Mesa MarkV / Saturation 'mod'

[Markageddon]

A/B switchers. Mesa Have just released some, coincidentally sounds like your next port of call.
Good for if you feel the need for multiple rigs, or if you like selecting between them. And even have phase control built in.

Yeah get a vid up man.

 

[Markageddon]

The Mark III is now pinnacle sounding with 12AT7s in both Phase Inverter (V5) and V3 the loop and lead channel mode's circuit, apparently. Sounds titanic, has the same picking dynamics as IIC+ mode on the v, organic beautiful gain similar effect as it had on V4 for the V and V:25. Incredible even at respectful evening levels.

Its now:
V1: Mesa SPAX7
V2: Tungsol silver
V3: Mesa 12AT7
V4: Mesa 12AX7
V5: Mesa 12AT7

So gonna have to order in a replacement for one of the AT7s I took out of the V head to do this.
The smoothness, roundedness and lightning feel it brings to the already raw and huge sounding non-simul version is amazing.
Might be handy for some of you guys running blue and green stripes especially (if you're trying to get a more Metallica like thing happening out of them.)

 

[bandit2013]

Hijack notice: Temporary sidetrack for a topic of interest....

The Switch Track is great. At first I thought it was adding a bit of noise as the typical buzz with a high gain setting was more noticeable. I then realized it was getting stronger the closer my hand came to the cable connections so I checked the plugs, one was not seated all the way. Oops... The unit does add a bit of gain to the signal but it is clean gain as this compensates for the isolation transformers that is used on all signal outputs. I am impressed with the function and quality of the Switch Track. No pops on channel changes, I cannot tell with my eyes closed which amp is active when running the clean channels. The TC-50 on clean is a dead ringer for the JP-2C clean channel. The best feature in my books is the "both" function.

I do have another ABY AMP switcher that can be used with stereo pedals. It is OK but not immune to noise pickup. I do not think has a buffered input but sounds like it does. Also there is no strobe mute circuit to swamp out the pops. I found it useful as a static device more than a switcher and the oversized mushroom buttons are awkward. You have to hold them down for a second and there is no guarantee the desired channel will switch. I will not flame here but it works with some unfavorable confusion. I held off doing any comparative recordings for soundcloud or youtube as the little dual switcher was not ideal for the task at hand.

The Mesa Switch track, however is the golden key to dual amp use. I can run up to three amps if I use the tuner out as a center channel but that output will be active at all times. Not sure if the mute function would turn it off. As for the mute part using a common contact switch to do "both or mute", it is a time base function. Hold the button down for about 2 to 3 seconds to get the mute to activate. To get it out of mute, just tap the switch. Also there is no noise associated with mute, or channel switching. Perfectly silent. Since the TC series blue channel (ch2) is out of phase with the JP or Mark V, you can use the button to shift the phase of the B channel. This function can be midi controlled so if you have specific amp you want for a passage of a song and the other for the rest of it or say part is a blend of two amps and you need to have different channels on each amp selected. The phase switch can be midi programmed to correspond with the program number that sets the amp's channels, Both, A or B can also be midi programmed. Nice unit. Now I have to get a midi controller to complete my setup as I still do not have a means to turn on and off the FX loop of the JP unless I use the mini toggle switch on the front panel or use it active and keep the loop in hard bypass using the fx pedal as the gate keeper. A midi controller will take out the pedal dance routine. So why am I not acting on it yet? (the answer to that question is money) Not exactly tapped out but have also funded some recording gear that set me back a bit. That drum set is costing me more than I expected but at least I found the right gear to get a good recording of it.


Derailed thread is now being returned to its content of interest. If you have not tried the Jan/Phillips 12AT7 in V4 of your Mark V:90 what is preventing you from doing so?

 

[bandit2013]

I am getting setup for some recording and figured I would make a statement on the Mark V with the 12AT7 in V4. Holly **** does this amp rock! Sure I made a few mods to my V but that was to cure some tone issues I was having on CH3 beyond what the 12AT7 was providing. As I stated earlier, the jumper mod on V6 was removed as I much prefer the Extreme voice to have more meat but not too much so the original circuit was fine with me. Yes, still have the GEQ mod and that one is staying as well as removal of C39. The hard mods are not required so rock on. Yes, I can finally say that both the Mark V and JP-2C are dead nuts on par with each other. With the Switch track, I am getting a stereo Mark amp and that is far more rewarding than running a pair of 412 cabs with one amp. In the attached image, I placed the Mark V combo on top of the vertical 212 since that will be the cab I will be using to match that of what is under the JP-2C. :shock: The Mark V is a bit brighter than the JP but that is easily remedied with the presence pull controls. I am amazed how much ch2 in crunch voice and a moderate gain setting is close to the CH2 of the JP-2C. Then again, that setting on CH2 is about the same as the Mark IV voice on CH3 with a lower gain setting. Love them both equally so no reason not to be happy? :roll:
I am sure my recording once I have it all set up will be interesting. Yeah, microphones usually sound better when they are connected. Have not gotten to that point yet..... if all works out may share this recording here. Still thinking on doing a video though....a bit more extra work. (in case anybody is wondering what is hiding behind the grill cloth on the Mark V, it is an EVM12L Black Label speaker I bought some time ago, no logo on the dust cap so it hides better than the one's I have loaded up in a 412 cab. I will be adding the same to the 1x12 widebody cab (currently has the OTR speaker in it) so I can downsize the JP and run it with the Mark V combo or use it in parallel with the Mark V combo speaker (nothing is better than a pair of EV speakers pushing some air, well a 412 loaded with them would be but not really needed.)

 

[Markageddon]

Yes thats the one.

Yes having identical sounds in amps would be pointless in the simultaneous operation scenario IMHO.
One way ticket to Mudsville, Mush County (Especially at high gain)
Better off with 1 EV + 2x V30s. Far superior spread and covering of serious frequency range that way, in my experience.
And learning to dial amps around each amp setting's strengths and weaknesses... develop that kinda of thinking, and you'll never leave your amps/the room ever again because of the awesomeness) EG Edge mode and Mark IV for example, Or JP2c and Edge or whatever but basically opposing sounds combining to make a 'distinct new thing that uses the best of both'.

 

[bandit2013]

I made a crappy video but the sound quality is ok. Always when the Camera is on, loose sight of the plan and end up with the end result. It does compare the Mark V CH3 mkiv voice to the CH2 or CH3 of the JP-2C. Microphones used: Sennheiser e609 on top speaker of each cabinet, SM57 on the bottom speaker at an offset to the center. Focusrite Scarlet Octo Pre Dynamic and direct to recorder/mixer and out to video camera. No post processing. Flat eq. Yes, my playing skills have seen better days.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3MYn1qrbJs

Here are the channel settings I used in the video since you cannot see them in the video.

 

[Markageddon]

Wow. The V came across better there for my money.
More full bodied/even across range, mix friendly seeming, and that vintage sound seems to be my thing.
Definitely all aspects that the 12at7 mods play strong with.
The modern tone of the JP is apparent there for sure.
Good demo of the switcher. Like the inframe monitor. Nice touch.

 

[bandit2013]

I just got back from correcting the video problem. Bought a new 4K camcorder for much better viewing pleasure. I may do a series of before and after recordings of the Mark V with and without the 12AT7 (will have to swap the tube rather than just take it out and leave it that way). Love the focusrite Scarlet Octo Pre Dynamic preamp. Sweet, it really works great. May try it with the huge mixer along with the ribbon mic and see where that goes. This time I will focus only on the Mark V. As for the JP-2C, I dialed up the presence and adjusted the tone to be similar to the Mark V as it was running on the bright side during the setup part. Then I decided to swap out two tubes (V3 with a stocker and V6 with a Mullard long plate) which subdued some of the treble response. I may just to the chassis pull and leave it out for easy tube swaps like I would normally do when tube rolling. I would not suggest doing that with the JP-2C as that is a Pain to get back into the shell (primarily reconnecting the power cord was the difficult task). Besides, the front panel comes off for preamp tube access so no point to pull the chassis on that amp. Odd that I had to keep reducing the volume level on the Mark V to match the JP-2C set at noon. It was not the bottom end that needed curbing, it was the top end. However, that recording was very close to the real deal, the only thing missing was the mass of air flow from the speakers. The close mic set up took away from the awe of the stereo effect but was close enough. Will have to see if the ribbon mic siting sideways will do much for that effect or not. May need another reference to go with it like an EV RE320 as that mic is amazing when using the cloudlifter. May have to try it with the Focusrite preamp and may do the same with the ribbon mic. Cool, now I have a few new toys to play with while on vacation. 8)

 

[Wayno]

The JP sounded much more scooped to me, which i gotta admit, did satisfy my insatiable love of 80's metal. But with my now more mature ( yeah right) tonal requirements i did prefer the Mark V overall. It just seemed more agressive and up front. Nice vid, nice playing too. You got chops man. Keen em coming!

 

[bandit2013]

I think I had the right and left channels set properly..... Odd that my right and left channels on the PC are not working as I am getting the front an rear channel as left and right. JP-2C is supposed to be on the left and the Mark V on the right. Not sure if that is what anyone has heard in the video. OH well.

I am setting up for the Mark V 12AX7 to 12AT7 comparative video. WTF? I have all mesa tubes in the amp right now and it sounds incredible. No ice pick (I think my one repair on the Tone stack mod may have yielded some improvement, should have cut one leg vs removal and I did not have the same value cap at my disposal. I will go with the plan anyways and make the video and see how things pan out. Odd that the JP-2C was running a bit on the bright side but it could be the STR440 yellows that are allowing for more mustard in salad. Depends on what guitar I am using too. Mahogany set neck Carvin CT6M. Sweet guitar, too bad I threw it onto the drum set during my last jam session. That cymbal stand was not going to give and the finish on the headstock took the hit. Ouch, that guitar was mint, now it has some character to it. Lucky I did not gouge the neck anywhere. That is a good reminder always use a guitar stand and do not lean guitars on amps near the end as when I went to grab it I pushed it over giving it a huge shove while trying to correct for my mistake. I definitely said that four letter word starting with the letter F and it was sharp too. This time I will not need to add a display with small camera pointing on the switch track. Was planning on shelling the amp so I can swap tubes without having to wait for a cool down on the power tubes. Still was expecting a ear drum blowout though. Not this time. Perhaps it is more on par with what most Marks sound like so it is still relevant to do the video. This time in 4K HD, camera has 5.1 surround mic so may not have to kill the sound, just add in the recorded master and be done. Need a click track or something to sync the audio to the video. Never mind, I have a guitar for that. May have to bring out a few other guns like a Fender Dave Murray Strat, that one is bright enough to make my mother cry and she lives 580 miles away. I cannot take requests as I only know one or two songs. I am a slow learner and now an old dog so no new songs for me.

 

[bandit2013]

The lack of brightness with the stock tubes did not last for very long. Ouch. Hopefully the video that I am working on will at least reveal the truth for those who think it is just internet B.S. We do have some believers and this fact is spreading to other clubs and forums. You have started a revolutionary movement in the fight for tone APEMAN! It is almost like a religion and there are those that doubt the faith that a tube with lower gain would actually improve a high gain amp. Lack of understanding what a triode circuit is and how it works along with technology that has been in use long before I was born. Extreme also refers to Extreme ICE and gets worse if you use the preset on the GEQ. Waiting for the amp to cool down so I can swap some preamp tubes. This time, it appears the camera has an auto gain control, sort of compression for loud sources. I added three more microphones to the mix, SE Ribbon mic, EV RE320, and an Audix D6. I stuffed the EV and Audix mics into a foam cradle (this was material our sales people were tossing out from one of those formable interior sales cases and they did not need the foam cubes/ bricks so I asked if they did not mind if I were to take it. Knew I would have a use for it sooner or later. I guess that make me a trash picker.... The dog is pissed at me now. He will get over it.

 

[Markageddon]

Compare these vids against your extreme channel and your vid... Extreme gets used in all of these vids at some point.
Extreme does not equal ice pick per say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3MYn1qrbJs
]

Part II:


Mark V Part I:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehfp1jLDdpk

Mark V Part II: (The new one, I prefer the tones pulled off in this one)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHylt7aBqug

Mesa V25 Part III:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7epyD2QUm0E

Even in part 1 (which I think is the harshest, as its not working the power section too hard) I'd never describe it as that kind of Icepicky even at high gain. But yet I do hear what you mean with your amps (mainly the JP, accentuated maybe by it's modern scoop feel) in that vid you put up. And even with off axis angle micing like you used here..so must be quite a pronounced effect, if thats after a mic method known to tame things a bit in that area.
Yeah the preset EQ needs some diligent channel/gain setting up, to be used effectively. Low presence works best with that method in my experience thus far. But I rarely use preset. Almost always 'sliders' or 'sliders' off. Way better control there. As preset is a bit scooped/cutting Its best to not dial cutting dial settings too whilst its in use.

Also I think switching heads but keeping mic position on same cab for the comparisons would also work better, as theres too much variance here, listening and watching the setup. Thats where the switcher demo aspect made this more complicated. But since you were demoing the switch, job well done. Clearly works well....!

 

[bandit2013]

Yes, the dual cab approach is a bit complex. Not all mics are created equal as well as the speakers in each cabinet. I used the newest pair of cabinets that essentially sound the same.

As for Extreme mode, not icy with the 12AT7. However things do change with all stock tubes. At least with my Mark V, Extreme voice and preset typically resulted in glass shatter characteristics in the ear drum. The Vertical 212 cabinet does a fine job at taming that sound quality more so than an OS Recto slant front cab loaded with EVM12L Black label speakers. Sure that has more bottom end range than the vertical 212 but is not forgiving on the top end of the frequency spectrum. I would get the same effect if I ran the combo speaker as that is an EVM12L black label. The farther you place it off the ground the brighter it becomes. Point of reference or perspective. Odd that the 412 cab does not seem to have that effect as I have placed it on top of the Horizontal 212 cab. Too **** heavy to lift for setup. I chose the V30 cabs as that is what most would be using. At least the Vertical 212 would be a good reference vs an OS Recto 412 but many have that too. The mini project using only one cab did reveal some ice in Extreme voice but the recording after rendering compressed the top end so it sounds much better in the video than in reality. At least for this one, I zoomed in on the CH3 controls only. All was done in Pentode power mode. Took a while to synchronize the audio track with the video and once I got it without that reverberation effect if out of sync, I cut the audio from the video source and merged the rendered audio track with the video content. This is all microphone content, no cab clone (Mark V does not have it) or attenuation (could have done so but opted not this time). I have to admit that I am very impressed with the Focusrite preamp. When I do the next (comparing the JP-2C to the TC-100 I may use the cab clone and blend it with the mics using my soundcraft mixer. Still do not have a DAW program as I could do further editing to the sound on each mic channel from the soundcraft mixer. For now, I will have to settle on the TASCAM DP-32 recorder. I am rendering a HD version of the video, did a reduced size first and if the video quality of the conversion is the same I will use the smaller file size to share. It would take a long time to transfer a 4K file but since youtube converts the file to a max of 1080p or lower may just go with the smaller sized file. I captured the video under low light conditions last night as it is not very bright in the room even during the day time. I need to see if I can fine a longer HDMI cable for the small camera since taping it to the mic stand was not very useful as it will not zoom in on demo mode. I could always just do a PIP if I can manage to sync the audio in the video like I did with the 12AX7 vs 12AT7 project. Love the 4K camera though. Even the new Pinnacle program works quite well. (Always found video editing to be easy with Pinnacle vs others I have used in the past). Will see how things go. The X7 vs T7 I did adjust settings on the fly as best I could. I did not run gain to max on the X7 but I did with the T7 part. The video may not reveal the true nature of the beast as well as I would hope. Besides it has gotten boring to watch over and over again....No wonder why producers never watch their own movies, they have seen it a thousand times before releasing.

 

[bandit2013]

This video is too long for enjoyment but it starts with all Mesa 12AX7 tubes in the first half. Second half, I replaced the Mesa 12AX7 tube in V4 with a JAN/Phillips 12AT7. The top end may not be as brittle as it was in the room. Actually the amp did not sound all that bad this time. This is not a demo of my skills as I have none to share. More or less, it is a tone comparison to the JAN/Phillips 12AT7 and what it can do for you if you so desire to try it.

https://youtu.be/YN96iZnPEoM

 

[Markageddon]

I think that the way you're dialling is definitely inviting the brittle thing, if you don't mind me saying....

The high presence and high 6600, combined with dial section settings are a big part of it. Together with the thinness/lack of gain.
The amp sounds better with treb at like 4-5 o'clock and with gain up a bit, and the 6600 slider being at mid level, presence 11.
Boosting the 2200 helps fill in the high end in a nicer way, Certainly for the sorts of sounds that the riffs you play reflect the need for. You can add more lows to in the preamp before flub too with the AT7s. All great for getting smooth crystalline gain with the sort of sustain you're after for Glimore licks with delays too.
Rip roaring classy and smooth in the highs that way. Go ahead, try. You may be pleasantly surprised.
The 2nd MarkV vid shows these kinds of settings in action.

Alternatively, High sliders and presence real low 9 o'clock to off works to the same end, but offering a different flavour.
Hope this helps.

 

[bandit2013]

I think that the way you're dialling is definitely inviting the brittle thing, if you don't mind me saying....

The high presence and high 6600, combined with dial section settings are a big part of it. Together with the thinness/lack of gain.
The amp sounds better with treb at like 4-5 o'clock and with gain up a bit, and the 6600 slider being at mid level, presence 11.
Boosting the 2200 helps fill in the high end in a nicer way, Certainly for the sorts of sounds that the riffs you play reflect the need for. You can add more lows to in the preamp before flub too with the AT7s. All great for getting smooth crystalline gain with the sort of sustain you're after for Glimore licks with delays too.
Rip roaring classy and smooth in the highs that way. Go ahead, try. You may be pleasantly surprised.
The 2nd MarkV vid shows these kinds of settings in action.

Alternatively, High sliders and presence real low 9 o'clock to off works to the same end, but offering a different flavour.
Hope this helps.

As I said before, I did not have the brittlness this go around with all 12AX7 and was able to dial up the treble, gain and presence. Before I did any mods, it always sounded honky or too brittle even with the treble all the way off, gain at 9am, presence dialed out and the GEQ set differently. Now it is like it should be and was getting some really good tone from the amp with both tubes. I was also pushing the settings a bit more as the amp was just delivering what I wanted. I am actually pleased with the Mark V as it is now. I think the minor tweaks I did to the circuits helped tremendously. I was having fun with it. Not sure what to play when I made the recording, just did the tone made me think of. "Run like Hell" was the first time I tried to play it with delay and both parts at the same time. Generally I would play the one part and the other guitarist. Not perfect but is what it is. Usually play that song on my Carvin Bolt C (like a fender strat with a floyd rose, have one of those too). Nooding is the better term as was more focused on the tone and character of the amp that what I was playing.

 

[Markageddon]

I think that the way you're dialling is definitely inviting the brittle thing, if you don't mind me saying....

The high presence and high 6600, combined with dial section settings are a big part of it. Together with the thinness/lack of gain.
The amp sounds better with treb at like 4-5 o'clock and with gain up a bit, and the 6600 slider being at mid level, presence 11.
Boosting the 2200 helps fill in the high end in a nicer way, Certainly for the sorts of sounds that the riffs you play reflect the need for. You can add more lows to in the preamp before flub too with the AT7s. All great for getting smooth crystalline gain with the sort of sustain you're after for Glimore licks with delays too.
Rip roaring classy and smooth in the highs that way. Go ahead, try. You may be pleasantly surprised.
The 2nd MarkV vid shows these kinds of settings in action.

Alternatively, High sliders and presence real low 9 o'clock to off works to the same end, but offering a different flavour.
Hope this helps.

As I said before, I did not have the brittlness this go around with all 12AX7 and was able to dial up the treble, gain and presence. Before I did any mods, it always sounded honky or too brittle even with the treble all the way off, gain at 9am, presence dialed out and the GEQ set differently. Now it is like it should be and was getting some really good tone from the amp with both tubes. I was also pushing the settings a bit more as the amp was just delivering what I wanted. I am actually pleased with the Mark V as it is now. I think the minor tweaks I did to the circuits helped tremendously. I was having fun with it. Not sure what to play when I made the recording, just did the tone made me think of. "Run like Hell" was the first time I tried to play it with delay and both parts at the same time. Generally I would play the one part and the other guitarist. Not perfect but is what it is. Usually play that song on my Carvin Bolt C (like a fender strat with a floyd rose, have one of those too). Nooding is the better term as was more focused on the tone and character of the amp that what I was playing.

Sounded brittle to me. Just saying. May just be a taste thing, but the suggestion I made settingswise will objectively increase smoothness and sustain should you want it, is all..
Fair enough, if you're happy with it, thats the main thing.

 

[bandit2013]

Did it sound brittle with the 12AT7? The 12AX7 was brittle but not as it usually is. I could have taken a different approach and dialed in the amp differently for the 12AX7 part. It was on the bright side without having the headphones on but I did not get the shot noise effect, close but not quite there. That would have been different had I used either of the OS Recto 412 cabs or if I had run Extreme on the preset GEQ setting. Could be my hearing too. I did have the amp on the bright side on purpose to reveal if any, the differences between the 12AX7 and 12AT7. Yes I set the amp tone and GEQ with my eyes to start off which is the mistake of most who venture into the Mark V territory. I generally do not do this and use my ear for the set up, but it is not often I use the Mark V. My go to amps are the JP-2C or the TC-100 or 50.

 

[Markageddon]

Would have been all the more reason to have dialled up the treble and gain then, I would have thought, if you were after highlighting the dangerzone area for the icepick/fizz. The effect is more noticeably demonstrated at higher levels of gain.
Thats why I ramped up the gain in my vids and played metally stuff. If its ever gonna rear it's ugly head; its in that kind of situation, I think. The sound of the cascade changes also with those new diallable heights also.

New vid being done, btw: AT7'd Mark III and a friend's Mark IV that being brought over tonight also to be modded with the same tubes from the III. To be recorded in the same conditions as the last vids for comparison to the V/V:25.
Should be up tommorrow night.

 

[Markageddon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwS_EPO-99s - Mark IV Double 12at7 mod vid. Its a Mark IVB.
My friend (who's amp this is) plays a Suhr which is in frame as he does so. The rest of the shots are me with the V. Both guitars with their stock pick ups....

Tungsol in V1 and V2,
JJ ax7 in V3
Mesa 12 AT7s in V4 (second high gain stage) and V5 (phase inverter)

A variety of setups, triode, pentode, different presence vs treb and gain settings, class A and Simulclass power, etc Harmonics was constantly on though. And the selected different guitars test the range extensively.