Mark V new user question

[DrummerChas]

Hello, I am new to the board and appreciate the good information in some of the previous threads I have read. With that I could really use some help here. As the username implies, I am predominently a drummer having played for 27 years and gig regularly. I picked up guitar a couple of years back and love it. The guitar I use is a JP EBMM BFR 6 with the crunchlab/liquifire pups. Really a great guitar IMO!

I just got a new Mark V for my birthday and I have some questions/concerns about whether or not I can get the tone out of it that I want. I really like Petrucci's tone and I want something similar with this amp, however I also really want to be able to capture an 80's metal tone ala George Lynch / Warren DeMartini / Reb Beach etc. Since this amp is so flexible, I figured it would do the job well for both. When I picked up the amp, I took it to my guitar mentor who is very reputable in my area. He loaned me a 4x12 Marshall 1960 lead cab while I am awaiting my Mesa Recto vertical 2x12 cab to arrive in a couple of months. We set up the Mark V with the Marshall cab and my guitar and I have to say we really struggled to find a decent 80's metal tone. We spent a few hours dialing in settings, using settings from other people from other forums, switched between my guitar and his and we just couldn't get there. On the other hand, he has a Line 6 AX2 2x12 combo that he turned to the "Metallica" setting and boom, it's like George Lynch is sitting in the room with you.

Now, a couple of things to note: 1) We were just running pure to the Mark V, no effects added. 2) his Line 6 amp had effects built in, the reverb was consiberably more defined and I'm sure the "Metallica" setting had other effects as well.

I think the biggest thing that concerns me is the distortion. I'm probably going to spend a lot of time in Chan 3. I like to play mostly 80's metal and some progressive rock (like DT stuff). But the distortion on the Mark V seems very focused and sort of "boxed in" when compared to the AX2 which sounded very open, full, and balanced with a good heavy crunch. I was really hoping I wouldn't have to consider sticking a Tube Screamer in front of this amp to get the sound I want. I also noticed that the Mark V sounded kind of harsh and shrilly in the treble as well (not sure if that is a product of the speaker or not though). All that said, when we cranked up the Mark V in "Mark IV mode" we were able to do some tweeking that got some really great, clear and defined tones at higher volumes, so I feel confident that this is really a great amp, however if I can't get it to do what I want, then I will have to take it back and get something else. I've got just under a month to figure it out. Any advice on settings, effects or anything else on my set up is appreciated!

DC

 

[NR2112]

I feel i know what your sayin. as a new user, I think it is difficult to find the tone when your searching for it. I have the same expectations o the MV, and when it doesnt meet them, i feel let down. I found (in my instance) that the sounds come to you, as opposed to you going to the sounds. what i mean i guess is that, its hard to make it do something it cant. perhaps it isnt the 80s machine like we thought it was ( ithought so too)

then again, maybe it is there, but we need to really here it. I know if im playing it and tweaking it, my ears gets so foggy from the tweaking i dont know what is what an longer.

dont know if this makes sense, but i think th tones will come to you in time. if ive learned one thing form the mark, its that it requires patience and time to find the tone your looking for....

 

[phyrexia]

1960 cabs kinda suck. Try a cab with different speakers.

 

[Scary]

Guitars make or break the sound in a Mark V, as does the cabinet. With my Mark V, i'd use ch. 2 crunch mode for 80's and ch.3 for JP. Most 80's rock had effects, so does JP.. so feel free to add those in for taste.

 

[Heritage Softail]

delay, compressor, boost, some hotter tubes... Then layered tracks, ambient mics, sound engineered to the hilt. That is one thing I did not like about concerts back in the day. NOBODY seemed to sound near as good live as on vinyl. Except ZZ Top on the Tres Hombres tour. Now that was a show.... 8) But we were sooooo stoned. I must say when we saw Metallica last year it was strange not to be enveloped in heavy green smoke like in the old days.

EL34's are a little more 80's hair band/metal flavored to my ears. Only about $55 for a Quad of JJ's. SED =C= are supposed to be the old Svetlana tubes, great tone. >$

 

[espmaster1]

But the distortion on the Mark V seems very focused and sort of "boxed in" when compared to the AX2 which sounded very open, full, and balanced with a good heavy crunch. I was really hoping I wouldn't have to consider sticking a Tube Screamer in front of this amp to get the sound I want. I also noticed that the Mark V sounded kind of harsh and shrilly in the treble as well (not sure if that is a product of the speaker or not though). All that said, when we cranked up the Mark V in "Mark IV mode" we were able to do some tweeking that got some really great, clear and defined tones at higher volumes, so I feel confident that this is really a great amp, however if I can't get it to do what I want, then I will have to take it back and get something else. I've got just under a month to figure it out. Any advice on settings, effects or anything else on my set up is appreciated!

DC

When it comes to the distortion... That is kind of the Mark trademark... It's compressed/punchy/boxy. AT least, the lead channel is like that. I would try fiddling with the EQ to open the sound up a bit, and your presence as well?

 

[Deaj]

Welcome and congratulations (and happy birthday)!

I like similar tones (amongst many others) and have had reasonable success getting what I want out of the Mark V. Keep in mind that I'm not looking to cop tones straight off albums necessarily but rather get tones and textures that fit this style / genre well.

The Line6 stuff comes close to what you hear on albums because it's modeling a more complex signal chain (pedals->amp->cab->mic->effects). With a tube amp and cab/speaker you only have a portion of what we commonly hear recorded (as someone else posted double-tacking is sometimes present along with the additional elements in the signal chain).

For the amps part there's a lot to work with in the Mark V and, in my experience so far, it is capable of providing 80's rock tones that sound great! The amp is only going to cover part of the equation though. It'll start in Channel 2, Crunch mode. This channel/mode does a great hot-rodded Marshall thing but the overdrive definitely has some Mesa character. You can either drive this channel hard and get a sort-of Mesa/Marshall hybrid rock tone (with the means on board to lean the character in one direction or the other) or you dial in less overdrive from the amp and push the front end with a pedal, just as it was being done back in the day. How you dial the amp in for lower gain overdriven Marshall tone is up to you. For the 80's rock thing I prefer settings like: Full Power (no Variac), Ch.2/Crunch, 90 watt, Gain 12-2 o'clock, Master 1-2 o'clock, Presence to best suit the room and cab/speaker(s), Treble 1 o'clock, Mid 12 o'clock, Bass 11 o'clock, no EQ, loop active and Master Volume to set level in the room. This is a rough sketch from memory but it's probably pretty close to my settings for this sound (I have a 1x12 combo with the Mesa C90 speaker - take that into consideration).

The pedal->amp setup is going to get you better results I believe. I resisted doing this for a while too because I was hoping the amp would do everything. As stated above it will but with compromise. Using settings similar to those above I'll then place a low gain overdrive pedal in front of the amp. A Tube Screamer works well, it was a favorite for this kind of sound. I have a modified Marshall BluesBreaker pedal that I use (my design - circuit revoiced slightly, presence circuit added, clipping diodes swapped for LED's). The idea is the same: the pedal adds a little grit and boosts the guitar signal to push the input gain stage hard, the pedals circuit cuts a little low end from the guitar signal, TS circuits also boost the mids as well. A TS or other simple low gain overdrive will almost certainly have a tone control. Between the pedals controls and the amps controls (which, of course, further complicates tweaking) you'll have plenty of variability in timbre, compression, gain, and texture. This will get you closer than the amp by itself. If you choose to go this route demo pedals with your amp if possible to see what works best for you.

Cabinet/speakers: some speakers sound better than others with any amp, not all speakers work well in all enclosures. The player will also have personal preferences. Lucky for you the cab you have coming sounds awesome with the MkV (it did, to my ears, for the many demo hours I spent making a decision on this amp)! The Marshall 1960 cabs came with 70 watt or 75 watt Celestions - for my part at least these speakers just sound awful. I've not played through a 1960 cab that I liked. Some folks like them though so I'm not making a global judgment on that cab, just a personal one. If your ears are anything like mine they'll be very happy when your Mesa cab arrives. Either way you'll have to mess with the various controls to see if you can optimize the amps sound for that cab to get closest to what you're looking for out of the amp.

Last piece - processing. The Mark V has a great sounding tube-buffered series effects loop. If you can get your hands on a decent effects processor you'll definitely move that much closer to getting sounds like those you hear on album. Echo/delay and reverb sound best late in a guitar rigs signal chain, after signal clipping takes place. This isn't necessary but it's pretty cool! I use a Boss VF-1 (half 1U rack width multi-effects processor) I picked up used on Ebay for $110.

I hope your Mark V works out as well for you as it has for me!

 

[eudaimonia02912]

I am a bit flabbergasted by your post, to be honest. I've never heard anything by Line 6 that could hold a candle to the tones I got out of my Mark V the first day I had it. I'm not saying this to criticize you, but just to express surprise. I've had POD XTs and an X3 for years, so I'm an experience POD user.

 

[golfnguitarz]

I am struggling a bit too. I can't tame the treble in this amp, but I don't want to hijack your thread. Here is what I found tonight in Crunch, maybe it will help. I have been trying to use the preset eq for Crunch, but it seems to only have a subtle effect. I had been using the GEQ for channel 3 only, leaving it in the classic V shape. But I couldn't get Crunch to sound anywhere close to my Marshall TSL(don't know if that is a good Marshall sound or not). I gave up and started tweaking the GEQ and put it in a W shape, boosted the Mid in Crunch to 2 o'clock, treble around 10, bass around 11. This got me almost dead on to what my TSL sounds like in Crunch mode. Long story short, use that GEQ, it really opened up that channel for me.

 

[Heritage Softail]

EL34's tame the harsh treble element. Search threads for EL34's. You will find that as a recurring theme/benefit.

 

[golfnguitarz]

:lol: I knew I would hear from you Softail. I have been reading all of the threads before I started posting about what I am running into. Yeah, I will eventually try the EL34s, but I wanted to try the regular tubes first since I have never owned a 6L6 amp before. I will post in a different thread later. I still have some things to try out.

 

[eudaimonia02912]

EL34's tame the harsh treble element. Search threads for EL34's. You will find that as a recurring theme/benefit.

Everyone should just order a matched quad of SED Winged C EL34s, rated 29, from Tube Depot. These should come standard with the amp. They fatten up the tone but smooth the top end. I thought the change was dramatic.

 

[madryan]

Don't overlook speakers.

I've got mine running through an oversized 212 with a set of WGS speakers. The speakers are a Veteran 30 (a US made V30 without such a huge mid spike) and an ET-65 (a US made 65w Celestion clone) which really works great for midrangey rock sounds from the Mark V.

I've found the smaller Boogie 212's sound really boxy and compressed. That's why I like the oversized 212 I have (Avatar Bogner ripoff) and if you've got a set of newer V30's and haven't been jamming on them really loud a couple hours a day for a couple months they're still going to have the ice-pick highs they all have when they're not broken in. That's probably the treble thing some people are hearing.

I do like the SED EL-34's tho...

 

[ixoye777]

DrummerChas, it seem to me that you have been playing music for a long time now and have a ton of experience under your belt. If after 2 hours you and your guitar mentor couldn't get the tones you are looking for out of the V then you should return it. Spend an hour or two playing different amps and bring home the one you like. No point in spending a ton of time and buying additional things (pedals, tubes, etc) if you can't get a good tone you like out of just a guitar, amp and cab.

Now I am going to contradict all that by saying that channel 3 on my V sounds horrible and nigh near unusable through my Mesa DR w/V30's. There is just no way to tame the shrill treble. Through my buddies Marshall 1960a cab it sounds so much better as to be almost a different amp.

I also assume you are playing at 90w and you have the sucker cranked. With the gain past 11oclock channel 3 sounds terrible at low volumes.

 

[golfnguitarz]

Don't overlook speakers.

I've got mine running through an oversized 212 with a set of WGS speakers. The speakers are a Veteran 30 (a US made V30 without such a huge mid spike) and an ET-65 (a US made 65w Celestion clone) which really works great for midrangey rock sounds from the Mark V.

I've found the smaller Boogie 212's sound really boxy and compressed. That's why I like the oversized 212 I have (Avatar Bogner ripoff) and if you've got a set of newer V30's and haven't been jamming on them really loud a couple hours a day for a couple months they're still going to have the ice-pick highs they all have when they're not broken in. That's probably the treble thing some people are hearing.

I do like the SED EL-34's tho...

I have the MV and a 2x12 Vertical Slant w/V30's for about 2 weeks now, IMHO, that cab almost qualifies as an oversized cab. It can really thump. Standing off to the side of the cab or just off-center, everything sounds reasonable, but move around to be directly in front and it's like an ice pick is hitting you in the head(SC or humbuckers). If I were still gigging, I would be afraid of hurting someone in the audience. I cannot get my Treble or Presence anywhere near the factory suggested settings or the ones in the Tone Settings threads while sitting in front of the cab. After a bunch of reading, I am convinced that I am just getting nailed with the dustcap?/center of the speaker where all the treble comes out. There is definitely a harshness to the top end as well. I have always bought used amps, so I never had to break a speaker in. I am considering getting some of those Weber Beam Blockers to use until the speakers break in (guess I have a ways to go on that). What do you think?

[EDIT]
I have since found a whole bunch of threads on the Beam Blocker and the Mitchell Doughnut. I think I will try the doughnut approach. It seems to address exactly what I feel I am running into.

 

[JOEY B.]

EL34's tame the harsh treble element. Search threads for EL34's. You will find that as a recurring theme/benefit.

Everyone should just order a matched quad of SED Winged C EL34s, rated 29, from Tube Depot. These should come standard with the amp. They fatten up the tone but smooth the top end. I thought the change was dramatic.

On my warranty card for my Electra Dyne, on the "suggestions" line, I stated that I wished that they would use SED 6L6's and EL-34's as standard issue in their new amps. They used to offer them years ago as the STR-454 and STR-442. I commented that I, among many others, would have no problem paying another $50 for my amp to get these tubes factory installed. 8)

 

[DrummerChas]

Welcome and congratulations (and happy birthday)!

I like similar tones (amongst many others) and have had reasonable success getting what I want out of the Mark V. Keep in mind that I'm not looking to cop tones straight off albums necessarily but rather get tones and textures that fit this style / genre well.

The Line6 stuff comes close to what you hear on albums because it's modeling a more complex signal chain (pedals->amp->cab->mic->effects). With a tube amp and cab/speaker you only have a portion of what we commonly hear recorded (as someone else posted double-tacking is sometimes present along with the additional elements in the signal chain).

For the amps part there's a lot to work with in the Mark V and, in my experience so far, it is capable of providing 80's rock tones that sound great! The amp is only going to cover part of the equation though. It'll start in Channel 2, Crunch mode. This channel/mode does a great hot-rodded Marshall thing but the overdrive definitely has some Mesa character. You can either drive this channel hard and get a sort-of Mesa/Marshall hybrid rock tone (with the means on board to lean the character in one direction or the other) or you dial in less overdrive from the amp and push the front end with a pedal, just as it was being done back in the day. How you dial the amp in for lower gain overdriven Marshall tone is up to you. For the 80's rock thing I prefer settings like: Full Power (no Variac), Ch.2/Crunch, 90 watt, Gain 12-2 o'clock, Master 1-2 o'clock, Presence to best suit the room and cab/speaker(s), Treble 1 o'clock, Mid 12 o'clock, Bass 11 o'clock, no EQ, loop active and Master Volume to set level in the room. This is a rough sketch from memory but it's probably pretty close to my settings for this sound (I have a 1x12 combo with the Mesa C90 speaker - take that into consideration).

The pedal->amp setup is going to get you better results I believe. I resisted doing this for a while too because I was hoping the amp would do everything. As stated above it will but with compromise. Using settings similar to those above I'll then place a low gain overdrive pedal in front of the amp. A Tube Screamer works well, it was a favorite for this kind of sound. I have a modified Marshall BluesBreaker pedal that I use (my design - circuit revoiced slightly, presence circuit added, clipping diodes swapped for LED's). The idea is the same: the pedal adds a little grit and boosts the guitar signal to push the input gain stage hard, the pedals circuit cuts a little low end from the guitar signal, TS circuits also boost the mids as well. A TS or other simple low gain overdrive will almost certainly have a tone control. Between the pedals controls and the amps controls (which, of course, further complicates tweaking) you'll have plenty of variability in timbre, compression, gain, and texture. This will get you closer than the amp by itself. If you choose to go this route demo pedals with your amp if possible to see what works best for you.

Cabinet/speakers: some speakers sound better than others with any amp, not all speakers work well in all enclosures. The player will also have personal preferences. Lucky for you the cab you have coming sounds awesome with the MkV (it did, to my ears, for the many demo hours I spent making a decision on this amp)! The Marshall 1960 cabs came with 70 watt or 75 watt Celestions - for my part at least these speakers just sound awful. I've not played through a 1960 cab that I liked. Some folks like them though so I'm not making a global judgment on that cab, just a personal one. If your ears are anything like mine they'll be very happy when your Mesa cab arrives. Either way you'll have to mess with the various controls to see if you can optimize the amps sound for that cab to get closest to what you're looking for out of the amp.

Last piece - processing. The Mark V has a great sounding tube-buffered series effects loop. If you can get your hands on a decent effects processor you'll definitely move that much closer to getting sounds like those you hear on album. Echo/delay and reverb sound best late in a guitar rigs signal chain, after signal clipping takes place. This isn't necessary but it's pretty cool! I use a Boss VF-1 (half 1U rack width multi-effects processor) I picked up used on Ebay for $110.

I hope your Mark V works out as well for you as it has for me!

Thanks very much for the detail in your post. I had a feeling the Marshall 1960 was a bad match but I am kinda stuck with it until the vertical 2x12 gets here. In the meantime, I will try to implement the things you suggested. Thanks again!

 

[DrummerChas]

I am a bit flabbergasted by your post, to be honest. I've never heard anything by Line 6 that could hold a candle to the tones I got out of my Mark V the first day I had it. I'm not saying this to criticize you, but just to express surprise. I've had POD XTs and an X3 for years, so I'm an experience POD user.

I was a bit surprised too, but I think Deaj said it right in the previous post in that the way the Line 6 had the signal chain setup, it just sounded good to my ears right out of the box because of all the processing. Still as a brand new Mark user, I can tell the quality and overall capability of the two amps aren't even on the same planet. What the Line 6 could do stopped right there, what the Mark V can do is clearly much greater than I understand right now. I'm just trying to make sure that at this price level, it will be able to do what I ultimately need it to do, even if it takes me a while to get there. Thanks for your comment!

 

[DrummerChas]

EL34's tame the harsh treble element. Search threads for EL34's. You will find that as a recurring theme/benefit.

Thanks for your comment!

One thing I hear recurring in responses both here and on the Petrucci board where I posted a similar question is that a lot of guys switched to SED winged EL34's right away, which I also heard voids the warranty. Should I give it time with the stock tubes or should I make the switch asap? Would this tube switch out really make that big of a difference in getting that 80's hair metal, 80's rock sound and still get a good Petrucci type tone (given that I use the right effects alongside)? Really ultimately for me, those are the most critical tone types.

Another thing that seems to keep coming up is speaker choice. When I called Mesa about the vertical recto 2x12, they said they felt the V30's in them were the best all around choice. So if that is the case, why do so many people complain about the high shrill treble, ice picky sound? Would the tubes really solve it with this cab or do I really need to consider a different cab?

 

[golfnguitarz]

EL34's tame the harsh treble element. Search threads for EL34's. You will find that as a recurring theme/benefit.

Thanks for your comment!

One thing I hear recurring in responses both here and on the Petrucci board where I posted a similar question is that a lot of guys switched to SED winged EL34's right away, which I also heard voids the warranty. Should I give it time with the stock tubes or should I make the switch asap? Would this tube switch out really make that big of a difference in getting that 80's hair metal, 80's rock sound and still get a good Petrucci type tone (given that I use the right effects alongside)? Really ultimately for me, those are the most critical tone types.

Another thing that seems to keep coming up is speaker choice. When I called Mesa about the vertical recto 2x12, they said they felt the V30's in them were the best all around choice. So if that is the case, why do so many people complain about the high shrill treble, ice picky sound? Would the tubes really solve it with this cab or do I really need to consider a different cab?

I am starting to come around to the conclusion that is a combination of several things. Some are saying the V30s will mellow or smooth out a bit after a proper breakin. I obviously haven't got to that point yet. They are beamy. By that, I mean if you stand directly in front, you get the ice pick highs on the vertical stack. The horizontal rectos aimed at your knees won't exhibit this unless you bend way down and get level with the speaker. This cab was highly recommended to me as well, and I am gonna stick with it for a while and see what happens.