Mark V or Badlander

[Corrupted123]

Hi all

Based in UK I am about ready to push the button on a Mesa amp after a long time of wanting one.

I thought the Mark V was the one until I have been watching the recent videos of the Badlander. Unfortunately being in the UK there are not currently many (or any) places where I can try out both therefore looking for your good advice.

I have previously played, gigged, recorded mainly with Randall amps (rock/metal). Specifically I have been used to the Randall T2 that has been my main rig for the last 10 years. It’s not a beautiful sounding amp in clean mode but it’s an absolute sledge hammer hybrid solid state 400 watt monster on the overdrive channel. The tightness is superb and bottom end pushes air from the cab like nothing else.

I previously tried a dual rectifier about 15 years ago but found it a bit buzzy, loose and not very tight (for my liking). The videos I have seen on this Badlander sound good (Ola).

I’m looking for something that I can play tight heavy crunch with (main priority), good, nice, lush cleans and the ability to experiment a bit/find my own tone.

I like how simple the Badlander looks and hope that the limited dials (compared to Mark V) still offer versitility. I DO have concerns it may not be as tight as I’d like it and that I’ve been spoilt by the Randall in terms of tight sound.

The Mark V looks and sounds great and believe it will be as tight as the Randall, but is it too fussy for anything other than home playing or studio recording?

All your opinions I welcome to help me make my decision. It’s been a long time coming but looking forward to owning a Mesa for the first time soon.

Which one? Please help. Mark V or Badlander (90/100 watt heads)?

Many thanks

 

[Markedman]

You'll never ever get a tube amp to be as tight as a Solid State amp, that's the trade off for the feel and harmonic texture people talk about after playing a tube amp. Dimebag talked about that all the time because he was asked that question, all the time. I've owned a Mark V before, it was great but it wasn't better than my JP2C. I went to try and possibly buy a Badlander but the store was sold out.

I'd get a JP2C if you are mainly playing heavier music. 2nd place would be the Badlander.

 

[Corrupted123]

Hi Markedman
Thanks for your feedback.

I know what you’re saying about the tightness of the solid state. Downside of the Randall is that it lacks brightness and can be more difficult to cut through a mix as easy as say some of the demos I’ve seen on YouTube with Badlander, Mark V etc. Also got to say, the tones I’ve heard online of both Mark V and Badlander sound very tight and think would be happy with those!

JP2C - you’ve actually made my choice more difficult in suggesting that . I have checked it out and said to myself that I will NOT go for the JP2C as it’s based on the IIC+ and in my head the tones I would be drawn to would be quickly attributed to Metallica, of which I’ve no problem, big fan, however I THOUGHT that the Mark V would be more versatile covering the different Mark amps. Am I being stupid??
If the JP2C just sounds plain better than Mk V from everyone with experience then I can’t argue with that?

Badlander looks and sounds good. Anyone with experience of one in here?
Is Badlander versatile enough for trying different tones?
How does it compare to Mark V or JP2C?
Is the Mark V going to be tighter sounding than the Badlander?

Help! As I say, I’m not in a position to try these out before I put deposit down.

 

[mace]

If you gig keep on mind the big Mark V and JP2c+ have 3 channels. For me this is a good thing to have 3 channels since my band plays about ‘everything under the sun’ and I’m not a big pedal guy. Although, two channels and liberal use of the guitar volume knob can also give good results.

Not to complicate your decision, but a recto with a tubescreamer out front seems to be the cats meow for some folks who play heavy music but want to keep the bottom end nice and tight. There are youtube videos galore, also comparing this config to a Badlander. Some have theorized that mesa just built in a tubescreamer-like circuit into the Badlander to tighten it up.

Anyway, rock on. Choices choices!

 

[Corrupted123]

The rectifier I tried years ago I thought sounded poor. It was so loose and sloppy and for every chug there was a wobble and fizz left after it. I genuinely felt disappointed. As someone has said, maybe it’s because I’ve come from solid state.
The videos I see that you mention with tube screamers etc are where people are seriously cranking super high gain through them but I hear no UNIQUE tone, just very good quality overdriven rock/metal.

I have seen a few Badlander videos where folk are playing through at heavy gain (but not excessive to me and my liking) and it seems to sound tight. I actually prefer the package of the Badlander with its integrated IR, simplicity, feel and sound ‘out the box’.

I’m coming to the conclusion though that the Mark V is going to sound tighter with a more mid scooped sound by having the additional onboard eq. Is that right?

For the Mark V, If you play rock/metal is too hard to escape the Metallica/Lamb of God stigma?
Is the Mark V reliable long term? Seems a lot more complex than Badlander.

Sorry folks. Won’t be long before I’ve made my choice I promise. JP2C is out the running FYR.

 

[CoG]

I sat down with a badlander for about 90 minutes several weeks ago and it was a nice hard rock/metal amp but I didn't see any compelling reason to go with it over, like, anything else. The EVH 5150 III is way more versatile and sounds great for like 25 to 40 per cent less money, ditto a Revv G20 if you're not gigging. The Badlander is even getting into Friedman territory price-wise.

A regular 2ch or 3ch recto that can be had for a lot cheaper used is a *lot* more versatile tonally as well. You probably have some pretty good choices from Engl over there, too.

if you absolutely must have a Mesa, save yourself a bucketload of money and just get a used Recto with a $100 boost pedal. Go to metal shows (well, prior to this year anyway.) what do you see on stage? rectos with boosts.

The only Mark V I have played much was a v:35 which I didn't like at all because the power section just sounded like it was working too hard all the time. I've never heard anyone make a full size Mark V sound bad.

 

[Corrupted123]

I think I’ve decided.
Going to go for the Badlander. As excellent as the Mark V looks and sounds, I don’t think I would use half the tones available on it. Got to admit the complexity of it also makes me concerned about longevity although these have been around a long time already so probably not justified.

Having searched extensively on both amps (and others) I have to say that finding someone playing through and capturing raw sound that you can feel the amp and the air being pushed from the speaker hasn’t been that easy as a lot of videos are either processed production sounds or mono SM57 sounds.

This guy playing in a store with presumably his camera phone I think shows how tight sounding this Badlander is. I Like it! And love the cleans too.

https://youtu.be/9DSiZYkFNY4

Order being placed tomorrow (unless I change my mind again tomorrow morning )

 

[Corrupted123]

Done it!
Ordered Badlander 100watt head and a 2x12 rectifier cab.
The cab will be used in my home studio. Any gigs I can use my Randall 4x12.

Cannot wait. Should be arriving end of June.
Hurry up Mesa!

 

[bandit2013]

Sure this is late... and you are committed based on your purchase.
I think you made a good choice. The Badlander 100W is a performer in all respects. I have found the BAD with the stock EL34 tubes is very comparable to the JP-2C. When running at a bedroom level, the JP-2C seems to enhance the low end and looses more top end where as the Badlander does not do this. I found at bedroom level it sounds more like the TC-100 without using the attenuator.

Crush is similar to the JP-2C CH3 and can be a good match for CH2. Moderate gain setting on crunch is also great on either channel.
Tone controls actually work and seem to react about the same as the JP-2C. I have been able to do all of the tone stack tricks with the Badlander as I can with the JP-2C.

As for the Mark V90W version, that amp is a bit of a novelty based on the control panel settings. Mark I, Mark IIC+, Mark IV. I have been more fond of the CH2 crunch and Mark I voices on the V. CH3 IIC+ is a bit weak, Mark IV mode is good enough, extreme is also great. I found the V to be very brittle at best. I have played other MKV and they sounded much better but still had that upper midrange that is difficult to dial out even with the 5BGEQ. I have not tried either of the V:25 or V:35.

I find the Recto amps tend to be sub harmonic drone machines. They work great for most purposes and sound better if you dial out all of the bass. Depends on what it is you want from it. Single coil, Stratocasters do sound good through the Multi-watt though. Palm muting can prove to be difficult but manageable. JP-2C is much tighter and a bit on the dry side so it works well as does the TC-50. Badlander also fits this characteristic.

For singing lead playing, Badlander can do this just as well as the JP-2C. Use the crush voice for that. Crunch is more, crunch. Once you figure out the amp, you will find out that you get more from the amp when you start using the volume control on your guitar. I sort of adopted that trick after getting the JP-2C as well as with the Multi-Watt dual Rec. Also a must if you own a Royal Atlantic. Badlander gain characteristic will behave similar to the JP-2C.

If you are big on effects and need to silence them. It may be to your advantage to get some aids for your pedal board like a hard bypass or a multi-effect device that can select what you want and also have a bypass feature. The FX loop is always active on the Badlander. Sort of like the Royal Atlantic and JP-2C, no way to turn it off. (JP-2C has that as a midi function but footswitch is lacking a button to control it).

I am actually looking to get another Badlander 100W so I can complete a stereo setup. Since I got mine, I have not been playing through my others. Perhaps the honeymoon is not over yet. Took a while for me to slip away from the JP-2C. Badlander is different but in a good way.

 

[pulteney]

Cannot wait. Should be arriving end of June.
Hurry up Mesa!

Still waiting? Calendar says June the 30th

 

[Corrupted123]

I will be waiting a whole while longer. There is a delay getting them into EU/UK. I wasn’t best pleased having waited a few months already but had a call from Mesa and had a good conversation with them. I was impressed with the customer service and the enthusiasm they had, therefore kept my deposit in place.
Looking forward to getting it eventually!

 

[bandit2013]

I will be waiting a whole while longer. There is a delay getting them into EU/UK. I wasn’t best pleased having waited a few months already but had a call from Mesa and had a good conversation with them. I was impressed with the customer service and the enthusiasm they had, therefore kept my deposit in place.
Looking forward to getting it eventually!

Did you ever get it? Just curious if it met your expectations.

 

[Tanax]

Did you ever get it? Just curious if it met your expectations.

If he bought new, I doubt he got it. Mesa haven't been available in Europe for over 2 years now. On their Instagram, they are saying that they will come back to Europe after summer, but at this point, I would not get my hopes up yet. Also worth keeping in mind is that the prices since 2021 have gone up substantially so if you were previously pondering buying one for $3k, it is now probably quite a bit more expensive.

 

[bandit2013]

I was looking at some of the other comments by the OP. JP2C may be based off of the IIC+ but to me that amp does not come off as Metallica base, the Mark IV was used with most of their creations. So, with that in mind, think of Dream Theater, considering the John Petrucci IIC+ is his signature amp. The JP2C has a wide range of use and responds extremely well to different guitar, pickups and such. Great pedal platform and awesome on its own. The Badlander is a modern Rectifier but without the sub-harmonic overtones. Not buzzy or fizzy like the Rectifier amps before it. Sounds really good with 6L6 tubes as I have two BADS and compared them side by side with 6L6 and EL34. I am not sure which I like best.

In tightness, the JP2C and Badlander are similar. Gain structure is also similar but different circuits. When pushing to gig level, the differences will come out. BAD is more of a refined and modernized Marshall 2204 but only better. I would say it is on par with the Royal Atlantic loaded with some select NOS tubes. There is more low-end on the JP2C at reduced volume running 100W compared to the BAD. At gig level is where the JP shows its awesomeness. BAD I can run at any volume level and get what I like at any volume running at 100W. As for that kick in the pants feel, I can easily get there with the JP2C and a 412 cab. The BAD is just a little different. If you need that chest pounding compression the 412 cab is the way to get there. I am mostly running Vertical 212 cabs as I have my gear set up in a small room.

Either way, it is a win if you choose one over the other. I have both but the JP2C was bought long before the price hikes and component shortages. I got it when it first came out. Same with the first BAD. The second BAD cost me more. I paid about the same price for the 2nd BAD as I did for the JP2C back in 2016.

 

[chris osborne]

Sure this is late... and you are committed based on your purchase.
I think you made a good choice. The Badlander 100W is a performer in all respects. I have found the BAD with the stock EL34 tubes is very comparable to the JP-2C. When running at a bedroom level, the JP-2C seems to enhance the low end and looses more top end where as the Badlander does not do this. I found at bedroom level it sounds more like the TC-100 without using the attenuator.

Crush is similar to the JP-2C CH3 and can be a good match for CH2. Moderate gain setting on crunch is also great on either channel.
Tone controls actually work and seem to react about the same as the JP-2C. I have been able to do all of the tone stack tricks with the Badlander as I can with the JP-2C.

As for the Mark V90W version, that amp is a bit of a novelty based on the control panel settings. Mark I, Mark IIC+, Mark IV. I have been more fond of the CH2 crunch and Mark I voices on the V. CH3 IIC+ is a bit weak, Mark IV mode is good enough, extreme is also great. I found the V to be very brittle at best. I have played other MKV and they sounded much better but still had that upper midrange that is difficult to dial out even with the 5BGEQ. I have not tried either of the V:25 or V:35.

I find the Recto amps tend to be sub harmonic drone machines. They work great for most purposes and sound better if you dial out all of the bass. Depends on what it is you want from it. Single coil, Stratocasters do sound good through the Multi-watt though. Palm muting can prove to be difficult but manageable. JP-2C is much tighter and a bit on the dry side so it works well as does the TC-50. Badlander also fits this characteristic.

For singing lead playing, Badlander can do this just as well as the JP-2C. Use the crush voice for that. Crunch is more, crunch. Once you figure out the amp, you will find out that you get more from the amp when you start using the volume control on your guitar. I sort of adopted that trick after getting the JP-2C as well as with the Multi-Watt dual Rec. Also a must if you own a Royal Atlantic. Badlander gain characteristic will behave similar to the JP-2C.

If you are big on effects and need to silence them. It may be to your advantage to get some aids for your pedal board like a hard bypass or a multi-effect device that can select what you want and also have a bypass feature. The FX loop is always active on the Badlander. Sort of like the Royal Atlantic and JP-2C, no way to turn it off. (JP-2C has that as a midi function but footswitch is lacking a button to control it).

I am actually looking to get another Badlander 100W so I can complete a stereo setup. Since I got mine, I have not been playing through my others. Perhaps the honeymoon is not over yet. Took a while for me to slip away from the JP-2C. Badlander is different but in a good way.

Many of the videos I've heard, the lead tone does sound very Mark like to me. Smooth and fluid! Glad to hear this is actually the case.

 

[bandit2013]

I also had a chance to run the latest Mesa tube, STR446 EL34. Just a bit different than the STR447 in the BAD. I actually like them. Had to go back to the STR447 as the other BAD has those as well. I could get another set of the STR446 so I have some on hand.

Not only does the amp have a good sound on leads, it seems to follow the JP2C tone density rule, no mater how much gain you dial in, it retains note definition. I was comparing the BAD to the Mark VII not too long ago. Crunch vs crunch and crush vs VII modes. Totally different circuits but very close on characteristics. the BAD has more note definition than the Mark VII. Will have to try some other power tubes in the MKVII and see if that changes anything. Would that be a difference between Class A/B and Simul-Class? Sure, one is running with 6L6 and the other with EL34. I definitely got hooked into the EL34 power tubes. Just something about them sounds good to me. Just not the same thing running them in an amp primarily set up for 6L6GC with a bias switch for EL34. The same could be said about running 6L6GC tubes in an amp primarily set up for EL34 with a bias switch for 6L6GC. It works but just does not give you the goods you get when using the primary tube vs the alternate type.

 

[bandit2013]

OK, a re-visit on the subject. Assume they are available in Europe, no doubt the price point with the tariffs and other fees would bring the price point to unaffordable range, The Mark V, Mark VII or Badlander would the on the table. Since the V and VII are 90W, to be in the same power range the Badlander 100 would be the choice.

What do I feel is better in terms of overall sound quality? The Mark V90 has been around for some time starting in 2009. It is outdated in many ways and not the best of the best in terms of a Mark amp is concerned. At least the one I have (made in 2012) never lived up to my expectations of what a Mark amp should be. It could be the year it was made. I have played other V90 made after 2014 and thought they sounded better, still not what I would expect a flagship to sound like. Now Mesa has the Mark VII as its new flagship model for the Mark series. It is under the price point of the JP2C which to me is the pinnacle of a modern Mark amp and what it should sound like. I do not want to fathom the cost of the JP2C let alone any of the amps abroad due to price hikes with taxes and such. Sorry to bring that up.

In my personal opinion, I feel the Badlander has the best overall sound quality. It is on par with the JP2C, meaning it retains detail or note definition at stupidly high gain settings which is a surprise. The sound detail comes through. Sure it is EL34 based but do not let that fool you, it is all guts and glory in delivery of sound you would almost thing it was loaded with 6L6GC tubes. Any hints of the EL34 characteristics we are familiar with, if there is such, it goes unnoticed. I am impressed with the Badlander 100 beyond words just as I am with the JP2C with the STR415 power tubes on board.

Were does the Mark VII fall in? It comes close to the JP2C on the IIC+ and IV modes (similar to JP CH3) That basically set the bar high on the rating for the amp. Much more detailed and convincing for the IIC+ and IV modes than what I found with the Mark V90. This would be the in-the-room experience, not based on recorded sounds as that can be misleading to what the amp actually sounds like. Now for the crunch and VII modes, I found it to be a really good match to the Badlaner crunch and crush modes. There is some similarity of the Mark V90 ch3 extreme mode too. The crunch mode on CH2 is also similar but different. What I like about the Mark VII is it feels like having three amps compacted into one units, Fender like cleans with clean and fat. I really like the clean modes on this amp. Crunch and VII is like having the Badlander on board. Even the CH1 clean gets close to the Badlander clean and becomes more of a match when pushing the gain up to get the clean into clipping. The MKVII will not cover the full range of grind on the clean mode like you can dial in on the Badlaner but it sounds very convincing. As I mentioned before, three amps, the thrid amp would be the JP2C CH2 and CH3 has very close traits to the IIC+ and IV modes. That was great to hear such amazing characteristics from a single amp. Finally Mesa managed to build a diamond with many facets of different amps. the IIB is interesting, do not use it like a IIC+ or IV lead, it is a bit different. Sounds really good as an alternate clean. Even better with single coil instruments. Do not expect that mode to be a chuggers favorite. The overall circuit will be similar to the actual IIB so you are getting a fourth amp on top. There are only 7 unique modes so it would be like having 7 different amps compacted into one. Two modes are repeated (fat and crunch). All of the modes are quite usable for what ever you can imagine them to be used. Figuring it all out is the hard part. I am still working through the amp and all of its modes. The only thing I noticed would be in the tone density aspect. The Badlander and JP2C have more note definition but this could be relative to the bias color of the tubes that are in the Mark VII. Mine came equipped with green STR445 tubes. Simul-Class extended Class A positions will have more tube saturation compared to the outer pair running in the Class A/B mode. I will be exploring the power tube combinations as I have some STR445 tubes in a lower bias color (yellow). Want to see if there is any difference.

As for the Mark V90, It could use some upgrades like a midi control for the channel changes. I have had many issues with the old school method used for channel selection with the footswitch. It does not always work properly. It was problematic from the start, so I did not use it much and just left the amp on one channel. Tone wise or sound quality may vary depending on the year the amp was made. I feel the Mark V90 gets closer to the Mark VII or Badlander when not using the FX loop. Still it has some differences in tone delivery. CH3 has a different tune to it compared to the VII or JP. The IIC+ and IV modes are good but not close enough to what I feel they represent. I did have a Mark IVb and that sounded different and not at all like the IV mode on the V90. Crunch is really good, Mark I mode is interesting. Edge can be icey but with proper preamp tubes it sounds great. Clean, fat and tweed are also good too. CH3 extreme mode is quite different, change in configuration of the presence negative feedback circuit (adds in some capacitance and changes to the 4 ohm tap) brings out a unique voice on CH3 that reminds me of the Modern voice of a dual rectifier. One could say it sounds similar to the VII mode on the Mark VII, just different in this volume change and delivery of sound. I would say that mode would be my favorite on the Mark V90, Extreme is just good but can be tiring at times. It is like the amp was sleeping in the other modes and finally wakes up in Extreme. It is basically the Mark IV mode with a change in negative feed back from the output transformer to the phase inverter. At least the Mark amps use a real presence control, unlike the dual rectifier, the only time the presence is part of the negative feedback is in modern mode, the other modes use the presence as a high pass filter, and the negative feed back is a fixed circuit and is no longer connected to the presence control.

I personally would choose the Badlander but that is me. the Mark VII is great too. I would have to try out the most recent Mark V90 to see if any changes in tone and character could be heard, I probably would never buy another V90 though. Never tried one of the V:25 or V:35. I probably would consider the Bad 50 or the mini BAD25. That may be a better comparison, which is better V:25 or BAD:25? V:35 or BAD:50? I think the BAD50 would be tops, the 25W models would be hard to choose from. Just guessing.

 

[Corrupted123]

Well, yesterday it finally arrived!

VERY pleased with it!

The sound and feel I can only describe as full, rich and very tight. Compared to the Randall T2 I’m am finding the Badlander is actually tighter because the mids punch through, and the attack when playing percussive is right upfront.

It’s a joy to play and very inspiring.

The 3 modes are also perfect.
The Clean is bright and full, Crunch adds a nice level of dirt to the tone and Crush is just the right level of gain.

Finding the amp very easy to dial in a desired tone.

Pleased I held out. I was very close to buying a Badcat Lynx back in January, which from what I have seen, also looks to be a great sounding amp.

 

[bandit2013]

I am glad you waited. that was like three years ago? Very long wait. I hope you have many years of enjoyment with the Badlander 100W, You said you got the Rectifier 212, what format? Vertical or horizontal? Now they have a vertical straight but diagonal speaker placement.

 

[Corrupted123]

Thanks.
I went with the 2x12 horizontal recto cab in the end. I did contemplate the compact version, but opted for the regular size 2x12 in the end.
Again, very pleased with the set up!