My Roadster Won't Get Clean Enough (Does This Sound Right?)

[jtroska]

I can't get my Roadster to produce a clean sound at a high volume. It's always a little overdriven.

Here's a short audio sample so you can hear what I mean.
http://www.popcultureaquarium.com/jamestroska/RoadsterClean.wav

For testing purposes, the Mode was set to "Clean"; The Gain was set to 12 noon; The Bass, Mid, and Treble were set to 12 noon; and the Effects Loop was hard-bypassed.

The Channel Master was set to about 1o'clock, where it needs to be to match the high-gain channel (set to 12 noon).

This clean channel is running at 100 watts and the high-gain channel is running at 50 watts.

The sound does clean up if I back the Channel Master down to about 10:30. But I'm wondering if I should be expecting more useable volume.

 

[ibanez4life SZ!]

Sounds about normal to me...1 o'clock on the master with loop bypassed, and gain at noon should be quite a lot of volume...i remember keeping my gain aroun 10:30-11 with master around noon, and switching the neck pickup and everything kept VERY clean...try backing things down a tiny bit?

Also something to keep in mind...what kind of pickup is pushing the front end of the amp?

Eric

 

[jtroska]

Here, a PRS Tremonti bridge pickup is being used. It is on the hot side. But my Gretsch 6120 with TV Jones pickups produces the same slight overdrive.

I can reduce the clipping by lowering the channel master. But once my ear hears it, it annoys me until it's completely gone. Maybe it's just a matter of getting used to tubes--I've been gigging with solid-state for years.

Lowering the preamp gain by a lot doesn't help much because then I just have to raise the channel master higher to compensate and the over-drive is back at about the same db level. I probably would back it down a bit, though. But for testing purposes, I figured 12 noon is close enough and good for demonstrating.

Maybe I just need to get into the habit of actually using my neck pickup too.

 

[KH Guitar Freak]

I was going to say back down on the gain and perhaps treble even, then compensate with the channel master control. but that might not have worked for you. You could also try and increase the output control, then back down on the channel master controls, and see if that helps...

But honestly, that actually sounds pretty **** clean with the Tremonti bridge pickup...

 

[Yetti]

Yeah Flip that Switch to the Neck Pickup, thats going to get you drastically better sounding cleans!
@Ibanez Nice fucking tunes on your pages...good to hear your stuff again.
Even if its all AxFx now

 

[jtroska]

You're right. I played with it now and it seems the channel was made for the neck pup. Feel kind of silly for not experimenting with that more before. But my neck pup sounded muddy through my old amp and so I got of out of the habit of using it.

So long as I know everything is up to spec, I don't mind tweaking until I get what I need.

My closed 2x12 probably isn't helping the cleans, either, because the closed back muffles the highs and makes me want to turn up louder than I probably would with a 4x12 slant or open 2x12. On the other hand, high-gain can sound a little unruly through an open cab so there will always have to be a compromise, I guess.

 

[civicbud]

You're right. I played with it now and it seems the channel was made for the neck pup. Feel kind of silly for not experimenting with that more before. But my neck pup sounded muddy through my old amp and so I got of out of the habit of using it.

So long as I know everything is up to spec, I don't mind tweaking until I get what I need.

My closed 2x12 probably isn't helping the cleans, either, because the closed back muffles the highs and makes me want to turn up louder than I probably would with a 4x12 slant or open 2x12. On the other hand, high-gain can sound a little unruly through an open cab so there will always have to be a compromise, I guess.

Don't worry too much about the cab actually. I used to sport an open back and a ported cab, both of which accentuated the already over-the-top Roadster lows. I'd actually rather have the Roadster 212 with the Roadster head. Tighter, and more controlled bass response with the V-30s.

The Roadster cleans are always, with your bridge pup, going to be a little clean. The problem is, if you turn your gain down to 10 o'clock, you'll lose volume and reverb control. People forget how the gain and reverb are tied to one another. Less gain, less reverb control.

 

[espboogie123]

When I had my tremonti pickups still in my tremonti, ya, my roadster sounded a little dirty when i would strum hard. Switching to the lesser output tremonti bass pickup would clean it up good. I did not like the tone from the neck though so I swap out the pups in my tremonti which helped out alot. I went with a duncan distortion/jazz setup in my tremonti.

 

[jtroska]

Thanks everybody. I still wish it wouldn't clip quite so easily. But it's workable with the neck pickup. When recording, I can just keep the channel master down. And live I'll just have to live with it.

Preamp gain @ 12 noon does seem about right because the power amp will clean up at that setting if the channel master is backed down. Any higher than 12 noon on the preamp and it clips no matter what, which tells me the preamp tubes are clipping and it's too high.

 

[talltxguy]

To me, it doesn't sound right that you can't get that Roadster as clean as you want.

Wondering if you're running diodes or tube rec.

Also, what kind of output tubes are you running?

 

[jtroska]

I have the original Mesa/Boogie 6L6 tubes in there and it was set to 100 watts. I think it was set to Diodes but that doesn't seem to make too much difference. Rectifier tracking seems to compress a little but the clipping is the same either way.

Here's another sample I recorded, this time using the Gretsch. It's pickups aren't as hot as the PRS's. I'm still using the bridge pickup and this time I deliberately cranked the Channel Master a little higher to exaggerate the problem. I have the Channel Master at 1:30 and the power amp set to 100 watts / diode.
http://www.popcultureaquarium.com/jamestroska/RdstrGrtschCln.wav

Understand, I can reduce the annoying clipping by turning down or using the neck pickup. But it's always there a little unless I go down to a volume level that isn't really stage-worthy. So I don't know if that means my tubes are shot or if that's what tubes are expected to do.

 

[talltxguy]

My understanding is that the bias will be higher when using diodes as opposed to the rectifier. You said you can't tell the difference though, so forget that idea.

You mentioned that you're running Mesa 6L6's in there. 6L6's will have more headroom than EL34's, but that's not an issue since you're running 6L6's. However, what color are you running? Mesa reds are the coldest tubes and will produce the most headroom. Maybe you could be running a colder brand of Mesa tubes?

You're running 100 watts, which is the best way obviously to get headroom.

I'm not a tech, just somebody who has an interest in Mesa stuff - particularly the Roadster. The only other thing I can think of that is not a tech issue would be the Vintage 30 speakers! I think if you manipulate the tone settings, you'll be able to get a cleaner tone. There are speakers out there that break up later than Vintage 30's, but I just can't imagine you needing to replace that speaker or those speakers because of that reason.

I might suggest swapping out the first couple of preamp tubes as well as the phase inverter for some different 12AX7s. Some 12AX7's have more gain than others. You can always try a 5751 in the V1 as well. And perhaps a less powerful tube in the phase inverter will do it.

Let us know how things go.

 

[espboogie123]

Just checked my roadster... My channel 1 on clean is at exactly 12 noon on both the channel master and gain. I've never needed more. I adjust my other channels to these volumes then control main volume at master output. With this setup like this, my clean is pretty clean.

I will add that I'm using SED Winged C 6l6s as well.

 

[KH Guitar Freak]

Try turning up the output knob and backing down on the master control, and see if that helps...

 

[cscotto]

I bet with the master at 1:00 that even though the treble is at 12:00, the treble is giving you the breakup. Every time i was not getting a clean enough sound, i have found the treble to be the problem. The treble control on Mesa's is an alternate gain control. I would turn the treble down to 11:00 and compensate by turning up the presence.

 

[UnderJollyRoger]

I have the original Mesa/Boogie 6L6 tubes in there and it was set to 100 watts. I think it was set to Diodes but that doesn't seem to make too much difference. Rectifier tracking seems to compress a little but the clipping is the same either way.

Here's another sample I recorded, this time using the Gretsch. It's pickups aren't as hot as the PRS's. I'm still using the bridge pickup and this time I deliberately cranked the Channel Master a little higher to exaggerate the problem. I have the Channel Master at 1:30 and the power amp set to 100 watts / diode.
http://www.popcultureaquarium.com/jamestroska/RdstrGrtschCln.wav

Understand, I can reduce the annoying clipping by turning down or using the neck pickup. But it's always there a little unless I go down to a volume level that isn't really stage-worthy. So I don't know if that means my tubes are shot or if that's what tubes are expected to do.

I think it isn't the solution to just switch to your neck pickup, which is probably just quieter. I use a DR2010 and have also tested the Roadster. Both have very good clean channels which should also pretty much be the same if I remember correctly. In fact, I'm running EMG's into it, Gain set to about 12:00, channel master to 1:00 - 2:00 and this thing stays Clean. The samples you provided seem a little bit ... wrong to me.

Can you test another Roadster ? Would probably be the easiest way ...

 

[BostonRedSox]

jtroska -- You are right by the way, the clean naturally breaks up, thus meaning that there is little wrong with your amp. I play my Roadster LOUD as all heck, with the loop bypassed and the clean channels (1 and 2) volume at 1:00, gain at noon, and treble at 12:15. Like in your clip, the channels break up somewhat on the bridge pickup. On the neck pickup everything stays pretty clean. I know that this might be somewhat of a disappointment to you. At the end of the day however, you have to figure out if this is a reason to ditch the amp or work around it. I also coaxed a GC guy to let me play their Roadster at levels similar to what I use in practice and I got the same results. I've always noticed it, but never really thought much of it. Even with the treble down, the clean still breaks up slightly! Loop in or bypassed.

Anyways, don't go too crazy swapping tubes out and such, unless you have to. This is just the nature of the Roadster. I used to actually be able to keep things very clean on the clean channels, but that was with my volume just at a good audible level for gigging. We play loud, but not anything that is unheard of. We aren't a metal band, but a light rock band. I play loud enough to get my Roadster heard, and still, I too have breakup. Its slight, but it is definitely there. Just thought I'd share with you my conclusions so you aren't going crazy. I know some have stated that their Roadster's stay clean, but I doubt they are really pushing it in a gigging situation like we are. ibanez4life used to have a Roadster and I believe he gigged with his a lot too. I concur with his findings, and with yours.

 

[BostonRedSox]

Sounds about normal to me...1 o'clock on the master with loop bypassed, and gain at noon should be quite a lot of volume...i remember keeping my gain aroun 10:30-11 with master around noon, and switching the neck pickup and everything kept VERY clean...try backing things down a tiny bit?

Also something to keep in mind...what kind of pickup is pushing the front end of the amp?

Eric

This is a very good post. With my Roadster, if I back off the gain I can get more shimmer but less audible warmth that can't be compensated by the bass knob.

JTROSKA -- if you want more clean headroom, get a Lonestar. I know Andy Timmons runs his clean channels very clean but prefers to have the gain at 1:00. I don't know why he does this, but I know his sound is awesome and that his cleans are very, very clean. Knowing that the Roadster does have the Lonestar circuit, I am guessing that the higher gain channels 3 and 4 affect the headroom of the clean channels on the amp. After all, the Roadster gradually gets gainier as you switch channels. Channel 1 for example seems to be similar to channel 2 with identical settings, but there is definitely more girth to channel 2, as well as gain present. I think it is just the nature of the Roadster.

Good luck either way dude.

 

[BostonRedSox]

Also, be sure that you are using channel 1 as your main, squeaky clean channel since it isn't as gainy as the second clean channel. Channel 2 definitely has a little more to it, especially cranked, and it definitely isn't a tube thing. That is probably why the factory manual lists some pushed clean settings for channel 2, as Mesa was probably showing off this channels gainier clean capabilities.

 

[parsky1]

I get the exact same sound with my road king with the master past 12 oclock. It is a very different type of distortion. Maybe its distorting at the phase inverter?

I've learned to keep both channel 1 and 2 master below 12 oclock to minimize this