Potential New JP2C Owner

[bandit2013]

Single coil response, which is better? The only way to answer that is to say both. Love the JP2C for many styles of music I play. Depends on what type of tone you are after. Dial the gain back and go for it. I have not had the Mark VII that long to explore its full potential, but it has many voicings that work well for different styles of music.

I do have one SSS Strat body made of swamp ash. One heavy axe but sounds great with the JP, Mark VII and the Badlander (I know you did not ask for that one in your question). The pickups are Zexcoil legacy models and are humbuckers of sorts. More of a strat sound but will take no a PAF tone if you max out the guitar volume. The middle pickup is more of a P90 character, no tone control as wanted tone on neck and bridge only. I do not always play heavy metal music. Mostly classic rock like Led Zeppelin or some Pink Floyd. Even dive into Deep Purple or some Stixx. Before the Mark VII came along, I was using mostly the JP2C or Royal Atlantic.

 

[ntotoro]

My single-coil guitars are a Suhr Classic T, a Modern T and a few Classic S's. They run the gamut of Suhr single-coils, but aren't overly powerful. Man, if the Badlander can do it, suggest away!!! That's what we're here for! I want that girth behind the notes, muscles, especially with single-coils... but not overpowering. Not so much that you can plug in 3-4 different guitars and all you hear is the amp.

Blackmore is my biggest influence, but that's not necessarily the sound I'm looking for. I just use single-coils a ton. The Shiva comes close, but overpowers your guitar on the in-between positions (you hear more the amp than the guitar) with gain and doesn't sing.

 

[bandit2013]

I get it. I have a few HSS Charvel guitars. Most are HH and one is an HSH. All have the 5 way super switch so there are combinations of single coil, humbucker, you name it. Even the Roadster or MWDR are capable of use without being too much of a burden on the sound. My personal favorite amps on my "A" list are as follows: Royal Atlantic RA100, JP2C, Mark VII and Badlander. Each of them have good dynamics even with moderate gain settings. I feel the Mark VII has the most sensitivity of the 4 mentioned. RA100 fall in a close second and the JP2C and Badlander are about the same. How much volume you get after the amp cleans up before it drops off too much when rolling back on the guitar volume. Other than that, JP2C, Mark VII and Badlander provide a different experience as they are not identical but can be dialed in to match. Obviously the Mark VII and JP2C are the closest to each other but different to some extent. So with passive pickups you get all the flavors of the pickup selector without loss of character and only getting the amp and not hearing the tonal variations of different pickup combinations. That is what you get with active pickups. Not much of a change and it all remains the same.

Also, if you are running a hot gain setting, you will get more of the amp than the character of the instrument. That probably does not matter what amp you are using. Here are just a few of the Charvel guitars in my arsenal. OK, they are not very expensive and may not have the thick top wood like Suhr or Carvin/Kiesle, Gibson, PRS but they play so well. Mostly alder but one is mahogany and the other is Okoume. I can hear the difference between them. Even with the Carvin guitars having much the same pickup, the difference in tone woods and such make a huge difference. Even the Epiphone Les Paul sounds great (not made the same way as a Gibson). Got in that groove with the budget friendly guitars, if they get stolen, they are replaceable. The Carvin/Kiesel guitars, not so, each has their own character even if they are the same. Not trying to show off here. Just relating that different tone woods, pickups and such do matter and the Mark VII, JP2C and Badlander will keep you happy. Yeah, I sort of got hooked on the Charvel brand. There is reason why my bandmates call my home the music store. May as well be one. I would highly recommend trying out the BAD and Mark VII if you get a chance. It may add fuel to the GAS but at least you will have some feel for the amp before buying it. I believe Guitar Center is now selling Mesa again. Also, at that place, a good opportunity to grab some crappy guitar and see how good it sounds. It may not feel all that great, but is a good litmus test to hear what the amp can do. You could opt to bring your own guitar but I found that to be more of an issue. Just make use of the stuff there. I am sure that what you got is far better.

 

[ntotoro]

That's a HELL of a group you've got there!!! The reason I like Suhr so much... and I've gotten some killer deals... is that they're more idealized Fender designs than super modern guitars. I still like a 42mm nut width, for instance. Just the way my hand fits. Super wide-thin necks cause me fatigue... things like that. These take the ideas I love about classic Fenders and simply idealize them for me.

Whenever I go to a store, I usually bring my own guitar. Takes some of the mystery out and gives me a common denominator. Now more curious about the BAD. Would you say it sings for leads without a pedal?

 

[rarebitusa]

That's a HELL of a group you've got there!!! The reason I like Suhr so much... and I've gotten some killer deals... is that they're more idealized Fender designs than super modern guitars. I still like a 42mm nut width, for instance. Just the way my hand fits. Super wide-thin necks cause me fatigue... things like that. These take the ideas I love about classic Fenders and simply idealize them for me.

Whenever I go to a store, I usually bring my own guitar. Takes some of the mystery out and gives me a common denominator. Now more curious about the BAD. Would you say it sings for leads without a pedal?

yea, I have the opposite issue... my fat fingertips prefer a wider nut. Those Suhrs are really nice axes.

FWIW haven't had a huge amount of time on the BAD 50W yet but the crush voicing for single note work is pretty nice. Plenty of gain, fluid with note bloom. It's effortless to dial in that "increasing sustain to feedback" thing. In the other amps it seems to take more work and tweaking to get the same effect. It's certainly pedal friendly and I find running a GEQ in the loop helps shape the tone. But then I do that with all the amps (save the V) anyway.

Would defer to others on the SCs as the balance of my axes are HumBkrs.

 

[ntotoro]

yea, I have the opposite issue... my fat fingertips prefer a wider nut. Those Suhrs are really nice axes.

FWIW haven't had a huge amount of time on the BAD 50W yet but the crush voicing for single note work is pretty nice. Plenty of gain, fluid with note bloom. It's effortless to dial in that "increasing sustain to feedback" thing. In the other amps it seems to take more work and tweaking to get the same effect. It's certainly pedal friendly and I find running a GEQ in the loop helps shape the tone. But then I do that with all the amps (save the V) anyway.

Would defer to others on the SCs as the balance of my axes are HumBkrs.

I get it... it's weird, that 1mm makes a difference to me. I guess it's age LOL! The EJ Strat does that to me, too, but it's the neck shape combined with the 12" radius (it has a 42mm nut).

I'll definitely have to try out the BAD!!! Be nice if it had a third channel or even the second channel cloned as a third.

 

[bandit2013]

Bad is decent with the SC, just as much as the JP and MK7. All three amps have good tone balance so there is no dominating overtones you cannot get away from.

Boost it if you want too. That works with all three amps, BAD, JP, Mark VII. I was digging the flux drive with the JP2C. I do not favor the shred voicing. I would rather use the grid slammer or flux drive.

 

[ntotoro]

Understood. Shred mode seemed like a Djenty high-midrange thing that seemed cool with a 7, but I couldn't really test it out with the amp in the condition that it was (it's no longer in my possession as of yesterday). I could hear the difference, though.

I do like my KoT, which doesn't color whatever amp I'm using to hit it. I just don't want to have to use a pedal LOL! That's my main issue with the Shiva.

 

[bandit2013]

No pedals required with the Badlander or the Mark VII. Does not mean you can't use them though. Some people will do that. Just about every video I have seen for the BAD, Mark VII, JP2C, they are all pushing the amp with some artificial (solid state) overdrive. Perhaps I am too old school.

As for the Shiva, had to watch a demo video on it due to lack of familiarity. I see now. That amp sounds comparable to the Mesa Stiletto ACE in a way (that is at least based on the stiletto stage II design). Just has a bit more of a brown sound. Sort of reminds me of the Triple Crown in a way.

The Badlander on the other hand, different amp. I would not say it is Mark or Recto. If you think about it, more like a hot rodded 2204 JCM800 that you do not have to push the envelope for it to rip as you can dial the bad in for bedroom level goodness even at 100W (BAD100 only). Variac power sags things down a bit and that sounds great too. If you want reverb, you need to run something in the FX loop. No FX loop control, whatever you plug into the FX loop will be in the signal path.

Mark VII has some similar traits to the BAD in crunch and VII modes. Actually, Mesa did a good job with the 7 modes (two are repeats). All of the power modes work great, no compromise here. Reverb is nice on the clean modes. FX loop has full on/off control with footswitch or mini toggle on front panel. If you wanted to turn on/off the FX loop on the JP2C, you need aftermarket midi control for that. It is either on, or waiting for midi to change its state.

 

[ntotoro]

It seems a lot of people push the amps to get them "tighter" or more of a modern tone. I assumed they were turning down the gain and hitting it with a pedal with the level high for something different. I was wrong... so wrong LOL!

I had to use the KoT as more of a lead boost or clean boost with the Shiva because it just doesn't sing for leads. I'd rather have that inside the amp and not need a pedal for it. The Shiva has a low-mid thing happening that is all Bogner. People joke it's about 95% Bogner DNA and 5% Marshall. That's sometimes what gets in-between sounds lost on that amp.

Ironically, I had a Stiletto before getting the Shiva. I got the Shiva in 2005 and got the Stiletto when it first came out. The Shiva just did "that thing" better for me, even as under-appreciated as I felt the Stiletto was.

I have a BOSS ES-5, so the MIDI thing would be under control. I think it just took me all this time to realize that whether it was Bogner, Friedman or whoever... the gainy Marshall thing just doesn't work for me.

 

[rarebitusa]

I get it... it's weird,

Heck no... not weird at all. At least not in my experience. What works well for one is completely understandable not to work for someone else.

It seems a lot of people push the amps to get them "tighter" or more of a modern tone. I assumed they were turning down the gain and hitting it with a pedal with the level high for something different. I was wrong... so wrong LOL!

I had to use the KoT as more of a lead boost or clean boost with the Shiva because it just doesn't sing for leads. I'd rather have that inside the amp and not need a pedal for it. The Shiva has a low-mid thing happening that is all Bogner. People joke it's about 95% Bogner DNA and 5% Marshall. That's sometimes what gets in-between sounds lost on that amp.

Ironically, I had a Stiletto before getting the Shiva. I got the Shiva in 2005 and got the Stiletto when it first came out. The Shiva just did "that thing" better for me, even as under-appreciated as I felt the Stiletto was.

I have a BOSS ES-5, so the MIDI thing would be under control. I think it just took me all this time to realize that whether it was Bogner, Friedman or whoever... the gainy Marshall thing just doesn't work for me.

Did the Shiva video thing too. always gravitate to the simple ones, unprocessed ones cause they reveal more of the true character of the amp. Yea it certainly has a bit more mid focus then an 800. Cool amp.

I hesitate to make any definite comparisons from vids cause side by side is the only way to make that assessment... but the Shiva clean chan to me is much like the BAD and like other Marshalls it's got that grit on top of it. It's not that Fender like clean ala LSS, or V or JP2C. I know el34s kinda skew that, but it's what I've always liked about the Stiletto it can get closer to that with the Tite Clean or even Crunch with the gain down.

Anyway, your focus is a singing lead without a pedal. I'm wondering if something like the VII would provide more voicing options to get you there or perhaps other Bogner models which have more gain. But the VII is that Mark thing and less the Marshall. I agree with Bandit that the BAD is definitely more the JCM deal.

 

[ntotoro]

If the VII is less the Marshall thing, then that's the direction I want to go LOL!!! It took me a long time to think "Maybe the Marshall thing just isn't for me."

I can get cool bridge pickup sounds, then my single-coils in the front sound way off. When I try something Mark-ish, I get a more bold single-coil sound from the front PLUS I can get a great bridge pickup!

Now... the JP2C versus the VII...

 

[bandit2013]

At least things narrow down to two potential Mesa amps. A third if you find a JP2C that behaves like it should. Never really felt the Bad was held back for lead playing. But that is just me I suppose. Dail back on the volume control, boost the gain use crush and it is as close to a Mark IV as you can get for not being a Mark amp. Sure, the same tricks you can do with a Mark using the pre-gain tone controls will not translate well in a post gain tone stack (that is more like a 3 band EQ) with presence control. That seems to be there on the crunch and VII modes of the MK7 too.

Mark VII is a jack of all trades, It is almost like having the complete Badlander, IIB, IIC+ and IV in one amp. IIC and IV would also cover the JP2C. I feel the BAD crush is closer to the IV mode that it is to the VII mode. Mess around with the amps long enough, they all start to sound the same. Perhaps I need a break.

 

[bandit2013]

If the VII is less the Mark thing, then that's the direction I want to go LOL!!! It took me a long time to think "Maybe the Marshall thing just isn't for me."

I can get cool bridge pickup sounds, then my single-coils in the front sound way off. When I try something Mark-ish, I get a more bold single-coil sound from the front PLUS I can get a great bridge pickup!

Now... the JP2C versus the VII...

Are you talking about the mode or the amp? Mark VII mode is a slight shift to rectifier sound which is what the Badlander has going for it as it has more of a Mark tone than Rectifier. Hearing them side by side and let your ears provide you with the information you seek is the best way to find out.

JP clean and MK7 FAT are very close, JP much harder to coax into clipping, MK7 will clip quite well with the gain control if you want that. JP CH2, very much on par with the IIC mode on the MK7. There is a difference in the presence characteristic. MK7 presence is like an in-between mode to the pushed or pulled presence on the JP. CH2 to CH3 on the JP does have a moderate shift in the gain characteristic, however, it is more dramatic with the Mk7 when changing from IIC to IV modes.

The modes that become difficult to replicate with the JP would be the clean, crunch, IIB modes. All of the other modes on the MK7 can be duplicated with the JP.

But can they do the Ola setting of death, yep. The pushed gain and treble and dialed back mid and bass seems to have more sinister sound on the Mark VII than with the JP. (need to change preamp tubes to see if that helps). I would not say one is better than the other, each has their own characteristics that will set them apart from each other. Mostly due to the power section than the preamp. No schematics of either amp available to see what makes it different.

The extra bonus items, one has the original cab clone and the other has the IR loaded two notes torpedo module in it.

Midi by control command numbers may be different between the Mesa amps that have that built in. The control change commands will overlap and have different functions. Meaning the Triple Crown, JP2C and the Mark VII will do something different with the same control command number issued to it. Midi program change command, you basically set up the amp to do what you want for that program change instruction which requires settings to be stored for recall. That would be compatible with all three amps sharing a common midi network or buss along with effects or other amps on the same buss.

 

[ntotoro]

Oops... I meant to say "less the Marshall thing," but went back and corrected myself. My fault.

I'm looking more for CLEAN cleans than pushed. Not necessarily Rockman-like cleans, but not really any or much breakup at all. I liked how the clean in the JP2C seemed a little more compressed, for a lack of a way to put it. Notes rang out similarly and the clean channel was a bit more forgiving. I just wished MkIV and MKIIC+ modes on the MkVII were on different channels! Tough to fight over which to use for leads.

Do both modes (MkIV and MkIIC+) seem to keep some heft with single-coils? Some weight behind them, not the stringy gainy Marshall thing. I like the low-mid thing happening and it fills space in my band above the bass player. The Shiva does that, just doesn't sing and I'm looking for something that does that all in the amp.

An IR loader vs Cab Clone does seem like a huge advantage live, but Cab Clone realistically is probably ok for live use and no one in the audience would notice. I'd be using a cab on-stage, either way. Such a tough choice... I know the VII is ultimately more versatile, but if the JP2C has the basics...

I seem to read a lot about the JP2C not having gain mid-gain tones, which is an area where the VII excels.

 

[rarebitusa]

Yea when you mix in the live deal as a major requirement that skews a number of things. In my experience the countless number of YT vids, while helpful to assess tone, won't provide that live perspective. The choice of speakers/cab are more of a factor.

FWIW I was gigging my LSS for quite a while and while the cab choice / speaker G12-65 sounded great in a room it was not cutting thru in a live mix. Tried others with little improvement. I'm not a huge v30 fan but based on a suggestion I swapped over to one and the live sound of that rig was sooo much better in the mix, even though in isolation the v30 would have never been a 1st choice.

 

[ntotoro]

That's true. My Shiva/Bogner OS 2x12 has been great in terms of filling in live tone, both rehearsal and gigs... just doesn't sing and gets a little hairy with the boost on at times. It has punch and a low-mid thing that fills space. Above the bass player and below everything else.

Everything I've read and seen says the JP2C fills that role, doesn't come across as Marshall-stringy with single-coils... but doesn't have the greatest mid-gain sound. It's like awesome clean, awesome high-gain, meh mid-gain. Is that the case?

My OS 2x12 with whatever V30's Reinhold uses sounds better in the band mix than my same, exact cab with a V30/65W Creamback combo... which sounds better by itself. The V30 does make up for some of the darkness of the 65W Creamback and works better with a more Marshall-y circuit. The V30 OS 2x12 just seems to work better in the full band. I may add a vertical Mesa 2x12 at some point and can get one locally use in great shape for the cost of a new 1x12.

V30's never seem to be my first choice, but man... they do work. Occasionally I've used the Shiva in an old Mesa metal-panel 4x12 my drummer owns that sounds TOTALLY different in every way I can imagine. Not sure what's in it.

 

[bandit2013]

Ok, I replace the preamp tubes in the JP2c just to see if that makes much of a difference. It did not. Amp still sounds the same but with a bit less noise floor. (I am using the JJ E83CC tubes this time as I felt they sounded really good in the Mark VII but only have one set to use ). Anyways, when you consider the overall tone of the three amps, JP2C, Badlander, Mark VII. The JP2C has more depth to it, darker, more lower midrange and bottom end. Badlander sits in the middle and the Mark VII has more brightness but yet balanced. Gain structures have the same characteristics but I feel the Mark VII has a bit more gain or drive compared to the other two.

Comparing the clean channel, JP2C has a warm tone, similar to the badlander if you dial back on the gain control and even the Mark VII fat is on the same level, again keeping the gain out of the clipping range. The Clean mode (less push than the FAT) is more open and airy of sorts. Less coloring of the tone and is also just as pleasant to listen too. Clean on the BAD is more compressed as it will be considering it gets pressed into a DC coupled cathode follower tone stack driver (does not make use of the fender circuit like the Mark VII or JP2C which is part of its heritage in a way).

I always felt that the JP2C would get lost in the mix due to its darker overtones. I know for a fact the Badlander does not get lost in the mix as we use that when the group is together, I am playing drums so both the bass rig and guitar rig are facing me in the small room.

I was curious how close the crunch on the Mark VII would get to the CH2 on the JP2C. Surprisingly close, sine it is very similar to the crunch on the BAD.

Perhaps the Mark VII is much closer to a Mark III as I recall many saying it was brighter than a IIC+. Not in a bad way, just has more cut in the mix. I had used the Mark III for many years in a band setting as the only guitarist and did not have any issue cutting through. That was just with a combo amp which had the EVM12L Black Shadow speaker.

As for the VII and IV modes, they are both aggressive, more so than the JP2C with the gain pulled. Perhaps the warmer character of the JP2C or the Badlander would be a benefit for all single coil pickups especially when it comes to the bridge pickup.

That is where it becomes most important take the opportunity to try them yourself with the guitar of your choice. One of the three may actually stand out more than the other two. Sure, just a quick play through may not be enough but it will give you a better idea how it compares to amps you are more familiar with. Hard to say what is out there in inventory to try out. Most of the places I buy Mesa gear from keep selling out.

To be honest, I used to hate V30 speakers. Now I sort of like them. My first experience was with the 70W rated version that came in an OS Recto 412 cab, 1999-2000 year. Replaced them with EVM12L Black Lable speakers. Still the V30 sounded better with the RA100 so I got another 412 (in 2014) and that was totally different. the 60W-V30 versions are not voiced the same way as the 70W V30. That is what is in my Silver Jubilee cab but with a Marshall label on them. Works for the 2555x but not so great with any of the Mesa amps. Tried to run the JP2C through the Marshall cab, it was flubby as all heck. That was the issue I had with the first OS Recto 412 cab. The EV speakers fixed that problem. The newer Mesa cabs with the 60W V30 are much better with the Mesa amps. Even the Marshall sounded great through those speakers.

 

[ntotoro]

Sounds like the JP2C may be the continuation of the sounds I'm looking for, in that case. Especially with single-coils. That low-mid heft just gives a bit of a boost and fill to everything we do... provided it doesn't completely overshadow the guitars themselves. When I switch guitars, I want to be able to tell I switched guitars, pickups, positions and etcetera.

Even my humbuckers are more hot-PAF in terms of output. 9k at hottest, unbalanced coils. So, not exactly dark and thick. That in combination with the fact that I have literally ONE guitar with a humbucker in the front LOL!

V30's took me a loooooooong time to appreciate. I used to think "Oh... I just like how this cab is voiced around them," but came to realize I liked them more for what they actually were.

 

[ntotoro]

Sweetwater is saying one won't arrive until July and that's tentative LOL!

How are the current vertical 2x12's with the JP2C?