New guitar quality issues

[Red Barchetta]

I agree with you to a certain extent, social...but I have noticed this quality control problem more and more as years go by...I have been buying new and used gear since about 1977...so that's a bit of time to see when the pattern develops. I know there are no absolutes, but I still think the quality issues are disgusting considering the prices charged. In this age of computer aided manufacturing, it seems that even the mass produced stuff shouldn't have bulls**t issues.

I guess I'm ranting so much because I'm frustrated. I KNOW they can do better, and it pisses me off to think that they WON'T.

RB

 

[socialparasite]

I agree. Honestly i think anything you pitch your hard earn dough at should be the quality that you pay for. It does seem like with the computer tech age we live in there should be less issues in quality on a lot of products. I do not know how true it is but at the gibson web site someone is boasting that the fretboards on the 2005 standards look better then the ones 5 and 10 years ago. He also said that the inlays have changed a little in color dont know the whole truth until i see for myself http://www.gibson.com/relations/forum/index.asp?sub=show&action=posts&fid=3&tid=57389

 

[Rushboy]

Read the chat Bring me back to 1980 when I was at Sam ash trying no less than 4-5 high prices (1500+) dollar gibson less pauls.

there it was a Yamaha SG2000. The solid body version of what is today the SA2200.

Look, feel, quality, sound, price, the Yamaha blew away in every way the Les Pauls. My SA2200 is on order in due in a day or so. that is because I tried at a local shop several 3000 dollar gibsons and had the same experince as over 20 years ago. bad set up, paint imperfections, bindings that looked like ther were assembled by someone drunk. Not sure what you Gibson die hards are seeing that I am not but my last Rush Jam session( 10 minutes ago) was with my 25 year old Yamaha SG2000. The neck is perfect and the sustain and overall feel of the guitar is by far better than any gibson I personally have ever payed. Ever have that E string pop off the neck on you at the top end and think its you. No, its the guitar.

As soon as I get my SA2200 i am going to spend a few days and update this. ITs like Audi and BMW. Some people drink the Koolade and even though the car is falling apart at 60 K they still think its the best thing on the road while the mustang boys are getting laughed at but still going back and forth to work with 160000 miles on it with same engine and transmission and they hgave yet to change a light bulb. In this case the SA2200 is the same but is the ornate sophisticated and pretty ax that Gibson only wishes it could be.

Red, don't listen to this nouise, you bought one of th best ax's on the market even with the issues you mention, I am praying mine is not in need of TLC but after playing several 3K + priced gibsons last week at a shop i ran home to order this thing on line and after all was said and done had the extra 800 to order the SG double neck which again I know is going to play beter than the gibson at less than 1/2 the price because very sad to say the Korean is going to be better quality. We in america are fat and spoiled. the people who make this stuff over sees thank god they have a job. The shlubs in this continent want 5 weeks vacation, 4 coffee breaks and take no pride in what they do because they are owed something. I hate to say this because i am a buy american all the way but if the quality is not there then F it. I don't work like a dog to pay 3 times what i should just because its comes from USA> This is why we have a trade deficit. We are back to 1980 all over again and its painful.

As mush as it hurts i have to go with Yamaha every time and i do it with glee.

Good job Red B.

"AND THE MEEK SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH" :twisted:

 

[Red Barchetta]

Wow...whatta mouthfull, Rushboy! By the way, nice to see a fellow Rush fan here on the board...I haven't missed a show in about 24 years.

You will enjoy the SA2200 very much...it is a totally different animal than your SG2000, but boy, the thing can rock....and jazz...and pop....and country...you get the pic....

I look forward to reading your report once you take delivery of it. I personally will be playing mine on stage tomorrow night at one of our gigs...it has already proven itself a great axe.

RB

 

[Rushboy]

Red your not going to like this.

I opened up my factory sealed box only to discover that I was right about the pictures on teh net being clearly Amber Burst not Violin. SO you think your getting this red fade and going to see the flamed maple all the way to the edge of the guitar but only the middle is visible and even then kind of week and not pronouced taking that tiger look out of the intrsument completely. SO about 5 minutes to readjust the thinking and fall in love woth VIolin becuase" we have to".

One of the first things I do when I buy a guitar is to take it outside int eh sun. Sunlight does not lie.

So not one, not two, but three cracked/fractured inlays. One with a small hairline split in the Ebony. Never neeed to even plug it in. I spent the rest of my Saturday with a friggin heart murmer over this. Sunday morning I try to come up with an excuse to keep it. I llok down the neck again and there it is. ALl the upper frets lifting a bit. I did see it Saturday but was more freeked over the inlays because as minor as this is eventually moisture is going to get in there and the inlays will fall out. So I play it without pluging it in and the fret buzz on the bass strings is problem tow. I read alot of xomplaints about the toggle switch. Not only does it feel cheap and not going to take it the metal that the thing is screwed in with is that pot metal that is light and cracks very east. Of course I am guessign here but you can just feel its crap.
Lastly the SG2000 in 1980 had a solid brass bridge. I replaced it with an expensive new gold fron yamaha and the sustain was less as well as not lettign the strings seat nice and comfy.I put the old one back on and had it gold plated at a local metal shop. Its nto as bright but its just plain better.

The SA finish body wise is flawless but so is the finish on my 300 dollar Ibanez artcore. This is not the board for this but guys watch out for Music 123.

What came factory sealed was shot so not their fault ,what was not factory sealed which was supposed to be had the typical few cosmetc issues. The case that this thing came with was destroyed right out fo the box, looking like it was dragged accrosss the street with missing hardware and just busted up. That being said i agree with the previous assessments that the case is a joke. The case I got with my 1908 SG2000 is clearly superiour in every way. THis thing is about as cheap as it gets. Epiphone non delux cases are way better than this. Back to my abocve point as much as I hate Musiciands friend becuase you cant get a perfect guitar from them, at least you can get CS on teh phone 24 hours a day.

Music 123 simply has not picked up the phone with as much as a 1/2 hold time. Talk me out of an Epiphone SHeraton Elite. ITs just not as prety but I have played one. IT is a sustantial AX.

I am a mess today. Even people in my office are asking me if I am OK.

 

[Red Barchetta]

Rushboy,

Geez...I can't believe how bad your axe is...with the exception of the issues I mentioned when I first started this post, it has been an exemplary guitar. I just played a great gig Saturday night, and the guitar was spot on. I have noticed an occasional glitch in connectivity with the selector switch, so I agree...that's gotta go. But other than that, my 2200 is great.

I guess your problems just help prove my point about guitar quality issues. There is no excuse for guitars arriving in the condition you describe. I don't know what to say...this just confirms my disgust with the industry....SOMEBODY HELP US!!!!!


Keep me posted, Rushboy...I hope this works out for you.

RB

 

[lailer75]

i`m sorry but i will NEVER purchase a guitar,amp,car, or toaster oven unseen,untouched! you never know what your getting into. you might save a few bucks ordering it, but if it`s a lemon you must ship it back(IF they allow) wait for a replacement,and then pay extra shipping. hey you might get lucky,and then again you might get screwed! touching and fiddleing is DEFINATLY worth the 5 to 10% extra to buy from a shop! you have a location to go to if you have a problem down the road, you have a face,name,relationship wich this extra cost brings.

 

[Brewski]

You guys are scaring me! I've got a guitar being shipped as I write this!!! Now, I can go take my anxiety medicine until it comes in!!!!

 

[redmax61]

This isn't the case all the time. There are a couple of places that I deal with on a regular basis where I totally trust the sales people to hook me up. Every time I order from them, they personally inspect my order. If there are any problems, they will totally back up the service agreement. I've even called them and asked them to hand pick the best one for me.

All I can say is Know your sales people!

 

[boogee]

Hi Red Barchetta. What is the usual price for the SA2200 in your neck of the woods? The SA2200 is quite pricey here in Australia (RRP AU$3179, approx. US$ 2400).

I have been lusting for an SA2200 for a long time. Is the SA2000 still in production btw? I used to own an SG2000 a long time ago and I have always been impressed with the build quality and overall craftmanship of Yamaha's products. These stories make me a bit nervous about ordering an SA2200. Fortunately one of my friends works in a musicstore and could probably order one for me to try out .

 

[Red Barchetta]

The SA2000 is no longer in production. I have enjoyed my 2200...if you read my original post, you will see that my problems weren't near as bad as some of the other guys here. Particularly if you can order one to try...go for it. Great axe, and even with the problems, it still beat every Gibson ES335 I tried.


RB

 

[Ken j]

These large companys are all answering to a group of investers that are interested in in one thing, "profit".

Some Gibsons I have seen of recent production seem to have issues of fit and finish at the fretboard to neck joint. I don't know if they are doing a crappy job fitting the wood or if they are using wood that has not fully dried. Most that I have played the fret board is not flush with the edge of the neck. It is almost as if the fret board has shrunk. I have seen this on both bound and unbound necks. To me this is unexcusable for a high dollar instrument. I have owned many Gibsons through the years, my first in '71, and hate to see what is happening with them.

Three years ago I completed a home built neck through guitar. This is my main instrument now. Unfortunately many people are unable to do this themselves. If you want high quality, I feel it helps to buy from a family owned company. Rickenbacker, PRS, Carvin, Heritage (four owners-former Gibson Kalamazoo employees) and the many more small custom shops around. I have owned six Ricks through the years and their quality is awesome. We are all here for or love of Mesa products. If you look at Mesa its is a owner (Randall Smith) company AFAIK. Far less people sucking off the profits. These owners do this because they love this busness and their products.

Some of the imports from Ibenez and ESP LTD and others I've seen recently seems to have decent quality. I just have a hard time buying imported products. I choose to support companies that support the community and tax base that I live in.

 

[Guitarzan]

I don't know what is more mass produced, A McDonald's Big Mac or a Gibson Les Paul? The quality standards for both are about the same.

 

[kylek]

In any industry, there is a certain standard to which defects are allowed, because as the company sees it, it is actually cheaper for them to replace certain parts if they are underwarranty than to redesign the entire line. Think of Ford, or more importantly the Airplane industry. In those two indrustries there is an ACCEPTABLE loss of life amount per the total number of safe travelers.

It comes down to the economics that the company faces. For the large makers there is an acceptable amount of quality control issues before they will redesign certain parts.

it just all comes down to cost

 

[Russ]

What I think you guys fail to see is that a guitar like any other product of craftsmanship will never be absolutely the same as the next. Sure there are finish flaws and changes in setup through shipping. This should be expected. I don't think you could pick up any two of any guitar and have it play exactly the same nor look exactly the same. As a craftsman myself, a carpenter and business owner at that, I can honestly say that it is difficult to make things like cookie cutters and then sustain that for any length of time in any production mode. If you take into consideration the amount of units these companies produce the margin for error is rather small. In fact, I understand that Gibson has discontinued the "SECOND" guitars. Instead of shipping out something that doesn't meet their standards it is destroyed. They used to sell those "SECOND" guitars for a little less. Today, without turning the headstock around to see where it once said "SECOND" I bet you couldn't tell it was ever a blemished guitar. You should really realize that a guitar is something that will get played and typically the finish blemishes become the character of the guitar. If you don't like the Les Paul you just picked up to play, try another.

It took me a year and a half to find one I liked back in 94. Believe it or not it was a studio. I played customs, standards, deluxes, classics, the whole lot of them. Every week I was in the store when they would get the new shipments. I saw some beautiful guitars that didn't sound right. I found guitars that sounded ok but didn't feel right. 94 was a strange year being it was Gibsons 100th year anniversary. They even changed their serial numbers for that year. They started with 94 then 3 digits and 3 digits. The Custom Shop lended a hand in the construction of a large number of the production guitars. I believe mine to be one of those only because it was perfect. Fit, finish, feel, it was all there. Tone was like a les paul custom. The thing I don't understand is why if Custom Shop built so many then.... Why did it take so long to find "the les paul" for me? I attribute that to what I said above. You can try to make them all the same but it is near impossible.

Try playing any brand and any model. Inspect them. Listen to them. Every guitar is different. I would take a finish blemish on a player guitar as long as it had tone and was playable. Playable is subjective here as people like their action different. A blues player would like different action than a thrash/speedmetal freak (not calling names.. just making a point). To some action is not really an issue due to playing style. To others it is a breakpoint. Some people are collectors and never even touch the guitar without a glove on.

I have been playing electric since the early 80's and I have never known any two guitars to be consistant. I have never seen any company have all their guitars be perfect. Gibsons are one of my favorites but I would never buy a new one without playing it unless it was going in a glass case. I play all but one of my guitars (a collector's piece) and I would never know if one had a finish blem. They are players to be played. Expect maintenance. Expect to have to get your setup done once in a while if you can't do it yourself. Guitars will always need something eventually. Nothing lasts forever.

There may be truth in the statement above about only the good ones are left as the others have found there way to their demises, but I firmly believe that most of those you see in really nice condition were not played. If owned by a guitarist, it probably didn't sound good or was a collector's piece. If not owned by a guitarist, it is a crap shoot if it ever had any playability or tone. I believe that played guitars sound best as they have been resonated for years and it has weathered the atmosphere and inherent environment a guitar is subjected to while being played (heat, cold, sweat, , you name it). Do you think SRV #1 sounds like crap? Likely not... It probably plays better than any new strat too. By the way, the new EJ strat kills the Blackie in terms of natural tone.

Sure there are some problems with new guitars. Don't buy "that" one, try another...

Oh and do you think the American guitar builders are really making that much profit? Think again. How much do you think a luthier makes? How much do you think a luthier makes in the far east or mexico? Now compare the prices of the guitars. Estimate the amount the materials cost and overhead. Now who is playing profits? Hint.... the import guitar makers.

One last bit... This is for you new guys...

Play that guitar you think you want to buy after the visual assessment.

Play it unplugged.

Does it sound like a guitar still?

Yes? Ok, consider it.

No? Forget about try another one.

Finding a guitar isn't like buying a can of frozen orange juice. It takes a little time. Kind of like learning to play. Be patient. Don't rush it. Guitars are soulful creations and individual.

Sorry for the long post, I'll just stop talking and play...