More chunk required from my dual rec! How?

[Gotty]

What is the best way of achieving a more powerful and tighter low end chunk from my 3 channel dual rectifier?

We have two guitars in my band and i am up against a 5150II and that thing is so tight and chunky for the palm muting punk/metal style that we play.

I have never been a pedal user but i have been reading alot about boosting?
Running eq pedals in the loop? and so on and so on....

I just want this thing to have a tighter and more brutal sound but i am not sure of the best way to achieve this.

I have two guitars, one with an emg 81 in the bridge and another with a Duncan JB.

The duncan just sounds weak and flabby.

What to try?

 

[YellowJacket]

Now I'm a Dual Rectifier owner posting on a Mesa messageboard so my views are obviously not biased at all. That being said, I knew a guy playing a Peavey Wolfgang through a 5150 II head with a Peavey 4 x 12 and my Revision F Dual with a Mesa Standard 4 x 12 totally ate that guy's tone. The Dual is pretty dang brutal, after all. (I was running the red channel on vacuum tubes and bold with 6L6 tubes, a Gibson LP Standard and a mesa standard rectocab. I had my settings with presence at 9:00 Gain at 12:06 Bass at 9:00 Mids at 12:00 treble at 11:59 and my volume was up over a quarter. The tone can best be described as CHUNKY!!)

Ok, you talk about pickups so you have obviously put some thought into this. Lets go through the signal chain then.

1) What guitars do you have? This will influence tone a lot. A pickup merely colours the sound of a guitar so you should get an axe that has a tone you like before even thinking about the pickups. In my experience, something like a Gibson Les Paul Standard or a Godin LG Signature series will make a great companion to the modern gain channel on the Dual. They do a ballsy thick rock tone, if that is what you are in to. Still, it isn't BRUTALZ.

2) Pickups: What do you mean by brutal? I mean you can run a livewire metal or the like from Seymour Duncan and they really emphasize the upper harmonics which results in a much more 'metal' tone. The thing with passive pickups is that they tend to have much more character in the tone so if you go this route, the trick is to find the sort of pickup that gives the colour of tone you want. Some pickups can sound super thick even if the output isn't insane.

3) Amp: Check tubes and settings. Switching preamp and power tubes to different brands can affect the tone of the amp. You can also change the tube type. An EL-34 has a much more aggressive and urgent crunch, furthermore the low end is much tighter. Also, how much low end do you dial into the amp when performing? The job of the bass guitar is to provide low end so you can back off the bass to get a tone that is tighter and tracks faster.

4) Cab and speakers. Do you run a 4 x 12? No other option sounds this huge, period. What sort of speakers do you want? There are many awesome Celestion speakers, not to mention all the other brands out there. Celestion v30s have this mid heavy tight and creamy roar, G12T-75s really scoop out the mids and grind by comparison. Both are great options. Greenbacks (g12m 25) sound good at lower volumes, are super creamy, and have a really nice woody purr. They have a lot of speaker distortion and they can't handle a huge amount of bass unless you are running a fullstack. The bass that they produce is proportionally loud to the tone you dial in.

Maybe browse the rigs and tones forum here at grailtone. People usually post pics of their gear along with audio clips and settings. This should provide a great starting point.

Hope this helps.

 

[R_ADKINS80]

"4) Cab and speakers. Do you run a 4 x 12? No other option sounds this huge, period."

I beg to differ.......my favorite cab right now has 3 speakers in it........2 12" Celestion 75's sitting over an Eminence Legend 15". More chunk than any other cab I have played and no harshness or peakiness in any part of the freq. range. Randall makes it. It's a Rs125cx or something like that. (came stock with Eminence 12's but you can also get a version stock with vintage 30's too......I don't like either so I went with the cheaper one and put my favorite speakers in it.

 

[Silverwulf]

What settings are you currently using?

 

[fishyfishfish]

Try channel 2 Modern with all tone knobs at noon with master volumes at noon and gain at 2:00 as a starting point and adjust to taste. I use a BB Preamp to thicken things up for some chunk, but you could get by with any Screamer type device. Even a BadMonkey will work.
Your cab choice will have a lot to do with your sound. I had to use some old rental cabs for the backline and my Dual sounded like wet dog crap hitting a fan at low speed. Try your head though your other guitar players cab and see what that does.
Good Luck.

 

[Gotty]

ok, thanks heaps for the feedback.

I am running a standard recto cab.
the emg is in a maton mastersound and the jb is in an esp eclipse.
as far as settings go i am using the red channel on the modern setting. silicon diode retifier and the bold setting!

playing around with eq settings a fair bit at the moment as i have heard these things can be a ***** to eq properly. as a matter of fact i have found it harder to eq since i have had a full retube done not that long ago. i am thinking mayba the sweet spots are in a diff location being diff valves? could this be correct?

basically playing with settings around these regions:

Pres between 9.00 and 12.00
gain 11.00 to 1.00
bass 9.00 to 11.00
mids 1.00 to 3.00
treble 10.00 to 11.30
channel volume around 10.00 to 11.00
master around 9.00 to 10.00 depending where i am playing around and how loud i can take it!

am i best running the loop using the master or maybe bypassing it?

should i be pushing my volume with the master more so or the red channel volume?

i am very interested in trying ou a boost pedal but i have heard that you really only need to boost passive pickups. is that true? apparently actives dont need boosting?

 

[YellowJacket]

Turning up the mids will give you a much more aggressive tone. The Standard Rectocab is pretty scooped sounding so midrange aggression is an absolute must, especially for a style like punk.

What kind of tubes are you running? It is true that replacing tubes (valves) can affect the way an amp responds. Depending on what you use, the tone can be affected quite dramatically, whether good or bad. A suggestion: EL-34s are a great power tube for a tighter low end and a pronounced midrange bark. Think of a more 'marshall-y' tone.

What about a cab with Celestion G12T-75s? These speakers have more breakup so they are much more grindy of a sound. Some like it, some don't.

 

[wildrat666]

boost it with an overdrive ....a maxon od808 or tubescreamer or bad monkey or whhatever...
get you tight and aggressive sound for sure..i promise

 

[Gotty]

I am running a full front end retube kit from dougs tubes which is a mix of five different 12ax7s and a quad of ruby 6L6s

very interested in trying el34s as i have never herd a boogy running them before so i will look into a set!

and i will be looking into an od808 i think. alot of people have recomended that pedal!

 

[fluff191]

You have the right idea and are in the ballpark for your settings.

I would def. get the OD808 and lose the Ruby's. IMO they just sound kind of general and linear. Try some JJ 6L6's or if you got the cash TAD 6L6. The only way to fly!

 

[domct203]

You have the right idea and are in the ballpark for your settings.

I would def. get the OD808 and lose the Ruby's. IMO they just sound kind of general and linear. Try some JJ 6L6's or if you got the cash TAD 6L6. The only way to fly!

+1

A good boost out front really makes a difference with the Rectos. The 808's and TS-9's are always a good choice, and a good OD pedal on the cheap is the Danelectro Cool Cat Transparent OD, only $40 new.

I'll agree with fluff191, there are better choices than the Ruby's. There is also the SED =C= SV6L6GC, my favorite over the Mesa STR-440, JJ and TAD 6L6GC's.

Dom

 

[Gotty]

thanx guys! very appreciated!

 

[jlomonac]

i run a TS9 on my DR roadster combo and it make everything way tighter and clear, but if you crack the dist on the TS9 you a pretty chunky sound out it. i say try an OD and you'll surprised.

 

[dtrax]

Just wanted to throw my 2cents into the mix, because the other guitarist in my band runs a 5150 (original block letter) as well. I have a 3 channel Triple Rec, but perhaps my experience is relevant.

I don't mean to sound biased, but my TR kicks the **** out of his amp. I mean, 5150's are great amps and an incredible value, but the TR is probably the meanest amp I've ever heard (I'm talking band/stage volumes specifically). It is so incredibly chunky and thick I couldn't imagine something being significantly "better". Different? Sure. I used to own a Recto-verb, and while it was a great amp, it could not hold a candle to the massive low end punch of the TR. I'd wager that a DR is with in the same ballpark, but I'm only assuming - never owned one.

Here's my settings as of last band practice:

CH3 Modern
Bold/SS Recto
Gain: 1:30
Treble: 1:00
Mid: 11:00
Bass: 11:00
Pres: 9:00
Master: 9:30 - FX loop was bypassed, so the master at this setting is VERY loud.

BTW, I don't use a boost. I like the feel and response of tubes, and adding an OD (even set as a clean boost) defeats that purpose. Rectos are brutal and nasty sounding straight out of the box. They aren't uber tight, but then, they weren't designed to be.

 

[ryjan]

An alternative to running a boost out front is putting an eq in the loop. Mxr's 10 band works pretty good. Makes the rectos a hell of a lot more versatile also.

 

[YellowJacket]

Just wanted to throw my 2cents into the mix, because the other guitarist in my band runs a 5150 (original block letter) as well. I have a 3 channel Triple Rec, but perhaps my experience is relevant.

I don't mean to sound biased, but my TR kicks the sh!t out of his amp. I mean, 5150's are great amps and an incredible value, but the TR is probably the meanest amp I've ever heard (I'm talking band/stage volumes specifically). It is so incredibly chunky and thick I couldn't imagine something being significantly "better". Different? Sure. I used to own a Recto-verb, and while it was a great amp, it could not hold a candle to the massive low end punch of the TR. I'd wager that a DR is with in the same ballpark, but I'm only assuming - never owned one.

Here's my settings as of last band practice:

CH3 Modern
Bold/SS Recto
Gain: 1:30
Treble: 1:00
Mid: 11:00
Bass: 11:00
Pres: 9:00
Master: 9:30 - FX loop was bypassed, so the master at this setting is VERY loud.

BTW, I don't use a boost. I like the feel and response of tubes, and adding an OD (even set as a clean boost) defeats that purpose. Rectos are brutal and nasty sounding straight out of the box. They aren't uber tight, but then, they weren't designed to be.

See, this has been my experience: A Mesa Recto absolutely kills a Peavey. The Dual isn't quite as gutsy as the triple and it sounds sweet at a hair lower volume than the triple does. Still, both have a super thick tone and the difference is negligible. I'd go to say that the Dual excels as a high gain rhythm machine and it was most definitely designed with power chords in mind. My only complaint is the one that everyone makes: The lead tone is alright but not stellar.

I just don't know what advice to give from here. I do know that the pickups in a guitar make a huge difference in tone. I played a Godin LG equipped with a set of active EMGs through a Tiny Terror into a Dr Z 2 x 12 and it sounded super metal. Massive chug! Also, I've noticed that I can play many styles on my amp with the same settings, all depending on how I play the instrument. So much of our sound as a player is in the fingers.

It would be interesting for the dude who started the thread to swap gear with the other guitarist and see even how that affects the sound. Even let that guy dial in a tone on the Dual. Another option is to leave the amps the same and swap out guitars. As much as it is lame to talk about name brand instruments, a Gibson LP Standard or any flavour of high end PRS tend to really make the Rectos come alive for beef. My Les Paul fails at metal, in my opinion, but it sounds as thick as triple chocolate cake. (or a 10lb beef roast)

 

[MF]

BTW, I don't use a boost. I like the feel and response of tubes, and adding an OD (even set as a clean boost) defeats that purpose. Rectos are brutal and nasty sounding straight out of the box. They aren't uber tight, but then, they weren't designed to be.

This is my experience as well. I've dabbled with boosts and OD's and keep one around on the rare occasion that i need one, but most of the time i'm just running the orange channel on modern with the gain at about 1pm and it never fails to impress people. I'll use the red channel only when i need to go that extra mile, but i use it sparingly. That probably doesn't help the OP but that's the sound i want from my DR.

 

[danvortex]

Well we all our receipe...
So here is mine

i've been playing Drs for 10 years, i own 3 different revisions G-D-C (D and C are both pre-500)
over the years i have tried many different things and here is what works the best for me to acheive a crushing metal tone:

1. Use a recto 4*12 cab, they really make a difference, much more than swapping tubes...
2. EL34s will give you a tighter rythm crunch
3. Use Bold, silicone diode, red channel
4. activate the loop even if you don't put anything in it, it will also tighten things up a bit
5. Don't go to extremes with the settings, if you have to do so something must be wrong with your rig or your ears. Start with everything between 11 o'clock and 13 o'clock (including gain, channel volume and mids)
6. Put an OD in front. But you have to set it up right, otherwise your amp will become muddier. The OD's Gain must be at 0 (minimum), trebel between 60 and 90%, level between 60 to 90%. You won't beleive the difference in thigtness and agression. The goal is not to add more distortion, in fact running the front end of your amp this way will give you a more agressive, thight and articulate tone without using extreme gain settings on the amp. The goal is to sound agressive without too much distortion. I get lots of peolple in our shows coming to ask how i get this tone since i have this set up
7. last but not least, with an od in front you will definitly need a noïse gate before hitting the amp, otherwise you will get too much feedback and noïse, just taking your hands off the frets will have the amp going into feedback...
8. A boost or an EQ are better than nothing but to me they don't do the job, i really like OD's better

 

[danvortex]

if you want to know how this set up sounds take a look to one of the songs on my band's myspace, this is studio work but i sound very close to it live, the settings i gave you will get you there.

 

[fluff191]

I don't use a boost. I like the feel and response of tubes, and adding an OD (even set as a clean boost) defeats that purpose. Rectos are brutal and nasty sounding straight out of the box. They aren't uber tight, but then, they weren't designed to be.

+1

I don't like a boost either. It does sound good, but there is a certain dynamic lost, so it only feels like its "balls out" at all times. Its just not for me personally, although I can see the appeal.