Mic placement when recording

[SeasonOfPain]

OK, here's a topic I haven't seen yet. I've been spending hours and hours trying to get a decent recorded tone with my Mark IV and F-50 through my Mesa 4x12, and just cannot get the meaty tone that I hear others posting. The signal chain is quality enough and as simple as can be (JPMM guitar -> Mesa amp -> Mesa 4x12 -> SM57 -> MBox1), but it seems no matter what I do the tone is thin compared to other samples I hear.

Amp volume isn't the issue (it happens whether I crank it enough to shake the house or at unprotected listening levels).

The big variable that I suspect is affecting this is mic placement. The room shouldn't necessarily affect things much, since I'm close-micing only (about 1 cm from the grille). What it must be is placement of the mic relative to the speaker. I've noticed a lot of variations in tone just moving the mic as little as an inch relative to the speaker cone.

Here are some shots of a common mic position attempt for me:

What I'd love to see is a discussion of what mic placements other people use to get their tone with Mesa gear. Do certain positions work better with Mesa amps/cabs than others?

 

[JamesD]

This is a good topic, There were some Mic Placement idea's given out in this thread here that may be of some help.

http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?t=5459

 

[ibanez4life SZ!]

Yup! I was about to post a link to my old thread!

What I found, is that you have to turn your bass up quite a bit more for recording....mids can go down a bit....

As for placement, I still have not found an optimal one....best one so far is right up in the grill, on the cone, but angles at the dome....(if that makes sense)

 

[JamesD]

It really is amazing how moving the mic a tiny bit can change sound so drastically. I have not had the pleasure of working with the SM57 yet, but looking at them on ebay. Hopefully i will be of some help one day or get some tips

 

[Enc3f4L0]

I'll borrow the thread a bit and ask 'What earphones do you guys use while micing?'

Last time I miced I nearly got deaf because the earphones wasn't isolating the sound coming directly from the cab.

I could just stay in the control room and have someone mic for me while I hear through monitors... BUT I like to move the mic around myself while I play. I need something that will give me just the sound coming from the mixer while totally isolating from the cab. Any suggestions? Thanks

 

[broknstuff]

I have a pair of Sennheiser 280 HD pro and they block out a lot of sound. I used them while recording my recto into our other guitarist marshall cab, with the drum tracks feeding into my headphone mix. I sat directly behind the cab so I'd get less volume, and the amp was up loud, but I was still able to recort for a long time without having any ringing in my ears after I was done. Actually I put in ear plugs and then the headphones on top. Wierd I konw, but hey it worked for me.

The one thing about the S 280 HD pro though is that I'm still not sure I love it for disorted guitar tracks. The bass isn't as strong or tight in these I feel like, but it does give you a very natural sound, as if everything was more "live". So they sound awesome for listening to acoustic stuff, but for rock/disortion, they sound more high end and midrangy and I don't get that low mid/bass response that I like. Now I don't know if its because my other systems are too bass heavy or just these headphones lack it a bit.

Look for closed air type head phones, at least that's what I think it's called. Basically people can't hear what your listening too and it blocks out outside noise.

 

[SeasonOfPain]

I also use Senn 280 HD's. They do block out a lot of noise, but if the cab's in the same room with me, I still feel the bass from my 4x12 (which artificially "colors" my perception of the recording).

Today I tried something new. I moved the cab out of my recording room and into another room (with a heavy wooden door between). For fun, I tipped the 4x12 on its side and miced that, hoping to pick up more bass response.

I can't say it helped tremendously. I think there was a tad more, but I can't tell for sure. There was definitely more isolation, and I could get a truer sound through the cans (not to mention a lot less feedback).

I've uploaded some raw clips to Soundclick. These are raw takes of part of a song I'm recording. One is from my F-50, the other from my Mark IV (the former had the cab on casters, the latter had the cab on its side). Otherwise they're the same: MusicMan Axis Sport -> amp -> Mesa 4x12 cab -> SM-57 -> MBox 1 -> ProTools.

Here are the clips:

F-50
Mark IV

Please have a listen and let me know if I'm just imagining things?

 

[ibanez4life SZ!]

Definitely agree about everything about the Sennheissers! Great phones, great isolations.....but lack a bit of bass, and do thin out distortion a bit.

 

[hans-jürgen]

From your pictures it's obvious that you point the SM57 almost straight to the middle of the speaker which is the place where all the shrill highs are produced. A better place would be halfway between the middle and the edge of the cone and the mic angled at 45°, so you don't pickup so many highs.

If you don't record in a live situation with a band, you can also move the mic away from the cab as much as you like which will add more real room ambience. You don't have to use a directional mic either, because there's nothing which would have to be filtered out from the direct guitar sound. So an omnidirectional mic at a distance of e.g. 10" will probably deliver a more natural sound than a close-up SM57. A professional studio would use an expensive tube mic for that (Neumann etc.), but you can also test this with a cheaper model like a standard electret condenser or dynamic version. Do not point such a mic towards the cone either, because they enhance the highs on the straight axis, too, that's why you often see them pointing to the ceiling of the studio.

 

[SeasonOfPain]

The saga continues:

I think something is wrong beyond mic position. I ran a test this morning, positioning the mic as follows:

The tone, while smoother than previous recent attempts (where the mic was more centered on the cone) is still way too thin-sounding:

F-50 riff 2

I actually ran the track through a PAZ analyzer, and was astonished to see that there's almost no low frequency at all. Now I know that an analyzer plug-in isn't necessarily the last word in judging tone, but it looks (and sounds) as if I filtered out everything below 120 Hz, when the track is completely unprocessed:

What in the world would be cutting off the low end like that?

Could it be the MBox converters or mic pres? I've tried both mic inputs on the MBox, with no apparent difference.

Other wild guesses:
- The mic itself? SM-57's are supposed to be pretty rugged.
- Could the mic cable cause loss in low frequency?
- Room (bass reflections)? I moved the cab into a larger basement area (about 20' of open space), and I'm close-micing, so I wouldn't think that would make much difference.
- Some esoteric setting I've unwittingly made in ProTools? I'm actually highly suspicious of this one, as I could swear that the incoming tone is fine when monitoring (via the MBox), even accounting for some low-end bleed from the cabinet in the other room.

I'm getting really frustrated. :x

 

[SeasonOfPain]

Whoo-hoo! I finally got a recorded tone that didn't sound thin.

It really turned out to boil down to mic position. After hours and hours of experimenting, I decided to try the upper-left speaker instead of the lower-left. I finally managed to find a location that hits the sweet spot on those V30's. I'm sure a better pre-amp would have helped, but I'm glad it wasn't an equipment failure!

For posterity, in case this helps anyone find a better recording tone:

Axis Sport -> F-50 -> Mesa Std 4x12 -> SM57 -> MBox
F-50: Ch 2 (contour on) - Gain & Treble @ 1:00, Mid & Bass @ 9:00, Master @ 10:00
Mic: SM-57, on-axis - Upper-right speaker, 5" down, 4.5" in, from grille edge (not cab edge!)
MBox Ch2 mic gain @ 1:00

Here's a very rough mixdown of the song incorporating the newly-recorded riff (the F-50 is the rhythm; I need to re-record the Mark IV leads). I'd appreciate any further feedback or tips.

Thanks much to everyone here for all the help in troubleshooting.

 

[Dann'sTheMan]

Whoo-hoo! I finally got a recorded tone that didn't sound thin.

It really turned out to boil down to mic position. After hours and hours of experimenting, I decided to try the upper-left speaker instead of the lower-left. I finally managed to find a location that hits the sweet spot on those V30's. I'm sure a better pre-amp would have helped, but I'm glad it wasn't an equipment failure!

For posterity, in case this helps anyone find a better recording tone:

Axis Sport -> F-50 -> Mesa Std 4x12 -> SM57 -> MBox
F-50: Ch 2 (contour on) - Gain & Treble @ 1:00, Mid & Bass @ 9:00, Master @ 10:00
Mic: SM-57, on-axis - Upper-right speaker, 5" down, 4.5" in, from grille edge (not cab edge!)
MBox Ch2 mic gain @ 1:00

Here's a very rough mixdown of the song incorporating the newly-recorded riff (the F-50 is the rhythm; I need to re-record the Mark IV leads). I'd appreciate any further feedback or tips.

Thanks much to everyone here for all the help in troubleshooting.

Sounds great! Good job! The F-50 sounds crunchy and thick! 8) Would you mind me linking to this in the Clip Archive in HCAF's F-series Lounge?

Big smiles,

Andy.

 

[SeasonOfPain]

Sounds great! Good job! The F-50 sounds crunchy and thick! 8) Would you mind me linking to this in the Clip Archive in HCAF's F-series Lounge?

Thanks, Andy! By all means, link away! It's actually a combo of the F-50 and the Mark IV (F-50 is panned outermost L/R, Mark IV is the more centered and solo tone).

I think I'll actually make an intro posting on the F-50 Lounge myself. I've been meaning to for a while (just too lazy to register on HC). Best source of info on the F-50 anywhere.