Mesa Warranty

[th0rr]

Just wondering why using tubes other than Mesa brand will void the warranty? The obvious would be that they want to sell their tubes but could there be any other reason? I mean they just rebrand tubes that others sell correct?

Have they just started this? I do not remember reading anything about this when I owned the F-50. I remember that they strongly recommended Mesa branded tubes but nothing about voiding the warranty.

Seems kinda harsh to me. Especially since I remember a big change in the tone (for the better) on my F-50 when I swapped out the Mesa branded ones for JJ's.

I thought that one of the cool things about owning tube amps was the ability to change or color your tone simply by swapping out a $15 preamp tube.

 

[Mark Fore]

Mesa has always stipulated this in their literature. I believe the reason is that the bias range for the matched tubes they sell work best without messing anything up re: bias.

Of course, there is a popular belief that Mesa just wants you to buy their tubes. :?

 

[th0rr]

Mesa has always stipulated this in their literature. I believe the reason is that the bias range for the matched tubes they sell work best without messing anything up re: bias.

Of course, there is a popular belief that Mesa just wants you to buy their tubes. :?

But when you buy from, say, DougsTubes or Eurotubes do they not select the tubes with the correct bias or at least within the range? I know both have a section for tubes for Mesa amps. Ran my Eurotubes in my F50 for a yr with no issues.

 

[th0rr]

I just went through the F50 manual. No where in there does it state that using another manufacturers tubes will void the warranty.

In the Mark V manual where it gives the layout of the tubes it states that "to maintain warranty use Mesa tubes when necessary". So it does seem to indicate that this is a new policy.

Anyone with an old Mark IV manual to check to see if it states this in there as well?

This worries me. Dropping 2 grand on an amp and if I use another manufacturers tubes I will void the warranty? Even if the issue is unrelated? To me that is what "to maintain warranty use Mesa tubes when necessary" indicates. Maybe the "necessary" part is a built in loophole. heh.


I highly doubt this will stop me from eventually succumbing to the lure of changing tubes.
I suppose one could always just keep the Mesa tubes around and if something happens plug em back in if one needs warranty work. Just seems like a person shouldn't have to go to those lengths.:roll:

 

[lesterpaul]

a lot of informative articles on Boogie website-may want to check this out-
http://www.mesaboogie.com/US/Smith/biasadjust.html

I would be careful regarding power tubes and the MK V,esp. if running 34's-check out this thread/biasrite readings-I simply do not know if the manufacturers you mentioned have put a V on the bench and tested current draw,etc
http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=38013&start=45
..I made the paint melt on my EL34's after a fun filled evening of 10watt dimed out punishment-after joey put her on the biasrite, we figured I better pull back a little
"...I love the smell of melting paint in the morning...smells like...victory!"
-the wrong power tubes in an amp this complex could screw the pooch,thus voiding the warranty

 

[Mark Fore]

Definitely not a new policy. I've never owned an F-50 so that might be an anomoly. Every other Mesa manual I've had since '85 has stated this. No, definitely not a new policy. 100% Positive. Check other manuals or re-read it.

 

[Mark Fore]

Mark III manual, top of page 7: http://mesaboogie.com/manuals/Mark%20III.pdf
Simul-295, page 4: http://mesaboogie.com/manuals/Stereo%20Simul%20295.pdf

Those are the two I checked to prove it has been a policy for at least 20 years.

 

[phyrexia]

mark fore is correct

 

[Mark Fore]

How're you doin' in your part of the world Phyr?

 

[mejoshee]

Mesa has always stipulated this in their literature. I believe the reason is that the bias range for the matched tubes they sell work best without messing anything up re: bias.

Of course, there is a popular belief that Mesa just wants you to buy their tubes. :?

that being said, there's no way to 100% guarantee you will always have a mesa set on hand. could be said about a lot of other manufacturers, though not many of them have strictly indicated what brand(s) to use, let alone have their own testing/grading system.

idk. i'm skeptical of their claims. i know there are some things that they can control better by testing and selling their own tubes (esp. performance), but as we've all seen, changing up tubes gives a lot better tone in some case. the problem is weighing if the tone is worth the price of "voiding" one's warranty.

tone is worth any price, in my opinion, which is why sometimes people have huge a$$ gear racks. if the tubes are part of that mystical & scientific conjunction then by all means choose your own tubes. but what i'd like to know is if anyone out there has had a performance issue based on the choice of another comparably rated tube. (obviously a downright poorly biased, matched, or inappropriate tube may/will wreak havoc on tone let alone electrical behavior.)

anyway, what i think is i'll stick with the mesa tubes as long as they last, barring any microphony, redplating, or outright misbehavior. and then switch when i feel like it. and when the rating numbers and tube compatibility for the mark v are solidified.

 

[MrMarkIII]

Mesa has always stipulated this in their literature. I believe the reason is that the bias range for the matched tubes they sell work best without messing anything up re: bias.

Of course, there is a popular belief that Mesa just wants you to buy their tubes. :?

that being said, there's no way to 100% guarantee you will always have a mesa set on hand. could be said about a lot of other manufacturers, though not many of them have strictly indicated what brand(s) to use, let alone have their own testing/grading system.

idk. i'm skeptical of their claims. i know there are some things that they can control better by testing and selling their own tubes (esp. performance), but as we've all seen, changing up tubes gives a lot better tone in some case. the problem is weighing if the tone is worth the price of "voiding" one's warranty.

tone is worth any price, in my opinion, which is why sometimes people have huge a$$ gear racks. if the tubes are part of that mystical & scientific conjunction then by all means choose your own tubes. but what i'd like to know is if anyone out there has had a performance issue based on the choice of another comparably rated tube. (obviously a downright poorly biased, matched, or inappropriate tube may/will wreak havoc on tone let alone electrical behavior.)

anyway, what i think is i'll stick with the mesa tubes as long as they last, barring any microphony, redplating, or outright misbehavior. and then switch when i feel like it. and when the rating numbers and tube compatibility for the mark v are solidified.

Mesa sets the bias in their amps, then tests and sells tubes that will match that set bias. This actually breaks with tradition. Most other amp makers do just the opposite: you buy any set of tubes you like, then adjust the amp's bias to match the tubes.
All of the reputable tube sellers can sell you a set to match your specific Boogie.
Some think you get a better sound by biasing your own amp, mostly because Mesas are biased on the "cold" side, to err in favor of tube longevity. Some feel that amps sound better biased "hot", but tube life suffers.
Six of one...

 

[Jim Ed Love]

]
Mesa sets the bias in their amps, then tests and sells tubes that will match that set bias. This actually breaks with tradition. Most other amp makers do just the opposite: you buy any set of tubes you like, then adjust the amp's bias to match the tubes.
All of the reputable tube sellers can sell you a set to match your specific Boogie.
Some think you get a better sound by biasing your own amp, mostly because Mesas are biased on the "cold" side, to err in favor of tube longevity. Some feel that amps sound better biased "hot", but tube life suffers.
Six of one...

I think that Mesa is trying to make money on tubes #1 and they want to make sure the tubes in their amps are up to spec. Here is a quote from the article on the Booge site.

As long as the tubes ARE "in spec", the right bias voltage will always give the correct plate "CURRENT" -- but then there's no need for the bias voltage to be adjustable!

The words that stand out here are "IN SPEC". A good tube dealer will test their tubes before selling them and they will be "IN SPEC". In fact, good tube dealers probably do a better job than Mesa Boogie testing their tubes, at least that has been my experience. There is no special "spec" for Mesa amps. A 6l6 that is tested properly and is "IN SPEC" will work well in any amplifier, including Boogies.

I don't trust the big dealers like Guitar Center or American Musical Supply etc. Go to a good tube dealer like thetubestore.com or http://pages.prodigy.net/jimmcshane/tubes.htm, and you won't have to worry about getting tubes that are out of spec.

 

[dodger916]

I think that Mesa is trying to make money on tubes #1 and they want to make sure the tubes in their amps are up to spec. Here is a quote from the article on the Booge site.

As long as the tubes ARE "in spec", the right bias voltage will always give the correct plate "CURRENT" -- but then there's no need for the bias voltage to be adjustable!

The words that stand out here are "IN SPEC". A good tube dealer will test their tubes before selling them and they will be "IN SPEC". In fact, good tube dealers probably do a better job than Mesa Boogie testing their tubes, at least that has been my experience. There is no special "spec" for Mesa amps. A 6l6 that is tested properly and is "IN SPEC" will work well in any amplifier, including Boogies.

I don't trust the big dealers like Guitar Center or American Musical Supply etc. Go to a good tube dealer like thetubestore.com or http://pages.prodigy.net/jimmcshane/tubes.htm, and you won't have to worry about getting tubes that are out of spec.

Not sure what you mean. I thought tubes of the same architecture (e.g, 6L6, EL34) have certain operating ranges given their architecture, but that current draw among individual tubes will differ, which is why they need to be measured and matched for a push/pull circuit. Are you saying the operating range of ANY matched pair of 6L6s will be ok in ANY pair of Mesa 6L6 sockets? If so, the only result will be a different sound based upon the how well the current draw of the matched pair will match up with the fixed bias of the Mesa circuit? (too hot = short life; too cold = brittle sound?)

Also, what is the basis of you sayng "...good tube dealers probably do a better job than Mesa Boogie testing their tubes, at least that has been my experience." Are you referring to tube failure rates or an ability to accurately measure and match tube duets/quads? I'm not challenging you, just curious.

 

[MrMarkIII]

]
Mesa sets the bias in their amps, then tests and sells tubes that will match that set bias. This actually breaks with tradition. Most other amp makers do just the opposite: you buy any set of tubes you like, then adjust the amp's bias to match the tubes.
All of the reputable tube sellers can sell you a set to match your specific Boogie.
Some think you get a better sound by biasing your own amp, mostly because Mesas are biased on the "cold" side, to err in favor of tube longevity. Some feel that amps sound better biased "hot", but tube life suffers.
Six of one...

I think that Mesa is trying to make money on tubes #1 and they want to make sure the tubes in their amps are up to spec. Here is a quote from the article on the Booge site.

As long as the tubes ARE "in spec", the right bias voltage will always give the correct plate "CURRENT" -- but then there's no need for the bias voltage to be adjustable!

The words that stand out here are "IN SPEC". A good tube dealer will test their tubes before selling them and they will be "IN SPEC". In fact, good tube dealers probably do a better job than Mesa Boogie testing their tubes, at least that has been my experience. There is no special "spec" for Mesa amps. A 6l6 that is tested properly and is "IN SPEC" will work well in any amplifier, including Boogies.

I don't trust the big dealers like Guitar Center or American Musical Supply etc. Go to a good tube dealer like thetubestore.com or http://pages.prodigy.net/jimmcshane/tubes.htm, and you won't have to worry about getting tubes that are out of spec.

"There is no special "spec" for Mesa amps." Of course there is - it is the bias at which the amp is set - THAT IS THE "SPEC". For Mesa, the tubes are chosen to match the "spec" OF THE AMP.
The "good tube dealers" will sell you tubes THAT MATCH THE "SPEC" OF THE PARTICULAR AMP YOU HAVE, BE IT FENDER, BOOGIE, MARSHALL, ETC.
The statement "A 6l6 that is tested properly and is "IN SPEC" will work well in any amplifier, including Boogies.", is simply not factual. Any and all power tubes much be made to "fit" the amp in which they are installed.
You can "fit" the amp to the tubes (adjustable bias), or you can "fit" the tubes to the amp (fixed bias), but "fit" you must.
Hope this helps

 

[th0rr]

I think for now I will just stick with the stock tubes. On my F-50 I changed tubes in search of better tone since I am happy with the tones I am getting at this point I don't see me needing to swap tubes.

I still think the warranty thing is a curiosity.

 

[Jim Ed Love]

I am not an electronic engineer so I can't argue from that stand point. However, I do know something from people that are tube amp designers. My stereo has 35 tubes in it. I personally know the designer/electronic engineer of my tube amp, Ken Stevens, and he spoke to me about tubes and bias. Also, I emailed Jim Mcshane another tube amp designer and asked him about Mesa Boogie's policy.

A tube amp is designed to run at a certain bias and with specific tube types, 6L6, 6550 etc. There is no doubt that designers prefer one tube brand over another but they will concede that any brand of the type of tube the amp is designed for will work in their amp as long as it is properly tested. A tube like the 6L6 is designed to operate within certain specifications. A good tube is a good tube. Mesa's tube measurements are exactly the same as anyone else that knows how to test a tube. Specifications for a 6L6 are what they are, and anyone that knows how to test tubes can measure those specs. That is why Boogie and other tube dealers test their tubes, to make sure they will work right.

There is no magic fairy dust here. Tubes are manufactured in China and Russia. Mesa buys a bunch of them from the factory in Russia or China and tests them. Mesa does not use tubes that are a special design for their amps.

If you like the way Mesa tubes sound, great! Putting in other properly tested tubes will not damage the amp, however.

Mesa wants you to buy their tubes so they can make money and also, they want to make sure your amp operates properly.

I prefer using dealers like the tube store and Jim Mcshane because I know they use the best equipment for testing and they are careful. They stand behind their product. They offer more than one brand, including NOS tubes. I can actually communicate with the person testing the tubes.

Does Mesa Boogie include the MKV bias in their spec sheet? I suppose one could tell a tube dealer what bias the MKV runs at and ask for tubes the fit.

 

[Jim Ed Love]

"There is no special "spec" for Mesa amps." Of course there is - it is the bias at which the amp is set - THAT IS THE "SPEC". For Mesa, the tubes are chosen to match the "spec" OF THE AMP.
The "good tube dealers" will sell you tubes THAT MATCH THE "SPEC" OF THE PARTICULAR AMP YOU HAVE, BE IT FENDER, BOOGIE, MARSHALL, ETC.
The statement "A 6l6 that is tested properly and is "IN SPEC" will work well in any amplifier, including Boogies.", is simply not factual. Any and all power tubes much be made to "fit" the amp in which they are installed.
You can "fit" the amp to the tubes (adjustable bias), or you can "fit" the tubes to the amp (fixed bias), but "fit" you must.
Hope this helps

I wonder how much of a difference in bias is from one tube to another.

 

[Mark Fore]

Adding a possible point of view from Mesa's side... as well as how confused everyone seems to be re: the finer details of tubes in general (including me), they probably stipulate this so they don't have to service their amps because someone installed tubes that didn't match. Mesa sets the bias and makes sure their tubes work within that range. The amount of amps that would need servicing because someone put the wrong tubes in would be a financial burden to them without this condition.

Of course there are people that know a lot about tubes and can make it work, but they are the minority I would bet. It's a safety measure against the rest of us that might not even be able to tell the difference between Mesa and non-Mesa tubes. :wink: