New speaker to revoice my Mark IV combo

[babel2]

Hi all, this is my first post here.
I have owned a Mark ivb short bodied combo with a Celestion black shadow for many years now and have been constantly tweaking in search of the tone I'm after.
My last quest ended with me putting EL-34s in there and playing with the pre amp tubes a lot. Am MUCH happier with EL-34s - it warmed up the distortion channels beautifully but still want to modify my tone.
Trying to smooth out the top end bite and focus/fatten the bass a lot more.
I have a red knob twin as well and it makes me sad that I cant get tones with the mark that can rival it.

I was going to go for 6v6s and or 5881s and then decided a new speaker is what I want. I have trawled this forum and a few others in research and came up with the Eminence Swamp Thang. Was about to order it when I thought i'd check the Jensen offerings and came upon the C12K.

Any tips from experience between these 2 models with a mark amplifier?
Looking for smooth, fat cleans and sweet singing distortion - blues, jazz, funk, fusion and a good dose of classic rock.
I want a nice silky high end with no harsh spikes if I can get it from this amp.
I don't like the 'hardness' that 6l6s give the amp and anything that softens the amp up and makes it a little 'easier' to play will be appreciated, but i'll settle for some punchy smooth bass and a sweeter top end.

Thanks

 

[zebpedersen]

To suggest the obvious - my IV is totally stock, 4x6L6 & EVM12L, and it runs the full gamut you mentioned there. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the later, Celestion loaded version, especially for loud cleans...a decent worn-in EV would be much better suited I think.

At the moment I run T/B/M at 7/4/4 for all channels and then just use the gain & presence to taste, to my ears that gets you closest to achieving that range you described whilst avoiding the 'Mark-minutae' which seems to afflict almost all Boogie owners at one time or another

 

[Boogiebabies]

At the moment I run T/B/M at 7/4/4 for all channels and then just use the gain & presence to taste, to my ears that gets you closest to achieving that range you described whilst avoiding the 'Mark-minutae' which seems to afflict almost all Boogie owners at one time or another

You mean chasing the Petaluma Dragon ? Quarter turn here, put this one at 2, an eighth of a turn here and see how it sounds at 7:45 PM
on the 12th.

 

[babel2]

I have thought about the EV but when I bought the mark iv I tried one with the EV in it and really didn't like it at all. In retrospect it was probably totally un-broken in but it has made me very wary of trying one.
I see a lot of people rate the Eminence Delta pro12a as a EV sound-alike and it is a bit cheaper than the Swamp thang.
I guess I am so keen to try something different to the Celestion and I have heard many people say that the Celestion is very flat. In other posts people say the EV is super flat ... so I worry that I'll be changing to something too similar.
I notice the Swamp Thang's freequency response has a huge spike at 2k which worries me a little though it seems to have a rep for not sounding spikey. The Delta pro12a is certainly much flatter but I worry that it won't have any character and the amp will dound more like a DI (which I really Don't want!!)
Trying to find a diagram of the Black Shadow I have so I can compare but there seem to be none around

 

[dodger916]

Trying to find a diagram of the Black Shadow I have so I can compare but there seem to be none around

Which Black Shadow? Here's the spec sheet on the EVM 12-L: http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Speakers/EDS/EVM-12L Series II EDS.pdf

 

[babel2]

Sorry was meaning my Celestion Black shadow so I had some idea of what I already have.
Been trawling the forums for the last few hours and think I'll probably go with the Eminence Delta pro12
Seems like its worth a try. bit pricier than I thought but seems to get good raps.
bit worried it might be a little too dark in the long run and might not have enough colour but probably worth the gamble. Also going to be a lot heavier... still should be lighter than the twin though.

 

[zebpedersen]

At the moment I run T/B/M at 7/4/4 for all channels and then just use the gain & presence to taste, to my ears that gets you closest to achieving that range you described whilst avoiding the 'Mark-minutae' which seems to afflict almost all Boogie owners at one time or another

You mean chasing the Petaluma Dragon ? Quarter turn here, put this one at 2, an eighth of a turn here and see how it sounds at 7:45 PM
on the 12th.

Time Out of Mind indeed...

 

[Platypus]

The speaker you have is a celestion C90. I think people are getting confused because Mesa used the black shadow name on the EV-12L as well.

That said, I would try a worn in EV12L with it. That speaker and any mark series amp will produce wonderful tone. I have never been a fan of the C90, in fact, the first time I tried a Mark IV I thought I was nuts because I hated the tone of it so much. I never would have bought one had I not plugged it in to a thiele with an EV12L in it.

The Celestion Vintage 30 is also a great speaker for the Mark IV. I use a 2x12 recto cab loaded with V30s with my Mark IV typically because I like the coloration it gives the tone. I alternate between an EV-12L loaded thiele and the recto cab, both are great choices. YMMV.

 

[ryjan]

At the moment I run T/B/M at 7/4/4 for all channels and then just use the gain & presence to taste, to my ears that gets you closest to achieving that range you described whilst avoiding the 'Mark-minutae' which seems to afflict almost all Boogie owners at one time or another

You mean chasing the Petaluma Dragon ? Quarter turn here, put this one at 2, an eighth of a turn here and see how it sounds at 7:45 PM
on the 12th.

...color of your shirt, ambient temperature, etc. The farmers almanac says that next year the Mark IV will sound a little brighter so go with a darker speaker. :lol: :lol:
+1 on the Delta. My next cab will come from Avatar and even though I dislike the V30 I may go with an x pattern of helatone30's and 60's.

 

[babel2]

You mean chasing the Petaluma Dragon ? Quarter turn here, put this one at 2, an eighth of a turn here and see how it sounds at 7:45 PM
on the 12th.

...color of your shirt, ambient temperature, etc. The farmers almanac says that next year the Mark IV will sound a little brighter so go with a darker speaker. :lol: :lol:
+1 on the Delta. My next cab will come from Avatar and even though I dislike the V30 I may go with an x pattern of helatone30's and 60's.

LOL :lol: Never heard it called the Petaluma Dragon like that before but it sums it up perfectly! Will call it that from now on
I was born in the year of the metal dragon so maybe thats why I am drawn to the amp so much lol.
Got to say when you get a room with awful acoustics the boogie's 1000 shades of flavour are a godsend. Also after so many years of dialling in temperamental tones I now know how to dial in my red knob twin! I am ashamed to say it but for many years I believed it was only good for clean tones. Now I'm starting to think its more versatile than the Mark IV :shock: :shock:

Going with the Delta Pro12a. After all my trawling it seems to be the go ... except for one post in the many which said it can be a bit fizzy that is one of the big problems I had with the twin. Oh well, guess I'll just have to find out.

 

[JOEY B.]

Going with the Delta Pro12a. After all my trawling it seems to be the go ... except for one post in the many which said it can be a bit fizzy that is one of the big problems I had with the twin. Oh well, guess I'll just have to find out.

Great choice. If a person replaces the C90 with the Delta Pro or an EVM-12L, and does not "back up and punt" in regards to their settings, I could see them describing the sound as fizzy. I am not a big fan of speaker breakup or coloration. My theory is to tweak the sound at the source, the guitar. 8) The EV speakers bring out the best and worst in your guitar, playing, etc... The trick is to learn how to bring out the best and hide the worst. :lol:

 

[GD_NC]

I you really want bass. Add a Thiele ext. cab with and EVM inside. You will be amazed.

 

[reilly]

I have a The Delta pro12a in my wide body thiele cab that i built and it sounds pretty killer, I have got compliments on the tone and sound of the speaker from other players. I dont think its fizzy sounding at all. I do find that i run my 6600 slider a little lower than I do with my recto 2x12 with V30's. I have not played a real EV speaker to compare it too and did not want to drop $200 on a speaker i may not like, thats why i went with the Delta.

 

[babel2]

... and did not want to drop $200 on a speaker i may not like, thats why i went with the Delta.

The Delta pro costs more than $200 in Australia ... Haven't bothered cheching the price of the EV but im sure its ridiculous down here ... oh well

 

[reilly]

WOW! thats nuts, in the USA it costs $109

 

[babel2]

So to follow up, I bought the Delta Pro 12a and put it in the boogie... had to drill a few new holes and it sits permanently pushing against the reverb tank but...
Wow!! still in the honeymoon phase and haven't gigged with it yet but it sounds fantastic!! Nothing new really - same sound and character as before but all the nasties I've been trying to dial out for 6+ years are pretty well gone. I even like the sound of 6L6s in it!! (Simul class with EL34s at present) will have to try all 4 6l6s now.
A Boogie the way boogies are supposed to sound! using a les paul - cant say it loves my strat yet but time will tell. Long way to go before it is broken in.
Its quite a bit softer/less efficient than the celestion but thats a good thing really. I'm sure it'll be more than loud enough on stage still.

The only real hassle is the speaker grille won't fit over the speaker frame as its a PA speaker and sticks out further than a guitar speaker would. don't really want to cut into the original frame but I guess I have no choice really unless I build a new frame and put new material on it... might go blonde this time if I do ...

PS re speakered my red knob twin at the same time with a cannabis rex and GB128. jury's still out on those but the Delta pro seems to kick both of them!! twin also sounds amazing through the Delta.. ok through the others but not quite what I wanted. None are broken in yet though so I shall see...

I cant believe my amp has been crippled for six years my that Celestion C90!!
Another bonus is the Delta pro doesn't seem quite as directional with the tone as the C90 either

 

[bp-plickner]

Cool beans that you found a speaker that works for you in a small combo cabinet.

I am just getting into my Mark II combo. I found that by using a 2x12 cabinet, in this case an Avatar loaded with a weber 50 watt silver bell and a blue, the bass response is kick *** compared to just the single 12 jbl in the combo cabinet.
Plugged into a single 12 EV SRO in an open back cabinet is way cool with a great balance between bass and high end.
I am thinking that the nature of a small cabinet is going to really color the sound of what ever speaker is in there.

Have you tried out the 2x12 in your twin?

Peace

 

[babel2]

Hi bp,
Yes I have tried the 2x 12s in the twin with the boogie both before and after I changed them.
I definitely love the 2x12 sound and agree with you. It was always my intention to build an extra 1x12 cab to go with the boogie and will do so down the road for sure! Judging by some of the earlier responses I should go with a Thiele design too.
Still I can't emphasise how much difference the Delta pro has made! - Its gone from a finicky amp thats got lots of options but nothing to really love (likable) to something that inspires me to play!!
Also recording it works a treat now - classic sounds (not that it wasn't always a great recording amp).. the only thing is it sounds so good recorded I think many will think its a line6 modeller lol!
The 2x12 will be the icing on the cake. My only problem is the Delta pro sounds soo much better than the Cannabis rex and the GB128 right now I think I will want to buy 3 more of them ... in the distant future lol.
So glad that after 6 years I finally love the amp. I paid so much for it I kept trying to make it work, but now... Its amazing the difference playing with a tone you love rather than something you know is good but not really you. Not to mention that feeling when you are playing and feel stupid that you don't have a great tone when you have spent so much money on the amp ...
Ahh so many years of frustration to shed - sorry about all the raving

 

[babel2]

I have one more question - was going to post a new thread but..

I've always had a problem with the FX loop and some pedals - when you have some pedals on (like MXR Phase 100) and hit the FX loop you get an awful, loud, short high pitched squeak.
Other pedals like fulltone, Catalinbread etc don't cause it.
Anyone got ideas on what that might be?

Thanks in advance