Mark VII or Reissue C+?

[Jamme1961]

Looking for thoughts on this- I have an order in for C+ but the VII is same price.

 

[Shred FlintsTone]

Bump. And are the original 2C+'s noisy? Bcs if they are, I'd bet fiddy the new ones won't be, jus sayin, jus axin'

 

[sloanthebone]

No one knows the answer to this since the reissue isn’t out yet. If you need an amp now, the VII is fantastic and the used prices are great. If the reissue is not up to par, you should be able to get one 6 months after release for a really good price.

 

[bandit2013]

What @sloanthebone said. Too early to call. Are they any demo's of the reissue out yet? At least that would fire up the desires to get one. Surprised that this is only word of mouth and not on any of Mesa/Gibson websites. I have not called my Sweetwater sales engineer on the subject, but I believe it is a real thing.

Does anyone know what the IIC+ reissue is based on? DRG?, HRG? I assume it is an HRG. Have not seen any rear images of this reissue. If it is a DRG, will it use EL34/6CA7 + 6L6 like the originals? I only assume that as the Mark III Simul-Class models made use of that design, and the other assumption the MKIII was a continuation of the IIC+ in some way. I am aware that the IIC+ is the highly sought after model scoring some very high sale prices compared to the MKIII. Sorry if I am ignorant on the subject.

If it is HRG, is that not what the JP2C was all about? OK, I get it, the IIC+ had a few more controls to tailor the characteristic of the amp whereas the JP2C made use of fix voltage dividers as a preset condition to take place of the first volume control to reduce the number of knobs and space (I assume). I never played through a IIC+ so my reference is only based on the discussion that was talked about in Mesa videos and such. Closest I ever got to that was the Mark III blue stripe. Still that was different as it was Simul-Class and not a Class AB 100W amp.

Just for a reference, I have both Mark VII and JP2C. I personally favor the Mark VII for its versatility but still the JP2C has its place for simplicity. The only benefit of the JP2C is you have two channels of IIC+ to choose from. Too bad they did not clone the IIC+ mode on the Mark VII on CH2 as that would have been ideal. Who needs two FAT cleans and two crunch modes? Similar in some ways but not similar in others. Mark VII is a bit brighter and the JP2C is a bit darker in overall tone. You will have to consider this is a step backwards when channel separation was not a thing. Nothing wrong with that at all.

However, I can hear the complaints already (Based on the Badlander comments)

• It does not have midi, it is only two channels and it needs three.
• Need to redial the controls for the clean (that was my experience with the Mark III).
• Blah, blah, blah.

I do have some interest in the IIC+ reissue but would rather wait and see how it turns out, which of course will be too late to get one. If I do not get one, that is ok with me. I have plenty of Mesa amps to keep me happy.

I hope that Mesa pulls it off and brings out a killer amp.

Here is a comparison video of the Mark VII, Mark IIC+(from the 80's) and a JP2C. The sound was re-amped into each amp based on how it was recorded. That sort of hides the differences too much. I am sure there are other videos of this nature out there.



Here is one that only compares the Mark VII to the IIC+.



As it was stated in the last video, the IIC+ does provide a wider range on the gain structure of the amp since that is what volume 1 will do. The Mark III had that as well. What was missing on the front was the presence control, that was on the back of the amp.

The Mark VII basically has 7 gain structures to choose from. Yeah, the clean and fat can be dialed in with some nice grind character. IIB is a bit reserved and very bold so bass and midrange will need to be adjusted to make use of it. Sure, the crunch and VII modes are similar to having a Badlander packed into the amp as they are quite similar but different due to the tone stack driver circuits. Still a post gain location and the other modes have the tone stack in a pre-gain position. The Badlander crunch and crush will have a bit more compression than the Mark VII as the tone stack driver is a DC coupled cathode follower circuit similar to the Dual Rectifier. I would have to say the Mark VII IIC+ mode is much the same as the JP2C CH2 as I have slaved the Mark VII into the JP2C and it sounded identical. What is missing from the JP2C and the IIC+ amps, Mark IV mode which is probably the most aggressive mode on the Mark VII as it has much more gain than the IIC+ mode.

JP2C does share some added features with its two IIC+ channels. CH2 is what it is IIC+ with pulls on the gain and presence so you can tailor the gain structure to match up with whatever cab you are using. CH3 is more of the same but with a shift in the gain structure. It does get a little closer to the Mark VII in the IV mode but not quite there. The Clean channel on the JP is more difficult to get into clipping, it can be pushed with the midrange control but not as aggressive as the clean and fat will get with the gain pushed on the Mark VII.

I will end by saying the Mark VII and JP2C are excellent amps. Not sure how they would compare to a IIC+ reissue.

 

[Jamme1961]

What @sloanthebone said. Too early to call. Are they any demo's of the reissue out yet? At least that would fire up the desires to get one. Surprised that this is only word of mouth and not on any of Mesa/Gibson websites. I have not called my Sweetwater sales engineer on the subject, but I believe it is a real thing.

Does anyone know what the IIC+ reissue is based on? DRG?, HRG? I assume it is an HRG. Have not seen any rear images of this reissue. If it is a DRG, will it use EL34/6CA7 + 6L6 like the originals? I only assume that as the Mark III Simul-Class models made use of that design, and the other assumption the MKIII was a continuation of the IIC+ in some way. I am aware that the IIC+ is the highly sought after model scoring some very high sale prices compared to the MKIII. Sorry if I am ignorant on the subject.

If it is HRG, is that not what the JP2C was all about? OK, I get it, the IIC+ had a few more controls to tailor the characteristic of the amp whereas the JP2C made use of fix voltage dividers as a preset condition to take place of the first volume control to reduce the number of knobs and space (I assume). I never played through a IIC+ so my reference is only based on the discussion that was talked about in Mesa videos and such. Closest I ever got to that was the Mark III blue stripe. Still that was different as it was Simul-Class and not a Class AB 100W amp.

Just for a reference, I have both Mark VII and JP2C. I personally favor the Mark VII for its versatility but still the JP2C has its place for simplicity. The only benefit of the JP2C is you have two channels of IIC+ to choose from. Too bad they did not clone the IIC+ mode on the Mark VII on CH2 as that would have been ideal. Who needs two FAT cleans and two crunch modes? Similar in some ways but not similar in others. Mark VII is a bit brighter and the JP2C is a bit darker in overall tone. You will have to consider this is a step backwards when channel separation was not a thing. Nothing wrong with that at all.

However, I can hear the complaints already (Based on the Badlander comments)

• It does not have midi, it is only two channels and it needs three.
• Need to redial the controls for the clean (that was my experience with the Mark III).
• Blah, blah, blah.

I do have some interest in the IIC+ reissue but would rather wait and see how it turns out, which of course will be too late to get one. If I do not get one, that is ok with me. I have plenty of Mesa amps to keep me happy.

I hope that Mesa pulls it off and brings out a killer amp.

Here is a comparison video of the Mark VII, Mark IIC+(from the 80's) and a JP2C. The sound was re-amped into each amp based on how it was recorded. That sort of hides the differences too much. I am sure there are other videos of this nature out there.



Here is one that only compares the Mark VII to the IIC+.



As it was stated in the last video, the IIC+ does provide a wider range on the gain structure of the amp since that is what volume 1 will do. The Mark III had that as well. What was missing on the front was the presence control, that was on the back of the amp.

The Mark VII basically has 7 gain structures to choose from. Yeah, the clean and fat can be dialed in with some nice grind character. IIB is a bit reserved and very bold so bass and midrange will need to be adjusted to make use of it. Sure, the crunch and VII modes are similar to having a Badlander packed into the amp as they are quite similar but different due to the tone stack driver circuits. Still a post gain location and the other modes have the tone stack in a pre-gain position. The Badlander crunch and crush will have a bit more compression than the Mark VII as the tone stack driver is a DC coupled cathode follower circuit similar to the Dual Rectifier. I would have to say the Mark VII IIC+ mode is much the same as the JP2C CH2 as I have slaved the Mark VII into the JP2C and it sounded identical. What is missing from the JP2C and the IIC+ amps, Mark IV mode which is probably the most aggressive mode on the Mark VII as it has much more gain than the IIC+ mode.

JP2C does share some added features with its two IIC+ channels. CH2 is what it is IIC+ with pulls on the gain and presence so you can tailor the gain structure to match up with whatever cab you are using. CH3 is more of the same but with a shift in the gain structure. It does get a little closer to the Mark VII in the IV mode but not quite there. The Clean channel on the JP is more difficult to get into clipping, it can be pushed with the midrange control but not as aggressive as the clean and fat will get with the gain pushed on the Mark VII.

I will end by saying the Mark VII and JP2C are excellent amps. Not sure how they would compare to a IIC+ reissue.

Thanks killer post!

 

[bandit2013]

I am eager to see the IIC+ Reissue. I think it would be cool to get one. Much more affordable than what you see on the used market these days. Sort of makes me wonder what transformers it will have. Mesa could use either PT that are used in the JP or Mark VII. Not sure about the OT though. I doubt they are the same since one is Simul-Class and the other is Class A/B.

Here is the Mark VII rear view.

The PT on the JP2C just looks a bit different. I did not count stack-up on the number of plates. Different color in the coating to protect the steel laminations but I believe they measure about the same. The ink came off of the tubes during handling. They are the STR415. The Mark VII comes with the STR445 (JJ 6L6GC tubes). TBH, they sound great, even in the JP2C. I would not doubt that is what they may end up using in the IIC+ reissue. Just a wild guess. Either that or they will be the STR443 or STR448. This is just speculation.

When you see them side by side, it tends to create an optical illusion that one is larger than the other although they measure to be about the same size.

Sort of curious what type of cooling fan it will have. The 120VAC box fan or 12V DC computer fan. Either way, I am sure it will kick some butt like the Mark I King Snake. Different but those that bought them like them.

End of month is not soon enough. I could get on the preorder list but not. I am what you call a procrastinator.

 

[soloistthree]

Most important difference for OP is that the VII will be the better amp for performance, no question. Also, for ease of recording. The IIC+ is seriously limited in functionality, but then it's also one of the most iconic amps of all time. Personally, if I'm a working musician looking for the best tool, VII all the way. If you've already got your live rig sorted out and want your chance on probably the most accurate IIC+ tone with the full vintage vibe, get the IIC+. I highly doubt that the difference in the IIC+ mode on the VII and JP2C would differ enough to be worth the lack of modern functionality/features. The main reason I got on the list is just that, I have always wanted a chance to own a real IIC+ and this is like having a time-machine. Do I actually think I'll like it more than my VII? Not really.

 

[rarebitusa]

Personally, if I'm a working musician looking for the best tool, VII all the way. If you've already got your live rig sorted out and want your chance on probably the most accurate IIC+ tone with the full vintage vibe, get the IIC+. I highly doubt that the difference in the IIC+ mode on the VII and JP2C would differ enough to be worth the lack of modern functionality/features.

Yea, my IIC+ is an amazing and totally unique amp. Every once in a while I bring it to rehearsal and it's a boatload of fun. But my other modern Mesas are so much more gig friendly and versatile. Do I notice the tonal difference live, yea a bit. Does it matter in a live mix? Not really. My bandmates TBH don't seem to notice my amp tone or care... but F'ups catch their attention. Maybe there's a slim chance some hardcore Mesa guy in the crowd would say your IIC+ tone is really not that authentic. But that hasn't happened yet.

IMHO What is more important is that your rig sounds good to you and inspires your playing.

 

[danielpasco]

IMHO What is more important is that your rig sounds good to you and inspires your playing.

Truer words were never spoken

 

[Jamme1961]

Truer words were never spoken

Amen - that’s it right there

 

[bandit2013]

I would stick with the plan and get the IIC+ if it is a limited run. The Mark VII will still be available to get later on. I am almost considering getting on the list myself. Will have to call my Sweetwater engineer to get in on it. Besides that, I already have the STR415 tubes. Why not right? I can run the STR445 or STR440 in the JP2C. Now I have GAS. Thanks.

 

[frontline205]

Since there seems to be so many members with 415 tubes laying around anybody looking to sell some so I can try them out in the reissue

 

[MaceFremonti]

Since there seems to be so many members with 415 tubes laying around anybody looking to sell some so I can try them out in the reissue

I just ordered some from Mesa, they still have some left....now if I could just find some Mesa labeled STR-416s!

 

[frontline205]

I just ordered some from Mesa, they still have some left....now if I could just find some Mesa labeled STR-416s!

how much they charge for you them?

 

[bandit2013]

Hold your horses on the STR416 unless you have a DRG Mark III or IIC+. I got some information on the IIC+ Reissue.
It is a DRG but not what you think it is. Not an integrated quad like the IIC+ or III DRG models. Power section is based on the Mark VII. Runs all 6L6GC tubes. 75W/25W power modes. TBH, the 25W triode mode of the Mark VII is really good. I have been running that more than I expected too. I assume the 50W on the other pair is in pentode mode. So it will still have the blend of pentode/triode which is what Simul-Class is based upon. Other than that, the preamp should be as close as Mesa can get to the real deal. The Mark VII is basically there just does not have the single row of controls and the additional gain control (volume 1). I am going to wait and see how it turns out first. May be a good amp to add to my collection of things.

STR415 will cost around $550 for a full quad (does not include taxes or shipping). That is what I paid for them last July 2023. Not sure what the cost is now. Also, you have to make the purchase by email to customer service at mesa boogie. Trying to call it in, they will tell you the parts you are looking for do not exist. They are not cataloged in the system. Reason why they are not listed in the tubes section on the store.

 

[frontline205]

Hold your horses on the STR416 unless you have a DRG Mark III or IIC+. I got some information on the IIC+ Reissue.
It is a DRG but not what you think it is. Not an integrated quad like the IIC+ or III DRG models. Power section is based on the Mark VII. Runs all 6L6GC tubes. 75W/25W power modes. TBH, the 25W triode mode of the Mark VII is really good. I have been running that more than I expected too. I assume the 50W on the other pair is in pentode mode. So it will still have the blend of pentode/triode which is what Simul-Class is based upon. Other than that, the preamp should be as close as Mesa can get to the real deal. The Mark VII is basically there just does not have the single row of controls and the additional gain control (volume 1). I am going to wait and see how it turns out first. May be a good amp to add to my collection of things.

STR415 will cost around $550 for a full quad (does not include taxes or shipping). That is what I paid for them last July 2023. Not sure what the cost is now. Also, you have to make the purchase by email to customer service at mesa boogie. Trying to call it in, they will tell you the parts you are looking for do not exist. They are not cataloged in the system. Reason why they are not listed in the tubes section on the store.

Ah cool. So does that mean the reissue cant run 6L6/EL34 or it's just not quite the same way as the older ones?

 

[MaceFremonti]

how much they charge for you them?

$550

 

[Fastforded]

Hard to believe they made a reissue

 

[bandit2013]

Ah cool. So does that mean the reissue cant run 6L6/EL34 or it's just not quite the same way as the older ones?

I can only assume that is the case with the new amp. No other information except what I was told by Sweetwater, It is a DRG 75W/25W using all 6L6GC tubes. I would not doubt they will be the STR445 as those sound sic in the Mark VII. Couple that with the IIC+ preamp with all of its controls and you will have a beast. The power section of the Mark VII is no slouch either, best sounding Mesa amp I have ever owned. That includes the Mark III DRG blue stripe and the Mark IVB. Not sure what other amenities they will add into this amp. I sure hope they have some combined footswitch so you do not have to deal with three small aluminum pedals like I did with the Mark III (that was a PITA if you know what that means). Actually, if you are buying the IIC+ you are more or less after the legendary sound of the lead drive circuit than you would be for a clean channel. That is how I see it. Sight unseen and no documentation to look at. Anybody catch a view of the user manual? Sometimes they become available early now that the cat is out of the bag. I expect that will be released at end of the month which I assume was the timeline of an official announcement. Nothing on Mesa's website yet.

 

[bandit2013]

Heck, may as well jump on it. I have been debating if I should or not. May be the last chance I get while I can still afford to get it. Wonder how it will pair up with an EVM12L. If it is anything like the Mark VII and JP2C then it would be gold. Getting the head version. I am so undecided but that voice in my head is saying Just Do it. Was not expecting to be GAS'd up like this.