NOS ECC83/12AX7

[andrewd]

Hi there, fellow Boogie manias 8)

I'm currently using the Tung-Sol reissue 12AX7 in my IIC+ V1 position, and I love the harmonic response it gives. But since I'm only human, curiousity comes once in a while.

Now, I'm really interested in experimenting with different NOS ECC83 and would like some opinions from more experienced dudes here. Some of the NOS tubes that my local shops carry are: Mullard, Telefunken (diamond mark), Tesla (E83CC), Siemens, JAN-Raytheon. Any inputs on these tubes are greatly appreciated

The most hyped one is of course the Mullards, but I heard that they have a mid-range honk which is suitable in Marshall amps. Since the IIC+ has enough mids already, do you think using the Mullard in V1 is a waste of cash?

Thanks in advance, guys 8)

 

[hans-jürgen]

You should perhaps add the RCA/Fender tubes to the list, because I have three of them in my Mark IIB coming from my old Fender Bassman, and they sound fine as well, rather on the smooth and creamy side.

 

[Shep]

with preamp tube for my Mkiv ...what are some tubes that aren't mesa that are better and will give better repsonse,gain and harmonics...JJ's?

i have some vintage 70's RCA output tube's..i think there called 7027's..yeahdoes any know of these?

Thanks tom

 

[hans-jürgen]

These should be 7025, the ones I have in my Mark IIB at the moment which I like very much. I think they are rather expensive if you buy them NOS though.

 

[Shep]

i only have two...rca 7027A's if i wanted to try them with two 6L6's which sockets would i put them into?..

 

[Russ]

The European tubes will render a more classic gain sound. The American tubes will get you more of a Fender type sound. I would say GE or RCA if you want the American sound. You can use any 12ax7/ecc83/ecc803/e83cc/12ax7a/ecc803s/cv4004/M8137/7025. They all will have a slightly different flavor but they are all a dual triode 9 pin with comparable gain and transconductance. There were many NOS manufacturers. Of them the biggies made tubes for others and got rebranded often. Sometimes you can find wolves in sheeps clothing if you know what you are looking for. Often the rebranded are selected versions too. So don't let that put you off. The tube collectors want a pretty tube that is branded by the original manufacturer. You will know better and get the same sound for cheaper.

Besides how often are you looking in your amp at what kind of tube it is. I would much rather spend less money and less time ogling an original manufacturer's paint (which tends to rub off anyway). In fact, to keep the snoopers at bay I like to rub off any markings I can anyway. This will keep your tone your own. I don't think any of you will be allowing strangers to pull your tubes on you so they can examine your plate structure or getter shape. Besides trying to steal your sound they might walk off with them.

Learn your plate structures and getter types and what sounds they make. Get educated. Learn your grid material and pin material characteristics. Learn about your mica spacers and what tube buffers do. If you know about what you are buying it is harder to get ripped off. There are many out there that are waiting to prey upon tube newbs. Also don't be put off by OS not being completely new, the old tubes were rated for life expectancies in the 1000's of hours unlike today's tubes. Besides, they typically sound better.

If you have relatives with older tube based stuff- stereos, microscopes, diagnostic equipment, organs, tv's, etc. , check out what is inside. You might find some treasures. You could replace the OS stuff with a cheaper modern tube being that the item is probably not used often anyway and have a nice vintage tube for cheap. If you learn your organs, you might find one for a song. Some of these old organs had fleets of 12ax7s in them. I have heard of some having around 40 in them. Organ manufacturers used highly selected tubes and rebranded them for their use much like GT and Mesa do today only back then everyone used tubes and it wasn't as big of a business.

The organ manufacturers just had a lot riding on the tubes because one little tube could cause an entire organ to sound horrible. Some manufacturers to watch for are Baldwin, Conn, Hammond, Electrohome, and Wurlitzer. The organ manufacturers were using everything from Mullards, RCA, GE, Amperex, Sylvania, etc. Play your cards right and you can acquire many good tubes for very little money. If you buy the entire organ, sell off the parts to recoup your loss and enjoy those sweet tubes for free. This may sound sacreligious to an organ lover, but we play guitar and want our tone. I would sacrifice an old organ any day of the week if there was a booty of nice vintage 12ax7s at hand. You may also get lucky and receive some 12at7s to play with also. The main amps typically had nice 6l6s or 6bq5s (el-84s). Some even had nice 5u4 rectifiers. I think they were meant for Boogie and Recto owners to salvage. Also as a bonus they have nice Alnico speakers too. They are typically 16 ohm as a pair in parallel for 8 ohms or just a single at 8 ohms- again perfect for us Boogie owners.

Imagine that... $100 for an old organ- enough tubes to stock your guitar amp and vintage speakers to blast. It doesn't get any better. Especially because the amps in them can be sold for what you bought the organ for. The amps are also great PTP starting points. They have great caps and resistors in them also. The transformers are often sought after too. It is a great experience if you have the time and money. $100 would buy you about 1-4 NOS 12ax7s depending upon manufacturer and current market trend or maybe up to 6 OS or so. If you get lucky when you get that organ you might end up with 40 and all the bonus goodies.Just check inside before you buy and remain calm not disclosing your intentions until you have already purchased it. Many organ owners just want to get rid of them not knowing what treasures lurk inside... Have fun my new pirates...

 

[hans-jürgen]

i only have two...rca 7027A's if i wanted to try them with two 6L6's which sockets would i put them into?..

Are you sure about that number? As far as I know, these would be 6L6 type power tubes, here are two pictures of an RCA 7027A:

Here's the data sheet describing their specs:

http://www.jogis-roehrenbude.de/EL34-Story/6L6-Story-Seite1-Dateien/rca/7027A-Daten.htm

They seem to be good, rare and expensive of course...

If you rather mean 7025 preamp tubes, try them in the first stage of your MKIV, I don't know which position that would be though (V1 in my MKIIB).

@Russ: are you really hacking old Hammond B3s and Leslie cabs? :shock: :wink:

 

[Russ]

Not B3's specifically. I get a hold on whatever comes my way. I did an L-103 (spinnet) Hammond (1963). I still have the ID plaque. I actually just sold the preamps and reverb/power amp last week. I have a nice set of 12" alnicos from that one and nice tubes. I had dismantled it a couple of years ago. I did a Baldwin (early 60's I forget the model #). That one had been obviously abused and left in the weather. There was not much to salvage there and the tubes were dead anyway. I did a Wurlitzer (1960) forgot the model(didn't care). I got some nice tubes out of that sucker and a pair of 10" alnicos. I had taken the power amp out but forgot it in the back of my truck after running inside with the tubes and when I went back out to look for the amp a couple days later it was missing (punk neighborhood kids). I also did a Gulbransen (late 60's?). I accidentally destroyed the Leslie in that one trying to get it out. I did pull some nice speakers out of that one. That was a freebie from when i picked up the Hammond. They told me to take it too. I BSd my way into being a new vintage organ fan. I don't know what came over me that day. I will not try dismantling another Leslie. I will just sell it as is. The Gulbransen Leslie was part of the lower superstructure so I was having a hard time getting it out without the organ caving in on me. I thought I had it ready to come out. I gave her a little tug and the organ fell in on itself tearing the leslie (cabinet) apart. I was sitting there holding on to one side of it in one hand and the upper pulley in the other. My jaw hit the floor as I saw the resale fall apart that instant.

I don't mind taking apart an organ if there is enough there to use. Many organs end up in the dump or on the side of the road dumped illegally. I was thinking about going around to places that had old organs to sell them new ones to take advantage of the disposal of the old ones. But the biggest group holding old organs is guess who... the churches. I had to stop myself there because it wasn't completely right. Besides, half of the churches have someone that plays the thing regularly and would never agree to a SS organ. Well, then again... the new modeling technology might be useful afterall. Hmmmm.... Nah, I still can't bring myself to do it. It would be wrong. But I am sure someone will read this and end up trying anyway.

If there was a B3 that was being discarded or to be had cheaply though you bet your butt I would take advantage of the situation. I would definitely part it out to say the least. If the tubes weren't any good it would stll be worth the time to sell off the parts. I would just look at it as funding something else. Many times an old organ is worth more in the parts than it is complete. You can also find some nice volume/expression pedals in them, I almost forgot that part.

Check one out sometime. The old power amps make great starting points for homebrew amps. The trannies are often very nice and being that the organs were so **** heavy the internals were pretty nice too if only needing a little dusting.

 

[hans-jürgen]

Check one out sometime. The old power amps make great starting points for homebrew amps. The trannies are often very nice and being that the organs were so **** heavy the internals were pretty nice too if only needing a little dusting.

Well, my first band collectively bought one incl. an original Leslie in the late '70s for our keyboarder, so I know them quite well, especially their weight. But I could not destroy them for some old parts, I guess (rather repair them), because I think their sound contributed to blues and rock music probably as much as Marshall Plexis or the like (B.B. King, Allman Brothers or Deep Purple to name a few). You know, that ol' sentimental "heritage" stuff...

 

[Shep]

i only have two...rca 7027A's if i wanted to try them with two 6L6's which sockets would i put them into?..

Are you sure about that number? As far as I know, these would be 6L6 type power tubes, here are two pictures of an RCA 7027A:

Here's the data sheet describing their specs:

http://www.jogis-roehrenbude.de/EL34-Story/6L6-Story-Seite1-Dateien/rca/7027A-Daten.htm

They seem to be good, rare and expensive of course...

If you rather mean 7025 preamp tubes, try them in the first stage of your MKIV, I don't know which position that would be though (V1 in my MKIIB).

@Russ: are you really hacking old Hammond B3s and Leslie cabs? :shock: :wink:

yeah thats them...just like a 6L6 but with 9 pin's...i am going to selling them because there new ( havn't been used ) and there about 35 years old..i only have a pair would they fit into my MKIV ?...

 

[hans-jürgen]

yeah thats them...just like a 6L6 but with 9 pin's...i am going to selling them because there new ( havn't been used ) and there about 35 years old..i only have a pair would they fit into my MKIV ?...

The data sheet says they have 8 pins (and 1 guiding pin in the middle of course), and they are 6L6 types, i.e. you can use them in a MKIV.

 

[Russ]

It isn't always so much about just scavenging parts as it can been seen as sharing the wealth too for a little profit. There are many out there than love the parts or need them to keep theirs up an running. May a homebrew enthusiast love the old Organ parts because they were typically high quality long lasting parts. I for one can attest to the tubes being a diamond in the rough. I know that most organs are not left running hours on end and that those tubes that I have gotten have lots of life on them/almost new/test new. Being that most organs sat in one place the tubes are generally not even microphonic. I got some clear top 12au7s that way too. I might sell them via ebay for a nice little bit of cash.I haven't decided what to do with the other odd tubes yet but I figure they are good trade stock nonetheless. An Ampeg player might like a 6C4. An audiophile might like a BH7s. I know many that would absolutely love the 6BQ5 black plates I have.

I know Hammonds and other organs played many shows carted on and off many stages, but just the fact that their guts are so tasty I can't help myself when presented the opportunity to strip one for cheap or free.

 

[Shep]

yeah 8 metal and the middle pin..would it really e worth it to take out two of my 6L6's and replace with these two tubes...i think i might sell them because i have no use for them...and with am just about to get the JJ's high gain kit from euortubes.com.....is there much difference between the el34/6l6 and the 6l6 kit?...Tom

 

[psychodave]

So I have had the Mark III for a few weeks and I wanted to try some different preamp tubes. Regarding Power tubes, it came with 2 JJ E34L's and 2 Mesa 6L6's (Sovtek). I pulled out the JJ's and popped in a pair of Siemans EL-34 . That helped a lot. So I started to tinker around with Preamp tubes...but I got tired of having to pull out a power tube every time I wanted to change a preamp tube, so I pulled the chassis flipped the amp so the preamp tubes were easily accessible...let the fun begin

With regards to preamp tubes, all tubes are 12AX7 / ECC83.

It came with a Chinese in V1, Chinese in V2, Sovtek LPS in V3 and V4 and a JJ in V5/phase inverter. Well the first tube I yanked out was the JJ. I have NEVER likes these tubes...some people say that they are dark etc, I just think they are dull and lifeless, not to mention tubby sounding...and thats how it sounded in the MKIII. So I popped in a Tungsram...which has been my favorite PI tube in Marshalls. Like I thought, it sounded great...it added body and depth right away (I actually did this a few days ago). Tonight I targeted V1,2,3 and 4. I tried just about every brand for V1...Mullard, GE, RCA, Telefunken, RFT, Tungsram, Brimar, Mullard CV4004, National, EI, Sovtek, and Chinese. My least favorite preamp tube is usually RCA, but it sounded the best. The runner-ups are as follows (in no particular order), RFT, Mullard, GE, National (smooth plate like Telefunken). I then went on to the other positions. I tried putting in 4 Tungsrams, 4 RFT's, 4 GE's, 4 RCA's, but it just didn’t sound right. I did some more swaps and I ended up liking new tubes. So here is my final list:

V1- RCA
V2-Chinese 9th gen
V3- Sovtek LPS
V4- Sovtek LPS
V5- Tungsram

The amp sounds a 100% better now. I am still in shock about the RCA sounding the best

 

[Russ]

RCA can be a great tube especially in an American souding amp. It shouldn't really surprise you. In a Marshall there are better choices but in Fender, Mesa, and other American voiced amps they can be really nice to have. I like my 1960 RCAs and the 1963 GEs I have. They are all long plates. My RCAs have the square getters while there are round halos in the GEs.

I too was surprised by 9C tubes. I have a couple GTs and they rock. I am not thrilled with Mesa's SPAX7 though. I would rather get the LPS. Tungsram has a definite character to it but I have found that not much tonal character comes out of a PI. It mainly just sets a certain amount of signal to the output tubes to drive them. I have found actually having the nicer tubes in the tone circuit stages to be the better choice. In a PI position you could put about anything in provided it has a relatively close match in a Mesa. Mesa claims it isn;t necessary but I found a half dead tube to sound like crap in my Mark IV PI. Being that your PI isn't beaten as hard as your other tubes it will last longer and might even be something you just want a tube of quality construciton to fill. I wouldn't waste a Tele or a Mullard in it or even a Tungsram. See if you can find another cheaper tube of equal drive rating and save your Tungsram. It might sound good in V1 anyway.

Personally I would save the good stuff for V1 and V2. Use your C9s or LPS in V3 and V4 (even V5)

 

[psychodave]

RCA can be a great tube especially in an American souding amp. It shouldn't really surprise you. In a Marshall there are better choices but in Fender, Mesa, and other American voiced amps they can be really nice to have. I like my 1960 RCAs and the 1963 GEs I have. They are all long plates. My RCAs have the square getters while there are round halos in the GEs.

I too was surprised by 9C tubes. I have a couple GTs and they rock. I am not thrilled with Mesa's SPAX7 though. I would rather get the LPS. Tungsram has a definite character to it but I have found that not much tonal character comes out of a PI. It mainly just sets a certain amount of signal to the output tubes to drive them. I have found actually having the nicer tubes in the tone circuit stages to be the better choice. In a PI position you could put about anything in provided it has a relatively close match in a Mesa. Mesa claims it isn;t necessary but I found a half dead tube to sound like crap in my Mark IV PI. Being that your PI isn't beaten as hard as your other tubes it will last longer and might even be something you just want a tube of quality construciton to fill. I wouldn't waste a Tele or a Mullard in it or even a Tungsram. See if you can find another cheaper tube of equal drive rating and save your Tungsram. It might sound good in V1 anyway.

Personally I would save the good stuff for V1 and V2. Use your C9s or LPS in V3 and V4 (even V5)

Thanks for the tips. I have too many NOS tubes just sitting around not to use them.

 

[Russ]

Have fun, you'll find what you like I am sure. Every tube has a little different character.