PA Systems. School Me. UPDATE

[ryjan]

My band and I are looking for a PA system mainly for practice and very small gigs. None of us has ever messed with PA stuff before besides plugging a mike in. We have 2 singers, 2 electric guitars, 1 bass player, a drummer and we play hard rock/metal. So, for those of you with this kind of expertise, would we be on the right track with something like this?
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Phonic-Powerpod-740-Plus---S712-PA-System-764637-i1395802.gc
Thanks for the help.

 

[gonzo]

Carvin.

 

[MesaGod666]

This is what my band uses for practice and home party gigs. It's taken a beating and keeps going.

http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Peavey-XR-8600-PR-15-PA-Package?sku=631377

It's awesome. No Feedback, vox cut through with power, and it's durable. You can pick one up used for like $600 or so.

 

[MrMarkIII]

Add up all the output wattages of all your amps.
For example, two guitars and one bass @ 100 watts each = 300 watts.
Add 100 watts for your drummer. 300 + 100 = 400 watts.
That's how much P.A. power you need, minimum. Each mains speaker needs to be able to handle at least that (400 watts each).

 

[pokerrules47]

I've been in a lot of jamming bands... and I've always found that having enough power, but not too much, is the key. I've been in bands that had as little as 90w for mains and we got the vocals pushing through the mix fine (with a drummer/bass and 2 guitars). For jamming, just about any system will do.

Placing your speakers in the right spots in the jam space is very important. As well as getting the right voicing for each channel.

Another thing you should consider is the size of the room you plan on jamming in. If the room is very small, getting a good mix will be difficult. The cross talk and feedback will kill you.

Here's some hints, you may find useful. Some of them will sound really obvious, but I don't know where you are at so I'll say them anyway.

1) Don't point your speakers in the direction of your Microphones.
Again, this sounds obvious, but a lot of bands wonder why they can't get the vocal volume loud enough

2) Main vocals need to be above the range of the band in general. If your vocalist has a deep voice.. use the EQ to straighten it out. Don't use the "classic V" for vocals. Pump the mids and highs, and if your mixer has a low cut filter, use it. If you are hearing a lot of mid/low freq feedback (i.e. a hum or howl), you have too much bass on the vocals. If it's piercing or screeching, too much treble.

3) Make sure your drummer has a monitor. He needs to hear certain cues clearly. Headphones are best I find.

4) Use dynamics in the guitars. Make sure you give the vocalist the room he/she needs to be heard during the verse/chorus. The time to grind is during the intro/solo and fills.

5) Get a decent Mic Pre for the lead vocal. Something with a tube in it. You will notice a significant difference. It will make that muddy vocal sound brighten up quite a bit. The mic preamps in those cheap chinese all in one mixer/amp/speaker packages (i.e. the one you linked us to) are junk. This does not mean the unit is junk, it's perfectly fine for what you are going to use it for.

6) Get a decent field recorder to record your jams. Something that can record the whole session, without being too difficult to deal with afterward. I use a Tascam DR-07. I find a good spot in the room that can hear all the instruments with a decent mix. I record each session we do, and analyze the recordings after. I like to stand close to the recorder to stop it between songs, so that I can load each one on my ipod individually instead of one big recording. This will help you identify problems with your songs.

There is a lot more to getting a good sound, but this should get you started

 

[Heritage Softail]

Great post. Exactly why this forum is the best.

 

[kiff]

http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Peavey-XR-8600-PR-15-PA-Package?sku=631377

I would definitely prefer this one over the one you posted ryjan. These small PA's are very limited. "Small gigs" often turn into "medium" gigs and those powered mixers quickly lose their capability to keep up, especially when playing hard rock/metal.

I've been in a lot of jamming bands... and I've always found that having enough power, but not too much, is the key.

I'd have to disagree with that. Of course taking a 20,000w PA to a house party is overkill, but in general, the more overhead the better.

 

[ryjan]

Thanks for the info guys. Especially about the mic pre. I was considering getting one just for the lead vocals but wasn't sure if it would make a big difference. Do I just run it inline between the mike and the amp?

 

[ryjan]

Thanks kiff, I would prefer the Peavey also but only have about a $400 budget. To make up for wimpy power and for larger gigs in the future I would add on some powered speakers down the road when my wallet permitted.

 

[pokerrules47]

You can start with something like the ART Tube MP. This will give you an idea of what they can do. They are inexpensive and a lot of bands use them. You run your Mic into it, then out to the board. I usually try bypassing the pre in the board if possible.

Usually the mic pre's in those cheaper boards are only active in the XLR inputs. If you are unsure, plug a mic directly into the TS jack on the board, and move the gain knob. If it effects the sound of the mic, then the TS jacks are wired through the preamp as well.

So, go

mic>xlr>preamp>TS>mixer

or

mic>xlr>preamp>xlr>mixer and fool around with the gain levels (on both the pre and the mixer) until you go insane. LOL

Oh, and get a decent mic... start with the Shure SM series. They too are relatively inexpensive. Buy new, so you won't be licking someone else's spit. NO ONE sings into my vocal mic... LOL

Thanks for the info guys. Especially about the mic pre. I was considering getting one just for the lead vocals but wasn't sure if it would make a big difference. Do I just run it inline between the mike and the amp?

 

[pokerrules47]

I've been in a lot of jamming bands... and I've always found that having enough power, but not too much, is the key.

I'd have to disagree with that. Of course taking a 20,000w PA to a house party is overkill, but in general, the more overhead the better.

Overhead is one thing... but getting to the sweet spot (yes even in a solid state PA amp) is critical in getting decent sound.

I use 2x SR1530's (500w each) and it's way too much to jam with. Of course, I don't need subs with these as they are 3 way. If I was jamming in a 30x40 room it would be different, but we're in about 10x16 and it sounds thin and cheap until we crank it enough, but when we do get it there.. it's very difficult to avoid feedback.

Even PA amps lack sensitivity and dynamics at low volume. The saving grace with the SR1530 is it runs at 100% all the time (the power amps I mean). You control all your levels from the board.

Our main jam area has a Behringer pm880 and we only run vocals through it.

Oh, the other thing I wanted to mention is if your drummer doesn't like headphones, tell him to get himself a powered speaker, and run a line over for him. Don't slave more speakers off your mains. If your mixer supports sub mixes, you can sub what he wants to hear down to him, assuming the mixer can also redirect the submix back into the main (most can).

When I monitor on stage, I only want snare, vox and sometimes bass guitar in my submix. And only bass if the stage is big and the bass amp is far away from me. I use the snare to time my lead breaks and solos, the vox for cuing, and I hang off the bass for my rhythm guitar parts.

My brother in law is a different animal when it comes to monitoring, he likes everything, including himself in the mix. To each their own.

 

[kiff]

I use 2x SR1530's (500w each) and it's way too much to jam with. Of course, I don't need subs with these as they are 3 way. If I was jamming in a 30x40 room it would be different, but we're in about 10x16 and it sounds thin and cheap until we crank it enough, but when we do get it there.. it's very difficult to avoid feedback.

yea, I just took "very small gig" as in a small bar, like a 30x40 + room or whatnot. get a small bar full of beer chugging rockers and, well, you can easily pop one of those powered mixers

 

[pokerrules47]

yea, I just took "very small gig" as in a small bar, like a 30x40 + room or whatnot. get a small bar full of beer chugging rockers and, well, you can easily pop one of those powered mixers

Yes, you are right, a 400-800w powered mixer isn't useful for a 4-5 pc rock band in any type of gig really. I use my sr1530's crossed over with a couple of 800w subs for those types of gigs. I use my brother in law's system for anything bigger. I hate using house sound and will avoid it if at all possible.

But, I digress, (I'm bad for that). My point was, that you don't need 1000+ watts for jamming in a small room.

When I was younger, I made the mistake of going out and buying a 2400w system with the hopes of using it for jamming and gigging and it didn't work out so well. We ended up using an old ROSS 90w powered mixer for jamming and it was plenty. I still have my old peavey xr600c mixer (400w mono, usually about 210w into 8ohms)... and it too worked quite well for jamming.

The system he linked us to is 400w at 8ohms bridged mono. I've used phonic equipment before (the 1000w non rack mount powered mixer) with warfdale speakers and it wasn't a slouch but at the same time it wasn't the greatest system in the world.

 

[ryjan]

Update: Well, I got my tax return back and pulled the trigger. Since I couldnt afford a really nice pa up front I decided to go the expandable route. :wink: I got myself a little Yamaha mixer and two of the newer Behringer B212D powered speakers. Those little *******s are LOUD! 345watts rms each. We had practice last night and got a chance to crank them a bit and experiment with miking up the guitars. Sound was great (for my basement rehersal space) and now my vocals can finally be heard above the cymbals. I got the speakers on sale for $260 each which after shopping around for them for 3 months I thought was a smoking deal. Now whenever I get some extra scratch, I'll just buy another one and daisy chain them together.