Preamp tubes

[sevycat]

Where would your $$$ be best spent on preamp tubes? In the V1 position or Phase invertor?

I don't have a problem with the production tubes that came stock in my mark V, I just heard that you can buy NOS tubes and pop one in the phase invertor spot and you would know where you money went. That said, I have no way of knowing if I was getting good information or a bunch of bull.

 

[MrMarkIII]

"Bunch of bull" sounds about right. The lower the number of the pre-amp tube (V1, V2, etc.) the more effect it will have on your tone. All you need do is buy ONE decent tube of your choice. Put it in V1. Listen. Then put it in V7 (PI). Listen.
Simple.

 

[crane]

I wouldn't say that. PI is a very effective tube position, a bit more subtle than the input tube, but can really improve the sound by adding the character of the tube used to the whole amp sound.

 

[dodger916]

I wouldn't say that. PI is a very effective tube position, a bit more subtle than the input tube, but can really improve the sound by adding the character of the tube used to the whole amp sound.

+1. The PI/driver has a global affect on tone. Given the complexity of the Mark V, I wonder if the PI is now the single most influential of the 7(!) 12ax7s!

 

[94Tremoverb]

The bottom line is that they all make a difference, some more, some less, and how important each tube is varies from amp to amp. (Apart from very specific positions such as reverb drivers, and even then the effect they have on the tone of the reverb can appear to impact on the overall sound.) There are no hard and fast rules, you need to experiment. Luckily this is easy to do because preamp tubes don't need bias adjustment and are simple swap-and-listen components. In some amps V1 isn't even the first gain stage anyway.

Worse, I actually think it's the other way round - not so much that a good tube in V1 (if that is in fact the first position) makes the most difference, but a *bad* tube anywhere else can render it much less effective or even useless. So putting just one high-quality tube - either V1 or the PI - in an amp that is otherwise full of modern Russian or Chinese junk tubes might not give the results that it would if the other tubes were already good. In that case the PI may seem to make the most difference because it is not followed by any other preamp tubes; but fit good ones throughout and now V1 may make the biggest difference.

Imagine looking through several sheets of glass stacked up together. If they're all fairly clear, you will see a noticeable change if you replace one with a darker or lighter sheet. But if there's a frosted sheet in there - it doesn't matter where - then changing any of the others might not make any difference. Perhaps not a very exact analogy but I think it helps.

In other words, I would spend whatever money you have on a decent full set of NOS tubes of fair quality, rather than one or two outstanding and expensive ones, no matter how good they are... which is a matter of opinion anyway, I think the most hyped of the NOS tubes aren't significantly better (if at all) than a lot of the much lower priced ones - just different, and then it becomes a matter of taste.

 

[sevycat]

In other words, I would spend whatever money you have on a decent full set of NOS tubes of fair quality, rather than one or two outstanding and expensive ones, no matter how good they are... which is a matter of opinion anyway, I think the most hyped of the NOS tubes aren't significantly better (if at all) than a lot of the much lower priced ones - just different, and then it becomes a matter of taste.

Any recommendations on fair quality? I am guessing that your saying steer clear of the telefunken as they seem to command high dollar.

 

[94Tremoverb]

I don't even like them, I find them a bit bland sounding. They're a highly prized tube for hi-fi - which is why they're so expensive - but that doesn't mean they're great for guitar. I even think Mullards are overpriced - they're a good tube, but not so much better than other NOS types that they should be worth several times as much.

Any of the old-production US and European tubes from the 1950s up to the mid 80s are good, including the east-European ones. I particularly like RFTs (East German) which are almost the exact opposite of Telefunkens in that they are harmonically rich and aggressive-sounding - and also don't tend to go microphonic like some of the more expensive ones can very annoyingly do. Also GE, Sylvania, RCA, Brimar, Mazda etc for a more traditional tone - they're no longer as cheap as they used to be but aren't anywhere near as expensive as you might think. Shop around and you should be able to get a full set of types like these for less than the cost of one Telefunken.

 

[212Mavguy]

Trem, I can't add anything to this thread that you have not already said...

Kudos!

 

[rabies]

I had some Telefunken 12AX7 with the diamonds on the bottom (long-plate preamp tube). They were pretty decent to my ears but they did seem to have a more aggressive/hi-gain quality to them so the pinched harmonics seemed to come out easier than with the JJ ECC803S tubes I have now in my Rivera.

I'm not sure if the NOS tubes are worth the higher cost as any preamp tube can go microphonic (although these were fine for around 1-2 yrs in my amp).

I'm considering a Tung-Sol in V1 but Doug at Doug's tubes prefers tube cocktails for the preamp section and apparently would never recommend one brand for all positions in the preamp section. Not sure how valid this is or not.

 

[rabies]

what's a good tube cocktail if you use a lot of distortion (preamp and possibly even power amp) and play lots of jazz chords and want to maintain tonal definition so it doesn't sound mushy?

Doug stated that the E34L's sound mushy. Perhaps this is true but it depends on the settings. He also stated they're unreliable, which is not a fair assessment based on my experiences with it.

 

[94Tremoverb]

It depends. I've had all-GE (pre, power and rectifier) in my Tremoverb and it sounds fantastic. At some times in their most classic eras Fender used all-RCA and Marshall used all-Mullard and both these sound great, possibly unbeatable, as well. Fender SFs came with all-GE preamps and Sylvania power tubes and I haven't found a better combination if you want what those amps were originally designed to do - likewise, Marshalls from the mid 70s came with all-RFT preamps and IMO there isn't a better set for those amps. Maybe they were intentionally voiced around those tubes...

From my experience almost anything will sound better for harmonics and less muddy in general than a JJ, by the way. They seem to be fairly reliable (by modern tube standards, I've still had failures right out of the box though) but I really do not like the way they sound. That's what I don't like about new tubes - they all seem to have a sort of harsh and fuzzy but also lifeless and muddy sound at the same time, if that makes sense. I know there are dozens of different ones and they all sound different, but they seem to share this characteristic IMO. The old tubes all sound like they have more clarity, depth and life to them, without the harshness, right across the board of tone variation (even Telefunkens). Just my opinion.

 

[rabies]

From my experience almost anything will sound better for harmonics and less muddy in general than a JJ, by the way. They seem to be fairly reliable (by modern tube standards, I've still had failures right out of the box though) but I really do not like the way they sound.

are you referring to the preamp or power amp tubes in terms of the harmonics/muddiness?

 

[rabies]

also, i thought JP of Dream theater actually uses the stock Mesa tubes. is this true? if it's good enuf for him...

 

[screamingdaisy]

Where do Jan/Philips fit in all of this? I can usually find them pretty cheap.

 

[94Tremoverb]

JJ preamps are worse for the mud than the power tubes, but I don't really like either of them for tone.

JAN/Philips tubes are some of the highest quality tubes ever made, period. This goes exactly to show what I meant about quality not being very (if at all) related to price with NOS tubes. As to tone, that's personal preference. Individual types vary, but like most of the makers there is an overall 'family sound' - I would say they're generally clear-sounding and can seem a bit cold, but they also have very good depth and detail, if that's your taste. The power tubes are getting rarer now, especially the 7581As which are basically the same as the Philips/Sylvania Mesa STR415s but with an even more ruggedised military-spec construction. I put a pair of these in my DC-5 and it got so much more bandwidth and punch you would think it was a 100-watter. In fact, it increased the power from a measured 55W with the stock tubes to 63W, which is a huge increase just from changing tubes of the same basic type. From a technical point of view I would guess that they all have a very hard vacuum compared to a lot of the other makes, which would explain the sound and power, and also the very good reliability and life expectancy.

For what it's worth if I was a major label artist I would use the stock tubes in my touring amps too. On that kind of gig it really wouldn't be the highest priority - in a little club venue where both you and the audience *are* hearing the amp I would go with NOS every time, but mic'ed through a huge PA, hearing it through the stage monitors or IEMs, with the amp getting moved around every night by roadies, let alone airline cargo handlers, keeping spares, replaceability (of the amp as well as the tubes) if something goes wrong... stock all the way, there's just no point in getting too fussy about it.

 

[eudaimonia02912]

I've done a ton of tube swapping on my Mark V. I like to experiment. To my ears, V1 and V7 can make a significant difference on global tone. V2 makes a significant difference for channel 2 only. The other slots are fairly subtle.

Personally, of everything I've tried, I've liked an NOS RFT in V1 the best. I think I have a Mullard Reissue in V7 right now, and I can't remember what the other tubes are.

 

[sevycat]

I've done a ton of tube swapping on my Mark V. I like to experiment. To my ears, V1 and V7 can make a significant difference on global tone. V2 makes a significant difference for channel 2 only. The other slots are fairly subtle.

Personally, of everything I've tried, I've liked an NOS RFT in V1 the best. I think I have a Mullard Reissue in V7 right now, and I can't remember what the other tubes are.

What type of music do you play?

 

[sevycat]

News update, I purchased a NOS RFT, a couple of the Tung-sol and Mullard reissue preamp tubes. Hope that I find what I am looking for in these preamp tubes.

 

[EtherealWidow]

You'll have to give us another update afterward. I await with bated breath.

 

[mylo]

I have been trying different tubes in my Dual Rec. So far I favor EH12AX7s in V1, V2 and V5. JJ 12AX7's in V3 and V4 ( Cathode followers) Haven't tried a Tung Sol in V1 yet but may try it soon. :?