sense to store them. Back into the 16yr old OS Recto cab where they belong. I kept the boxes the speakers came in for storage of the old V30 just for future use if at all. This time as was the case with the last time I had them in the cab, wired in parallel/series. I had removed the stereo jacks long ago and have disabled the jack switch on the metal jack receptacle. Still have a parallel out jack wired.

My helper still laying in my way but he will move in a short while once I fire up the amps. The only time he will stay in the room when I play guitar is when I use the attenuator or if the guitar is acoustic.

Everything all hooked up an ready to go. Roadster sounds much better with the CB75. Even the JP-2C sounded better than it did the other day though the same speakers. The Creamback G12H75 is a better fit for the Roadster. It does cut some of the mids a bit, in a good way. Swapped cabs and still feel the creaback is better but that is my opinion. JP-2C, does not matter which cab as that amp is amazing though either. As for heads are concerned, the RA100 head has to be the heaviest and largest head I have. Not shown in the images of this post, the combo version did make it in the picture above. Obvious that the JP-2C is one of the smallest. Don't let the small size fool you. That little 100W monster is more than I can handle.

 

[peterdenny]

Looking good. I have one CB75 on order for the 4x12. Im thinking to put one top left and probably another bottom right. My thoughts are that would split them stereo on per side if I have my wiring correct. Im assuming that its wired L\R for the stereo. I really like that gray grill. Ive toyed with the vintage one on the sweetwater builder and I think it looks sweet. Which one is that and did you do that yourself?

 

[bandit2013]

The speaker cab on the left is the new cab I had ordered from Sweetwater. Grill cloth is gray and black and matches the RA100 Head. At one point they were offering this as an option when the Royal Atlantic was still in production. So I did not have to re-clad the grill. Also it is not as transparent when taking pictures with a flash as the black jute can be. Basically same material but much harder to see the speakers though the grill even with a flashlight. When I ordered it, I asked that it matched the RA100 Head in its standard color arrangement as I was uncertain if it was gray or cream. I did look up the specs on Mesa website, it is gray black weave.

 

[LouE]

I have a Vintage split back cab and have been contemplating which speakers to put where. Both equal top bottom or staggered. I'm going with series-parallel one jack. I have two V30's and two C90's coming. I also have thought about having Mesa make me an upper panel to have the option of fully enclosed. Sorry if i hijacked your thread. Any thoughts? My thoughts originally are V30's up top and C90 on bottom. I'm sure it goes back to preference, just wondered if anyone else has done it.

 

[peterdenny]

Really it depends. What I noticed on my RK combo was that the C90s offered better sparkly cleans. Big surprise. The CB75s I replaced it with sound good and more of a retrovibe without the harshness I feel the v30s have. But I wouldnt say any of them are dramatically different because sound is so subjective. I prefer C90s over V30s any day of the week and I think a C90\CB75 pairing would be good too. Im adding a pair of CB75s to my 4z12 I just got and plan to stagger them top right left bottom. I debated putting both on one side or both on top but that is what I think I am settled on. For me I am planning to run a rk2 head I just ordered and my marshall jvm410 into a single cab.

 

[bandit2013]

I would definitely use the V30 in the bottom if it is sealed and the MC90 on top in the open back part. I believe it also depends on the voice of the amp just as much as with the cabinet when it comes to speakers. Something like an RA100 would be best with the V30 in a sealed 412 format, open back I would go with the CB75. JP-2C would probably not matter but it will sound different with a change in speakers, I prefer the V30 with that amp as well. Roadster did quite well with everything I have tried with it. Actually prefer the Cream backs but I have another cab to turn to if needed. I would say if I only had the one 412, I would not change it unless I could not stand how it sounded or performed with the amp I intended to use with it.

 

[kdorsey]

Just to add my observations with some of these same speakers...

Depending on the application (musical genre and how hard I was driving the cabs), the C90s took on different personalities when mixed and matched wi other speakers and cab configs. For the modern-ish trio cover stuff, I stuck with a pair of C90s with the cab closed. Tighter, more articulate and responsive to picking dynamics. Open cab (top half of the half-back 2x12) changed the feel, considerably and was fine for the more classic rock cover band. But it also elevated the biting upper-mid range that characterizes the MkIII. It cuts in the mix well, but in a trio, it's too much. So I stuffed WGS ET65 and Vet30 in the other 2x12 with open top cab. For modern rock, not so much, but for classic rock and alt rock gigs, it transformed the rig. I also vastly prefer driving the amp with 16 ohm total load. That combination, along with a couple other tweaks, reinvented the amp for me. The EV12L hasn't been actively used in many years.

 

[peterdenny]

Well the strangest thing happened. I was all bummed about missing out on a red road king 2 head. I called the Guitar Center in CT and the next day it was sold. I kept looking, found nothing at the right price and about two weeks later suddenly there it is on the used site again in FL. I whipped out the credit card and bought it immediately. Hate paying tax and shipping but price was good. Came yesterday and is in Mint condition. No cable, paperwork or cover but I dont care. I also have someone who wants to come asap and look at the combo. Funny how this works out. Needless to say I got busy soldering. I put two CB75 in the top spots of the 4x12 and now have the Marshall and the Mesa hooked up via ABY. They actually sound awesome together. I retubed the RK head with my tubes in the combo (Mullard and GE NOS preamp, RCA recto tubes and current EH fat bottle and 6L6) and verified its all good and it is. So I took the CB75 16ohm out of the combo and put back the C90s and the CB will go into my 2x12 cab ill keep for portability since I am not keen on traveling with a 4x12.

 

[bandit2013]

That Cherry King looks great.

Perhaps I should have stated this long ago..... like the first sentence of the OP. I replaced the V30 after a long debuted trial of other speakers before returning to the V30 only to find these to be a bit way too bright and lacking most of what you should get from a V30.... I checked several times for origin of manufacture, yep, England.... As odd as it seems, the original V30 speakers from the 2k cab just do not sound identical to the ones in the 2014 cab. They do not even come close to those in the Vertical 2x12 I recently got from Sweetwater. I had thought that the extra bracing in the old cab on the baffle board was partly responsible. Perhaps it is, but had the V30 loaded in a lesser quality traditional sized 412 (Egnator) recently and could not stand them. I used that combination when I first got my RA100 head. When new Mesa 412 cab came in the picture, I soon realized the V30 became one of my favorite speakers. Roadster sounds great with the new cab, just could not marry into the older V30s. There must be something up with that year, say 1999-2000 production year. Come to think of it the MC90 in the Mark IV that I bought at the same time also had tonal issues. Perhaps that may be a link to my dislike of the MC90... It is a good speaker so why the dislike? No need to go into detail on that....

Perhaps if you had a great sounding 412 or 212, do not change a thing... I only follow the tone balloon if I have an issue or great dislike of something....

That small Recto vertical 2x12 is one heck of a performing cab. Sounds just like the OS Recto 412. Too bad it will not fit under a full sized head.. I bought it primarily for use with the JP-2C, as I was killing my hearing with the 412, who am I kidding, that little 2x12 is almost as loud and moves far more air than I expected. Will have to port the Roadster though it and followed by the RA100. Still, I prefer the tonal character of the CB75 speakers with the Roadster when used in the older cab. Similar but different than V30.. Actually with the newer 412 cab I was also getting ear fatigue with the Roadster but does not seem to be the case with the CB75 loaded 412. Not the case with the JP-2C..... or the RA100..... It is all good.

 

[peterdenny]

Sold the combo in crazy record time. Like right away off craigslist. Guy got a fair deal and I feel ok because I got a good deal and karma evens all. Im happy bc now I dont have to worry about the payoff. And the Cherry head looks the tits! Nice how things work out.

BTW what the hell with photobucket? Did it get hacked? All the pics are MIA.

 

[bandit2013]

Not sure about that, perhaps I did...... photobucket is what it is.... I will have to check into it. Tried to log onto photobucket.... No server would explain it... I noticed your pictures are missing too.

 

[peterdenny]

Looks like all the pictures are back. Guess something bombed out at Photobucket for a while.

 

[bandit2013]

I forgot to pay the bill. :|

...............oh wait..... never mind.... :|

Servers do go down every once in a while (speaking in general terms and not specific to just one site).

 

[peterdenny]

Hey Bandit, have you experimented with using two heads into one cab together stereo? Im wondering if I am having a phase issue because when I combine the marshall and the RK2 it seems like i lose all the bass and get too much treble. Separate them and it sounds fuller. Makes me wonder if I have a phase issue. I put the two CB in the top assuming one would be left and one right in the dual 4ohm stereo. Can you try this and let me know what you interpret? I dont think i pooched the wiring but its possible. Thanks. Peter

 

[afu]

http://tonereport.com/blogs/tone-tips/the-ins-and-outs-of-playing-in-stereo

 

[bandit2013]

Wires on the top speaker should cross over each other on the bottom speaker. "+" to "+" and "-" to "-". Each side (left and right) should look identical. Also the tabs of the speakers should be facing each other to keep the wires shorter. The difference is in the jack plate with the 4 jacks mounted on it. Did you leave the solid bent wires alone? I saw this link on 412 cab wiring. There is an image of the speaker plug plate in the thread. The black wire connections are hard to see but those solder to the lugs closest to the mouting plate. Also, have you checked impedance with a meter? It will not reveal a phase issue. I would also check the switch function on the Metal jack to verify it works with a plug inserted. Leave it unused for stereo mode.

http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35293

If the speakers sound okay with only one amp, using half of the cab, and the other using the other half by itself, If either amp lacks the bottom end you may have a phase issue with the one side or both. how does the cab sound in mono mode?
If it sounds weaker than you may have the speakers out of phase. Either that, the amps may be out of phase with each other when using them together for stereo. Are you using the FX loop on your Road king ? Not sure if that does the same phase shift like the Mark V does. Last time I ran two amps in the Recto cab it was with a Mark III and Mark IV. If you ran both the combo King and the Marshall before and no issue, could be phasing on the speaker wires.

If this is the first time you had phase issue, not sure if it is the CB speaker, I doubt they are out of phase with the other two. I would check wiring if you miss wired the speakers. Might sound honky if they are out of phase. No harm done but usually does not sound good. I did that once when working in a dark room. OOPS. yes, it can happen to anybody. Also if you did not reuse the original wires, best if the + and - are different colors. For Mono Stereo, I would probably use blue for the - on the one side, and red for the + on the other. That way it is easy to see what is what.

 

[peterdenny]

Well before when I combined them they sounded great. Today they felt like I lost all bass. Each sounds nice by itself. Dunno. I was really careful and I took pictures of the wiring first to try to avoid mixing things up. Ill have to mess with it more but most of my idea was to be able to run both heads together to track the same guitar parts separately and then blend them during mixing. Im suspecting something stupid here somewhere. Not using any fx loops because I had issues with that and I have a g-system I am slowly programing. I am using a Whirlwind ABY to split and combine. Maybe my issues lie there. I will need to mess with the single 8ohm but I think it was fine. More tomorrow. Peter

 

[bandit2013]

When you open up your cab, take some pictures of the jack plate wiring as well as the speaker wiring. The question is, are the CB 8 ohm speakers or are they 16 ohm speakers? I do recall you had a pair in your Road King Combo. If they are 8 ohms that would be great but running parallel 16 and 8 ohms together would give you a net impedance of 5.3 ohms. That should be fine but the influence would be stronger with the 8 ohm speaker more than the 16 ohm speaker. That would dramatically reduce the effectiveness of the two, as more current will pass though the 8 ohm load than the 16 ohm load.

If the CB are 16 ohms, you can do one of two things, get two other speakers in 16 ohms or replace the CB 16 with CB8. With all 16 ohms, you can use the full 412 with either amp (Road King should have a 16 ohm tap? if the Marshal is has a impedance switch I believe that has 16 ohms as well.) For stereo, the left and right will have an 8 ohm impedance. It is your call on that. Mesa's tend to drop some tone when using the 4 ohm output. Will have to explore that with my Recto cab. Have not tried the stereo setup yet. May do that since I am comparing the JP-2C to the Mark V and that would be something to consider.