orderd a quad of G12H-75 Creambacks

[bandit2013]

I love the Roadster though the 2x12 combo (RA100) with the G12H-75 Creambacks so I decided to re-stuff my old Recto 412 cab. I may mix a pair with the original V30's and if that sounds good I will do the same to the other 412 cabinet I am using with my RA100 head. Currently I have a mix of V30 and EVM12L which sounds good, better than all 4 V30 or all EV. I am struggling with the cabinets as they sound either too bright or soft in the bottom end (palm muting). I may end up using all 4 Creambacks in the one cabinet. Not sure yet on direction I will take. One thing is for sure, I was blown away with the Creamback 75's in the combo amp that I want to explore the 412 cab next. I had considered the G12M-65 but I really love the 75s with the Roadster. If I like the V30 mixed with the Creamback I will also mod the new 412 cab and reuse the new V30's from that cab to mod the old one.

 

[afu]

I'd like to hear how this works out.

 

[bandit2013]

I started with my old Recto that I had rebuilt (long story). I did not like the V30 mixed with the G12H75 Creambacks, the cab sounded way too bright for my taste. However, the full complement with the G12H75 Creambacks sounds really good with the Roadster. I must have played for three hours last night after installing the speakers. They do sound a bit brighter in the 412 cab than the two 16ohm speakers in my RA100. The Roadster sounds much better with the creambacks than with the V30's. Now for the other test, since I have not opened my other recto cab, I did a side by side comparison to hear the difference with the RA100 head. I like the V30 with the RA100 in the 412 format more than the creamback 412 format. However, running both cabinets as a full stack is remarkable. V30s sound great with the G12H75 creamback when they are not sharing the same cabinet. The bottom end should be getting stronger the more I play though them as the pair did in the RA100 Combo. I took a break as I am retubing my RA100 head to match what I put in the combo and will get to the full stack with the Roadster soon. I am assuming that when you combine speakers in the same enclosed space that have slightly different characteristics, the air pressures at the different frequencies where the speakers differ seems to defeat the complimentary tones. When the two do not occupy the same cavity, they sound great. I was hoping to mix the V30 with creamback in both cabs but I am glad that I did not as I can choose which cab to use if it meets the tone I am after. Palm muting with the Roadster is improved considerably. It was better with the EV and V30 than all V30, now it is far better than the EV/V30 mix. Note that I had to change the preamp section for better tone as the All Mesa tubes seemed a bit too dark, now I have a Svetlana 12AX7 (similar to the Tung Sol) in V1 and a JJ ECC803 in V2 (long plate version of the Mesa tube).

 

[YellowJacket]

This is very interesting. I have a homemade oversized 2 x 12 that is build off of a Mills Mach 212B design. The cab is very tight and clear sounding but it tends to be a bit dark. I originally had a c90 and a chinese v30 in it but I since have traded my c90 for a Mesa v30. I put the Mesa v30 and a Warehouse ET90 in the cab but the ET90 tends to break up in the lows. (Speaker distortion is cool except for metal) I ended up going with both v30s in the cab. The variation in the top end between the speakers gives adequate highs but my complaint is that the tone is a bit too vanilla and it lacks the complexity, crunch, and bite of the v30 / ET90 combination.

Hearing the description of a G12H - 75 being tight in the lows and ideal for leads means it may be a better option vs and ET90. The ET90 is based off of an ET65 so it's likely very similar to a G12H - 75 in terms of tone.

At the end of the day, I want a 7 string guitar so I'll likely have to save my money ^_^

 

[knotts]

I am also intrigued by this for a 2x12. Currently I have a V30 / GH12-30 mix in a 4x12. Overall I'm happy with the sound and happy with the increased bottom end that the GH12-30 brings compared to an all V30 configuration. Looking to downsize to a 2x12 and I was thinking that this would make a good speaker choice in terms of tone and power handling. I'm glad that there is a positive endorsement.

 

[bandit2013]

Odd that I prefer the tone and character of the G12H75-16 (2x12) in a ported or open back vs the quad of 8 ohms in the 4x12 format. The Roadster really rips on the 2x12 set up (RA100 Combo used as a 2x12 for the Roadster). I still like the full V30 4x12 so I am glad I left the new cab alone. Even the RA100 is a bit different with the creamback loaded 412 vs the 2x12 set up.

The Creambacks sound great but the Roadster sometimes feels too dark at times. It may be time for new tubes anyway.

 

[knotts]

Odd that I prefer the tone and character of the G12H75-16 (2x12) in a ported or open back vs the quad of 8 ohms in the 4x12 format. The Roadster really rips on the 2x12 set up (RA100 Combo used as a 2x12 for the Roadster). I still like the full V30 4x12 so I am glad I left the new cab alone. Even the RA100 is a bit different with the creamback loaded 412 vs the 2x12 set up.

The Creambacks sound great but the Roadster sometimes feels too dark at times. It may be time for new tubes anyway.

Interesting point on the open back / ported aspect. I bet that helps the articulation of the roadster a bit and keeping the bottom end from getting flubby. I rehearse through the 4x12 and bring my Lonestar 2x12 combo cab for most gigs just because it's easier to transport and better for most venues. I actually like it through a 2x12 but I wonder if the open back of the combo cab is what makes it work well.

 

[bandit2013]

The RA100 combo has a large panel that covers the entire back side of the amp. That being said, there is a 3 inch wide port just under the tube cage which extends close to 15 inches in width. More than likely this is the reason why the V30 in the RA100 Combo sounded nothing like those in the 412 cab. Also the V30's got muddy in the combo (reason for the change to creambacks).

I never really had a muddy issue with the Roadster with EVM12L, V30 or the Creambacks. However to achieve a better tone to compliment the creamback speakers I replaced V1 and V2 with Mullard RI 12AX7 (long plates). I tried to revert back to the Mesa tubes in V1 and V2 but quickly returned to the Mullards. I still get the distinct difference in tone between CH3 and CH4, also raw and vintage voice of CH4 sounds much better with the different tubes. The other tube I did change from the Mesa was the PI tube (triode matched/balanced Sovtek LPS). I do like the G12H75 creamback in the 412 as well as the V30 in the other. Running both cabs is awesome. Tried to mix the V30 and Creambacks in the same cabinet and I was not impressed.

 

[bandit2013]

I resurrected this threat to announce I removed the Creambacks. They sound really good but the V30 seems to be a better fit with the Roadster when used with the JP-2C using another cab with V30. I had removed the V30 for many other reasons as original speakers and my old recto cab just did not mix well. Many things have changed with the cab since then, added support on the upper baffle to prevent a central vibration that was occurring between the two speakers. Also had to secure the baffle to the side supports with screws as it seems there were a few loose joints here and there. I believe it spent way too much time in storage over the years without use. All seems well now and the refurbished cab sounds very close to the new one. Slight difference in tone but much better than it was previously.

I ran a mix of the Creamback and V30 but noted that the V30 was dominant. Not just in the mids either as it was also louder too. Connected them in series and in parallel with one V30 and on G12H75, each pair it if were, also tried wiring the G12H75 and V30 on their own circuits in parallel or series. Did not make any difference. I prefer the speakers to be the same within the cabinet. Running separate cabs with different speakers sounds better than mixing them together in the same cabinet.

 

[peterdenny]

I find this a bit interesting. I have a Road King 2 combo I put 2 of these 75w creambacks in and its definately not as clear as the C90 because the speaker tends to break up sooner but certainly doesnt sound bad at all. I just got a 4x12 and was hoping to put them there and then discovered Mesa does the recto cabs with 8ohm ones. Dammit. I wish they did a stereo 8ohm single 16 like most others then I could just add some. I was toying with thoughts on mixing in two and whether i would put one each side or split them up so I could just run V30 or CB75 per side. I dont have the room for another 4x12 but what I do have is another mesa 2x12 that has 16ohm speakers. Im debating getting a road king 2 head and selling the combo and then loading that up and stacking the 2x12 on the 4x12. The 4ohm is a bummer because I cant run the cabs together if I run the 4x12 stereo. I also have a marshall jvm hence why the 4x12 thing is a bummer. I need to replug things and pay attention to what is plugged in where at what time. I was watching ebay for speakers and there were some there that were a good deal but 65w. I think I want to stick with the 75W.

 

[bandit2013]

I find this a bit interesting. I have a Road King 2 combo I put 2 of these 75w creambacks in and its definately not as clear as the C90 because the speaker tends to break up sooner but certainly doesnt sound bad at all. I just got a 4x12 and was hoping to put them there and then discovered Mesa does the recto cabs with 8ohm ones. Dammit. I wish they did a stereo 8ohm single 16 like most others then I could just add some. I was toying with thoughts on mixing in two and whether i would put one each side or split them up so I could just run V30 or CB75 per side. I dont have the room for another 4x12 but what I do have is another mesa 2x12 that has 16ohm speakers. Im debating getting a road king 2 head and selling the combo and then loading that up and stacking the 2x12 on the 4x12. The 4ohm is a bummer because I cant run the cabs together if I run the 4x12 stereo. I also have a marshall jvm hence why the 4x12 thing is a bummer. I need to replug things and pay attention to what is plugged in where at what time. I was watching ebay for speakers and there were some there that were a good deal but 65w. I think I want to stick with the 75W.

I would have never known the Roadking combo was a 1/3 open back(probably because I did not look until now). I figured they would have at least one side sealed with a V30 similar to the Roadking cabs. You could try one Creamback with one MC90 and hear how that sounds. The creambacks are a bit warmer in tone than the MC90 or the V30. I found the converse to be the case with my RA100 combo that is partially open, more like a oval shaped port than 1/3 open back. I got it used, had two V30. Those sounded muddy when I used the gain channels, what I found experimenting with the V30 is that is the case with open cabs, loss of definition. The Creambacks sounded way better. Even the Roadster head channeled though them sounded great when using the higher gain channels. Did not loose clarity either. which is why I bought the quad for the 412. I had thought the 16 ohm versions sounded different than the 8 ohm versions but not by much, compared to open or sealed, there is a difference. Perhaps the Creambacks have more of a vintage tone than the V30 and definitely will be different than the MC90. Comparable to the MC90 but different would be the Celestion Cream 90W Alinco. Clean channel clarity is similar to the Creamback ceramic G12H75 but the gain characteristic is amazing and gets close to a closed back cab v30 mixed with an EV open cab. Similar to EV but with midrange hump like V30. Too bad the Cream 90W Alnico is so expensive. If you got another 2x12 you could run that with the combo speakers and use the other with the JVM. Sometimes the speaker tone quest can be consuming. I do like the Creamback in a closed cab of the 412, but I was chasing the rabbit to match that of the other cab so I can pair the JP-2C and the Roadster. As for the Celestion Cream 90W Alnico, I do have a full recording of this speaker in my Mark V combo. I blended the mic and the attenuator signal together for a closer approximation to the actual sound. It worked well enough. Probably the first project I created with the Mark V. There are two guitar tracks the primary using Mark V CH3 extreme mode for more headroom. The other was the Mark V CH3 MkIV voice pushed hard. Not sure how I was paying the bass but it added some effect to the fill in guitar or the drums, as it sort of sounds like a third guitar peeking in and out. It is a bit more forward in response than the Creamback or the MC90 which surprised me. The reverb pedal I was using did not seem to overpower the dry tone all that much, perhaps a bit more than I expected though. I have looked through my recordings and do not have anything captured of the Roadster thought the 412 with the creambacks in it, oh well.... I am keeping the speakers for now and may go back to them in the future.

https://soundcloud.com/user-353100000/tempted01wav

I also made another recording for test purpose when I got the Cream Alnico speaker, did not really dial in the amp with any favorable settings.

 

[peterdenny]

Good to know. I suspect that the combo will get the c90s back and then get sold because i need the space and replace with a head and if I keep the 2x12 I will load it with the CB75. Best of all worlds. Im still thinking about adding a creamback pair to the 4x12. I just wish I was richer.

 

[bandit2013]

I can imagine how heavy the RoadKing Combo is. I was considering getting a Roadster combo at one point. The Roadster head is enough for me. At the moment, the JP-2C is taking over my time. I am sort of in the comparative phase, what amp would it sound best with, and in some respect, what amp would I be willing to part with....that would be easy if Celestion did not make the 90W Alnico speaker, the Mark V combo would have been already gone.

I may eventually go back to the CB75 as I have not given up on them. The unused EVM12L speakers on the other hand will remain in the boxes they came in. If I were to get another Stiletto Head, perhaps the EV would have use. The Stiletto sounded so close to the Roadster but needed something different. When I had it for a week, both Recto cabs had the V30 speaker in them. I returned it to the nearest GC since I bought it online used, and traded in for a mint RA100 combo which was the starting point for the CB75.... As I stated before, I was not too happy with the mix of V30/CB75 in the same enclosure. The V30 was dominant almost as if the CB75 was producing no sound but they were. In separate cabs, they mixed well together.

 

[peterdenny]

The Road King combo is ridiculously heavy. Its a cool amp but lifting it up on a 4x12 was not easy. It weights around 120lbs I think. Its not really practical for gigging either unless you got help. Fortunately its got two heavy duty handles on the side because I dont think you can lift with the leather strap very well.

 

[Dreamtheaterrules]

Just checking in to let you know I'm following all your comments on speaker swapping with great interest.

 

[bandit2013]

The Road King combo is ridiculously heavy. Its a cool amp but lifting it up on a 4x12 was not easy. It weights around 120lbs I think. Its not really practical for gigging either unless you got help. Fortunately its got two heavy duty handles on the side because I dont think you can lift with the leather strap very well.

The RA100 Combo weighs about the same and has swing out handles on the side. If I were to attempt to lift it myself and place it on top of the 412, my back would be done in. I can lift it as I picked it up myself to get it into my vehicle when I bought it. I had to find out for myself how manageable it is since I will have no help to get it into the house. Any time you have help, take advantage of it. I also had to move my 412 cabs in as well. Every entry point into the home has steps so that proves to be a challenge. Also when I bought the RA100 combo it was missing the casters :evil: I ordered a set from Mesa and now happy. Considering my three 412 cabs, the two Mesa cabs are in the 100lb zone, the Egnator cab can almost be picked up with one arm, probably would not last very long but if I were to gig, I would use that as I would rather keep my Mesa cabs in good to excellent condition.

 

[bandit2013]

Just checking in to let you know I'm following all your comments on speaker swapping with great interest.

That is cool. We all have our tone quests. What we want as the end result may be different or the same. Not sure what I am after. I want great sound that does not get on my nerves after 10 minutes of playing. V30 does impose some bit of mental torture (you just can't hear it though). If I hear flub it is over if it cannot be corrected for with the tone controls on the amp. Roadster is naturally dark so hard to dial out the base with that is it voice. CB75 there was not reason to remove them. Love those speakers. For some reason, I could not obtain the characteristic that I hear in recordings or videos of the Roadster. How do I get there, why does my amp sound so different? New Recto cab was the answer.... so why the old one sound terrible? lack of use for the past 12 years before the Mark V came along may be one. Some speaker cabs may be different if same make and construction are evident, especially when one is 15 years older than the other.

A point to make clear, if I had sold my old recto cab and bought a new one when I first got the Roadster head, I probably would not be down this rabbit hole in the first place. Also would not have a third 412 as I bought that under budget to use with my RA100 head (removed the Egnator private label Celestion speakers 16 ohms in favor of the Original V30 I pulled from my old Recto that was stuffed with EV). Perhaps it was the Mark V that tainted my appreciation of the V30, but not completely true either, my Mark III or Mark IV sounded terrible with that cab as well. It sounded good for the first few notes but once you stated adjusting your tone and gain character with the amp, it would either flub out, or resonate like a car horn on certain notes. To me that was just unusable. The EV speaker cured that and I was happy. Never had a chance to try the Mark III with the cab loaded with EV as I sold it before I got the Mark V. The Egnator cab was eating at me as it was not a very attractive cabinet. Also was dwarfed by the OS recto. On came Roadster, off went the Mark V to a different format (combo) and behold incredible sound of the moster the Roadster is. Tried it though Egnator cab with V30, not bad as palm muting sounded better, EV had drone to it, mushy may be better term or loose and lack of tightness, slow response perhaps. New cab on the way OS recto 412 in RA100 style. Best overall cab I have used yet. EV to V30, round xxx? lost track how many times I have swapped speaker with the old recto. CB75 offered a better tone, and seemed to cure the V30 woes I had with the old recto. I have seemed to acquired a closet full of speakers and their respective boxes. The Roadster through the CB75, the RA100 though V30 and the Mark V parked for future funds or modifications. That worked out great. Actually the Mark V sounded really good though both cabs. Why change? I had to get another amp.....JP-2C. Holy crap is that amp amazing. The New Recto cab is the ticket..... CB75 sounded great too, actually sounded better in a comparative recording. But live, with the cabs side by side, V30 cab just won me over. Then a side by side comparison of the Roadster against JP-2C V30 did it again ( compared the Roadster and JP-2C though the same cabinet, V30 or CB75). I have an idea, since I reinstalled the OEM thin magnet Celestions back into the Egnator cab, why not try the CB75 in there? I did swap the V30 into it but found them way too bright for that smaller cabinet. CB75 are a bit darker or warmer than the V30 but still as bright, more flat frequency curve, if there is a hump in the mids, it is shifted to a lower frequency. If I am up to it this evening, I will make the swap but may wait until the weekend. That may be fun as I have not tried the CB75 in a traditional sized cabinet.

 

[afu]

I use a Peavey XXX cab. It can flub, but I put the soft egg crate material between it and the floor to eliminate that. I haven't felt completely compelled to replace it and it's sturdy. If you end up needing to gig, a used one is $200, it's oversized, and the speakers aren't terrible (smoother V30 clones).

Plus, the input has a stereo option if you want to run two heads and replacing speakers or wiring is simple. I'm still planning on a Mesa 2x12, but this works fine and provides options, particularly for a mini stereo setup.

 

[bandit2013]

That is good to know.

I have done all I could to reduce flub. Now everything is great, no more flub, but the old Recto cab did gain some additional weight. New 412, never could get that one to flub out at all. To me that one is ideal. Perhaps some day I will replace my old recto cab, but for now it is sounding really good.

My Egnator cab would serve well for gigs. It was $200 new, has similar caster plates with removable casters like the Mesa Cab, light weight but 16 ohms. It is okay but lacks the fullness of the OS Recto cab. Since I have the CB75 why not give them a shot in there as it is a copy of the Marshal cab but constructed of all plywood, and all metal hardware except for the wheel material. I have not seen any particle board or FDM material inside the cabinet. I was loaded with white insulation material which deadened the sound, that was the first thing to go... Vinyl covering may be cheesy but who cares...

 

[bandit2013]

I was looking at my speakers I have bought thought the past 4 years that I have tried with this Mesa amp and that Mesa amp. The bulk of my tone quest was centered around two amplifiers: Mark IVb combo, and the Mark V head, then the expense rolled in more when I converted the Mark V head to a combo.

The Mark IVb combo suffered a similar fate as did the OEM speakers in my OS recto cab. My point of reference was the Mark IV. Both combo and cab had the flub issue. I was so tempted to remove the MC90 and install the EVM12L black shadow into it but was unsure if it would fit. I found an old picture of my gear dating August 2011 shortly after moving in to the new home. The Mark III on the left in this over crowded room reveals an EV emblem on the speaker dust cap. That was an EVM-classic. The EVM12L black shadow was in the oak 1x12 cab just below it. When I sold that amp, I returned the black shadow speaker to the Mark III comb and both amp and extension cab were sold to a friend for a reasonable price. Other than 23years of hard use, no mods and countless tube changes, the amp was in mint condition. At this time I was done with playing guitar and had difficulty due to injury and thought I would never play again. That changed in 2012 after I sold the amp. The Mark IVb combo on the right sitting on the Virgin OS Recto 412 both of which were bought in 2000. After selling the Mark III, I missed the amp and character of the EVM12L black shadow I decided to get a recent EVM12L in black label form which is closest I could find to the Black Shadow version. The Classic was different and had softer low and response than the black shadow.

After installing the EVM12L speaker into the Mark IVb combo, I was overjoyed with the performance at moderate to high volume settings (above 3 on the master volume control) but at the same time I was not pleased with the lower volume level character of the EV and thought the MC90 was better. Needless to say the MC90 did not last very long after that due to voice coil damage. Could be from lack of use over a 8-10 year period resulting from injury to tendons in my left arm. After the MC90 was toasted, the EV went back in, but I front mounted it. Had to modify the grill frame to make it fit. Then I found a FANE resource in the US and bought a Fane Studio 12L which is quite similar to the EV but voiced very similar to the V30.

I actually liked the Fane speaker, I figured if I could get more I could try them in the 412, actually I was thinking of the Medusa 150C but my resource drop the product shortly after I bought the Studio 12L so that became more of a fantasy than a reality. The Studio 12L had to be driven hard to be effective, it was shy when running at bedroom level. Also it was the first speaker I stuffed into the Mark IVb combo that I could run at full volume and it did not break up. EV could not do that.... Cone shape was different and it really projected out, the further away from the speaker the fuller the sound. It did not beam the mid to high frequency in a narrow cone like the V30, it was spread out well and balanced. When I sold my Mark IVb combo, it had the Fane speaker in it. That was an improvement over the MC90 or even EV. I did try it with the Mark V but was not impressed with it as the amp was still pushing ice or broken glass tones. Roadster did not favor the Fane nor did the RA100. Seemed like a good match for the Mark IV combo. Note that the basket was very tall relative to the other speakers. It could not be rear mounted due to the driver touching the power tubes. Also there was no room to change preamp tubes. Since I modified the grill for front mounting, that is how the Fane speaker would fit and allow for preamp tube change without having to remove the chassis. Similar to the EV basket when rear mounted but plenty of room for power tube access.