Mark V + ISP Decimator Prorack G setup question

[Deedee]

I've just ordered a Decimator for my Mark V, but I'm sketchy about the setup and was looking for some input.

Basically, the recommended Decimator setup suggests plugging channel 1 straight into the amp, and channel 2 into the effects loop. My concern is that when running the effects loop on the Mark V, I find that the sound of the amp changes pretty dramatically, it loses considerable guts when not on hard bypass.

Is there a way to set it up on the Mark V without using the effects loop, yet still benefiting from using both channels on the Decimator?

My current rack consists of a TC Electronics G Major 2 and a Korg DTR2000.

I appreciate the help, thanks!

 

[mesa metal]

I have not tried the decimator pedal in my mkv but have you tried the noise gate in the g major.through the effects loop...
at first I couldn't stand using the effects loop but with some tweaking of the levels both the loop levels and the in and out levels in the g major...im getting a decent tone...
I also noticed with the solo boost engaged and turned up slightly it seems to put back some of the guts on the sound....so I leave that on all the time.if im using the effects loop.........hope this helps just for some insight...let us know how it works out for you.tweaking the eq settings helps somewhat too

 

[screamingdaisy]

If you don't want to use the FX loop then don't use the second channel on the gate. The whole point of it is that you can gate the loop using a threshold sourced from before the amp, so if you're not using the FX loop then there's no point to using the second gate.

 

[Deedee]

Using both channels on the Decimator has nothing to do with whether you're using the effects loop or not, it has to do with how it processes the signal, two separate detector channels to deal with different noise.

From their website:

"Players keep asking how the ProRackG works without any required change in the threshold when changing from clean to distort, the ProRackG has two channels of noise reduction.

The guitar plugs directly into the channel 1 input and the level and frequency detectors for both channel 1 and channel 2 measure the direct guitar input signal. This means that changing from a clean sound to a high gain distorted will not affect the signal seen by the detectors. This means that you can use the first Decimator channel to eliminate any noise that the guitar picks up directly like transformer hum, light noise etc. You simply adjust the threshold of channel 1 to eliminate this front end noise. The second channel is inserted into the effects loop of your amplifier (requires a series effects loop) and this channel will clean up the high gain preamp noise, ground loop hum, and any other noise that you have in this chain.

The beauty of its operation is that the second channel is working to clean up this high gain noise but in response to the actual guitar signal, which typically has a much higher dynamic range than what you would see if this channel’s detector’s were detecting the high gain signal. By setting the threshold of channel 2 to eliminate all of the gain noise when the guitar signal decays into the noise this will also provide the correct setting for your clean channel."

 

[screamingdaisy]

Using both channels on the Decimator has nothing to do with whether you're using the effects loop or not, it has to do with how it processes the signal, two separate detector channels to deal with different noise.

Did you even read the description before you posted your response?

The second channel is inserted into the effects loop of your amplifier (requires a series effects loop)

 

[Deedee]

Ok let me try this again...

I'm not using the effects loop currently and don't intend to, but according to ISP, you need to connect channel 2 of their noise gate to your amp's effects loop in order for their detectors to work as intended.

My question was, is there a way to have their detectors function the way they're supposed to, while still using the hard bypass on the amp and avoiding the effects loop.

 

[screamingdaisy]

Ok let me try this again...

I'm not using the effects loop currently and don't intend to, but according to ISP, you need to connect channel 2 of their noise gate to your amp's effects loop in order for their detectors to work as intended.

My question was, is there a way to have their detectors function the way they're supposed to, while still using the hard bypass on the amp and avoiding the effects loop.

Just use channel 1 on ISP. Leave channel 2 disabled.

 

[Deedee]

I appreciate the input and all, but if you don't know, why bother? By "disabling" channel 2 on the Decimator, you're limiting it's ability to detect noise and inhibiting it's function. The point is that you can switch between a clean and high gain channel, and not have to mess with the threshold setting on the noise gate.

My question, once again, is there a way on the Mark V to set up the Decimator without using the effects loop, but still maintain the intended functionality of the detectors.

 

[screamingdaisy]

I appreciate the input and all, but if you don't know, why bother? By "disabling" channel 2 on the Decimator, you're limiting it's ability to detect noise and inhibiting it's function. The point is that you can switch between a clean and high gain channel, and not have to mess with the threshold setting on the noise gate.

My question, once again, is there a way on the Mark V to set up the Decimator without using the effects loop, but still maintain the intended functionality of the detectors.

Do you even understand how a noise gate functions?

 

[Deedee]

I'm no expert, that's why I'm here, but I do have a pretty good understanding of the English language, and it's pretty clear to me that the Decimator requires the 2 channel set up.

I fully accept that i could be wrong and appreciate the input, so since you have such an advanced grasp of noise gate functionality, why don't you go ahead and explain exactly how specifically the ISP Decimator Prorack G works?

Thanks!

 

[Deedee]

For the record, here's an email response that I got about set up on a Mark V from Bill Blatter of ISP Technologies:

"Here's what I would suggest with the Mk 5. I would set the fx loop (loop on) send level at 12:00 , loop assign to all, the guitar into the first channel of the Pro Rack G . The out of the first channel to the input of the Mk5. Now connect the second channel to the fx loop on the back of the amp. What will happen is with the guitar in ch 1 of the Pro Rack G, the guitar signal feeds the detectors of both channels simultaniously . This means the triggering of the Decimator is referenced off your guitar which would be a consistant signal source for the unit. It also means that the threshold settings can remain the same no matter what channels you using."

 

[screamingdaisy]

What will happen is with the guitar in ch 1 of the Pro Rack G, the guitar signal feeds the detectors of both channels simultaniously . This means the triggering of the Decimator is referenced off your guitar which would be a consistant signal source for the unit. It also means that the threshold settings can remain the same no matter what channels you using."

The quote above is the answer to your question.

If you don't want to use the FX loop leave channel 2 unplugged and shut off. The unit triggers both gates based on the signal being input into channel 1.

The whole point of channel 2 is to gate the loop, and since it's referenced off the signal input into channel 1 you can change channels on your amp without having to change the threshold setting on the Pro Rack G. If you're not using the FX loop you don't need channel 2.

 

[Deedee]

I think what you're saying is that channel 2 is just a second channel to use if you have another amp or you want to run a pedal chain through or something if you're actually using the effects loop. I can accept that maybe i'm being dense and just not getting it.

What has me confused is that from my understanding, channel 1 and channel 2 on the Decimator have two separate functions, and that if you use only channel 1, you'll lose the ability to deaden amp buzz and hissing, which I think comes from having channel 2 plugged into the effects loop. That's what has me concerned about simply using the one channel on the gate, that ill lose effectiveness.

Here's the text from their website where I originally read it:

"The Decimator ProRackG is the only system in the world designed with two channels of single ended noise reduction configured specifically for high gain guitar applications allowing one channel to deliver noise reduction for the guitar directly and a second channel to eliminate amplifier gain noise.

Channel one eliminates the 50 or 60 cycle hum, buzz, stage light noise and any other noise picked up directly by the instrument. The ProRack channel one output drives the front end of your guitar amplifier and eliminates all of the input noise picked up by the guitar. The control circuit of the second channel detects and tracks the guitar signal directly while the signal processing audio chain is patched into the effects loop of the high gain guitar amplifier. Now you can quiet down even the most insane amounts of noise with any amplifier system incorporating a series effects loop."

Thanks, I think we got off on the wrong foot, but I really do appreciate your input. I've been playing for 23 years, but new to rack effects.

 

[Screamindv]

I use a pro rack G with my Triaxis and it is great. Here is how it works. You plug your guitar into input 1 of the ProRack. This will remove any noise being generated by your guitar by setting threshold 1. Out of ProRack 1 into input of amp. Out of FX Send of amp into input 2 of proRack. This will reduce the noise coming from the preamp stage of your amp. Out of ProRack to return of amp.Now here is the key. On the front of the ProRack, there is a knob called filter tracking. Slowly turn this clockwise until it starts to choke your high frequencies. When this happens, dial it back counterclockwise to the point where the highs appear again.When set like this, the Pro Rack has learned the difference between amp highs and noise. When I have mine on, My delays will repeat into silence and retain a pure signal because the unit has learned my guitar and my amp. I have a very intricate rack set up and I couldnt live without it. Since you are using no FX, your settings will be fairly mild. Best analogy and true story. I was having a sound check with another guitarist and his amp was humming and buzzing all over the place. I asked whats up and he said "your amp will do it to once you turn on". I then hit a power chord and blew him across the room: my amp WAS ON!
Good luck!
Dave

 

[Screamindv]

I use a pro rack G with my Triaxis and it is great. Here is how it works. You plug your guitar into input 1 of the ProRack. This will remove any noise being generated by your guitar by setting threshold 1. Out of ProRack 1 into input of amp. Out of FX Send of amp into input 2 of proRack. This will reduce the noise coming from the preamp stage of your amp. Out of ProRack to return of amp.Now here is the key. On the front of the ProRack, there is a knob called filter tracking. Slowly turn this clockwise until it starts to choke your high frequencies. When this happens, dial it back counterclockwise to the point where the highs appear again.When set like this, the Pro Rack has learned the difference between amp highs and noise. When I have mine on, My delays will repeat into silence and retain a pure signal because the unit has learned my guitar and my amp. I have a very intricate rack set up and I couldnt live without it. Since you are using no FX, your settings will be fairly mild. Best analogy and true story. I was having a sound check with another guitarist and his amp was humming and buzzing all over the place. I asked whats up and he said "your amp will do it to once you turn on". I then hit a power chord and blew him across the room: my amp WAS ON!
Good luck!
Dave

 

[screamingdaisy]

I think what you're saying is that channel 2 is just a second channel to use if you have another amp or you want to run a pedal chain through or something if you're actually using the effects loop. I can accept that maybe i'm being dense and just not getting it.

What has me confused is that from my understanding, channel 1 and channel 2 on the Decimator have two separate functions, and that if you use only channel 1, you'll lose the ability to deaden amp buzz and hissing, which I think comes from having channel 2 plugged into the effects loop. That's what has me concerned about simply using the one channel on the gate, that ill lose effectiveness.

Lets boil it down to a single channel noise gate, like a Boss NS-2 or something.

If you put it in front of the amp it will mute the guitar directly, which eliminates any noise coming from the guitar (60cyl hum, stage lights, etc)... but, if you have a noisy amplifier it won't mute that noise. The advantage is that it senses your guitar directly, so you can change channels on your amp or step on an overdrive pedal and your gate will continue to function fine.... it just won't mute any additional noise generated further down the signal path.

If you move the NS-2 to the effects loop it will now mute your noisy amp. The problem is on a channel switching amp each channel produces a different dynamic response. If you set the threshold high enough on the gate that it'll mute your high gain channel it will start cutting off your clean channel, and if you set the threshold low enough that it doesn't cut off your clean channel it won't even close on your high gain channel.

What ISP has done is combined two noise gates and controlled them with a single input source. Imagine those two NS-2s mentioned before. The first one tracks the guitar directly, so you can change channels and step on an overdrive and it doesn't matter. Now imagine the first noise gate controlling the second noise gate so that both open and close at the same time. The second noise gate will now mute all the noise off the amp, but it only reacts to the dynamics coming directly from the guitar. Now you're free to change channels on the amp since the second gate no longer reacts to the dynamic levels in the FX loop.

Make sense? It's kind of hard to type a description.

That's the whole point of the two channel setup. Channel 2 mutes the FX loop based on the input signal being fed into channel 1. But, if you're not using your effects loop then channel 2 becomes redundant. Channel 1 will still function normally and mute the signal direct off your guitar.

 

[Deedee]

Thanks for the input guys, I appreciate the walk through, the info really helps.

 

[oblivius]

Great topic since I just purchased the same Pro rack G gate...works GREAT ! Do either of you folks know if it's best to put i.e. an fx processor like G-Maj 2 before the ISP in the fx loop or after? (sort of an after the fact question but all answers appreciated :mrgreen:

 

[pal]

You don't want to mute delays and reverb so put the fx after the 2channel gate of the ISP.
For the ultimate, non-inexpensive, rig, go for a dry/wet setup, keeping the analog signal path more clean, and let the delays flowwwwwwww!