mark iic+ vs mark iii

[Aramism]

i have a roadking now and am a huge fan of the recto sound...


but i am also a fan of the work done and recorded by artist who use the mark series like metallica, DT, lamb of god, etc.


i've never heard a mark iii ever or maybe i have and didn't know it. i know a lot of black album by metallica was tracked with a mark iii but anyway i love the smooth lead tones of john petrucci which were done with a iic+ and i love the "dry" rhythym that lamb of god feautres with a mark iv


so i mean putting aside the mark iv which i will get in the future i really wanted a great lead tone and a close to mark iv ish rhtyhym tone for an alternative and a complimentary tone to that of my road king recto tone.



what are the differences and tonal variations between the iic+ and the iii


i have a lot of switching and stuff going on in my curretn rig so im not too concerned with the channels and i dont realyl care about the clean sound because i have a great clean with my RK just want something with a good smooth liquid lead sound (most people will say the highly coveted iic+) and a good rhythym tone



i know more about the iic+ than the iii so please some info on the iii and how it is like/unlike a iic+ and a iv


also i know that a c+ modification can be done from a iic to a c+ or a iii to a c+

i spoke to mesa and they said either of them could be modded for a c+.


a straight c+ is very expensive (i only want a head) but i find iic's and iii's on ebay for under $1000


i dont have room for trial and error with mixing and matching its not like i can return it to guitar center when i want. they are old amps would require a lot of lugging around back and fourth and shipping to mesa and back. its a very lengthy process id like your guys help please.

 

[Elpelotero]

I'm not so positive James used a mark3 for Black Album. I've read interviews where he specifically quotes using the C+. You can even see the C+ all over his rig pictures from that era. Kirk is a little more liberal in his amp selections, so he probably at least tried it out.

As for the 3 vs. c+:

Features:
-it will be very difficult to get a good sound on all 3 channels of the Mark3 because you only have one set of controls. you'll sacrifice one or 2 channels EQ wise just to get one channel sounding good.
-the C+ has the mythical 105 power transformer, which gives it that tight definition Metallica is famous for. The 3 has the 100, which will create some more sag. Since you've been mentioning Metallica and LOG, i don't think you are looking for sag. However, if you're seeking to be Carlos Santana or something, you may want some sag to get a bit more of a squishy feel. it's up to you. The differences are not monumental, but exist if you look for them. The 100 can sound tight and the 105 creamy.

Tone:
-most people agree the C+ sounds better than the 3's. However, a 3 can sound very close to a C+. It's just not 100% there. A forum member who left recently had a 3 he swore sounded almost identical to his C+. You have to research a bit on which "dot" color of the 3's is closest.

Modding:
-You can mod a 3 to a C+, but like i said, you won't have the 105 trans. You'll be stuck with a 100. 105's are no longer produced. I haven't done research in this for a while but I think there is something else preventing a 3 from becoming a full-out C+ clone..??..don't quote me. i don't recall.

On the Mark4:
-the mark4 A fromt the early nineties had the exact same preamp circuit as the C+. the power circuit was difft. though, so it doesn't sound 100% the same. The B version is most likely what LOG uses. It's a little more raw, modern, and aggressive.
-You can buy a Mark4 and it will sound ridiculously close to a C+. If you're a tone purist, maybe you don't want "close enough." I urge you to try out a Mark4 and see if you like it enough as far as sounding like a C+. Then you kill all the birds with one stone!

the big differences will be in the lead channels. The clean channels on all these amps are pretty similar.

 

[Aramism]

Elpelotero thanks a lot dude that was helpful but keep in mind i am looking at a iic not a c+ on ebay...


does the iic have the 105 transformer?????




in toerh words is a c+ modded iic the same thing as a c+???




and in referencing to the iii are there and clips anywhere of a iii???



and in referencing to a iv is the iv like a collection of the iic, iic+, and iii

in other words is it all of them in 1?

 

[Elpelotero]

Elpelotero thanks a lot dude that was helpful but keep in mind i am looking at a iic not a c+ on ebay...


does the iic have the 105 transformer?????

in toerh words is a c+ modded iic the same thing as a c+???

and in referencing to the iii are there and clips anywhere of a iii???

and in referencing to a iv is the iv like a collection of the iic, iic+, and iii

in other words is it all of them in 1?

1. all regular factory stock C+'s should either have the 105 or the X101, which is only found on the export versions (which are rare). Supposedly the X101 is the best for simul-class because it allows the amp to behave like a true class A amp.

Not all 2C's have the 105. Some 2c's have the 100, some the X101, some the 105. The 105 entered towards the end of the production of the 2c's, right before they started making C+'s. The reason for the 105, according to Mike B., "was that everyone kept asking for more power!" However, the 105 was a very hot running transformer and many tubes were dying quickly because of it. I digress though.....

2. Yes, a 2C modded into a C+ is EXACTLY the same as a factory original C+. I think Mike B. got tired of me asking him that every time I called with questions.

3. yes, there are plenty of clips of mark3's. there's plenty on this forum. Also, danyeo, a member here, has some clips. I don't think he would mind my sharing his link, since he often shares his clips. http://www.musicv2.com/artist/danyeo/

4. the mark4 was intended to be the culmination, the end all, of the mark amps. They took the best of the best it seems. They took the C+ circuit and then gave independent channel EQ's to correct the flaw of the mark3. It can do mark1 sounds also. You may also want to look into a Triaxis if you're after the sounds of the Mark amps. The Triaxis has all the sounds of the Mark amps in one little rack unit. Metallica has been using it live since the mid 90's. It is a very convincing sound, but it's only flaw is that you cannot tweak as much as you would the actual amp head. The triaxis is the true "all in one."

Show me the link of the amp you're looking at and I'll tell you what it has.

 

[trem]

Nice one ElPelotero. Just to add some info, I know for a fact that some early Mark III (black dots/stripes) came with the 105 transformer.

 

[Aramism]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Mesa-Boogie-Mark-IIC-III-with-simul-class-EQ-Reverb_W0QQitemZ110055659596QQihZ001QQcategoryZ43374QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



i verified serial # with mesa that he wrote. i cant make out the one in pic. the seller has no clue what this is cuz he copy and pasted the info, and he is just a mass seller...



i hope i can get he iic+ lead tone and a good dry lamb of god type rhytym sound/chevelle ishh (i dont like chevelle that much but i love the low tunings plus the low gain but heavy sound if yo uknow what i mean)

 

[Aramism]

also note it says that its not simul-class 60/100 but 15/75


thats whack no??? isnt the 100 the way to go especially running through a 4x12 mesa cab and considering it would comploi,ment my road king???

 

[JOEY B.]

Once you hear the lead tone of the C+, you probably won't care about those 25 watts that are missing. Look very carefully at the feedback for this seller. You will only notice one feedback from a buyer, and several repeated feedbacks from sellers. The scammers have seen the Boogies that bring high prices. I almost got took on a maple hardwood Mark IV about a month ago. Look for item # 220039631771 in the advanced search completed listings section of Ebay. This sweet deal was obviously all a scam. The seller was a registered user at the time the auction ended, but none of the phone #'s would work and he said he couldn't accept Paypal. He had somewhat logical reasons for both, but I could never contact him by phone. One of the phone #'s that he called from came up as 000-012-3456. This phone # does not exist. BEWARE of things that seem too good to be true.

 

[Elpelotero]

Aramism,

I was actually looking at that amp also....

It has all the features: EQ, Simul (this is very nice and rare!), and the 105trans. (which is the BIG block you see on the back left).

HOWEVER: beware about this being a real C+. You never know until you look at the chassis pictures and have an expert analyze them, OR, CALL MESA with the serial number to see if it was actually modded into a C+.
This guy looks good, but like JOEY B. said, there are signs to watch for. It's going for real cheap though so you may want to consider it nontheless. Talk to the seller and see what he's about.

 

[Aramism]

i emailed him about ending the acution early he goes yes

then i ask him about the model number and the alidity of the serial number


no repsonse for 2 days!!!

 

[igfraso]

Nice one ElPelotero. Just to add some info, I know for a fact that some early Mark III (black dots/stripes) came with the 105 transformer.

My mark III black dot simulclass, comes with the X101 transformer.
Regards

 

[Aramism]

would you owners/experts of mark series say that a iii is closer to a iic+ or a iv.

like i said i like the rhytym tone of the mark iv and the lead tone of the mark iic+


some say get the iv cuz it has both... but i wanna exhaust my options with the iii first cuz its cheaper than iv or iic+

 

[user 2126]

... but i wanna exhaust my options with the iii first cuz its cheaper than iv or iic+

I really don't think so. There nothing cheap or cheaper made at Mesa Boogie, only different.

 

[newtomesa]

I think he meant in price ^

 

[vcamargo99]

Go to the RIGS & TONES on this site. Their are several posts were you can hear sooo many different Mesa/Booogies. So far they all sound amazing. I play lots of "classic Rock" so the III's (blue) spongier feel helped me get the tone *I* was looking for.

Check here for "clips"

http://forum.grailtone.com/viewforum.php?f=15

 

[schnarf]

Also keep in mind that for the petrucci lead tone, he's said in interviews that he always wanted something more out of the IIC+ for leads. He either boosted it with a pedal, or used a recto or mark IV for leads.

 

[Tremendo]

How can you tell what transformer it is? I have a Mark III Green Simulclass (Eq, verb, wood, cane) I ordered custom and directly from Mesa in 1989, and it doesn't say any of these #'s on the power transformer. Tomorrow I've got a gig and will use it through my 1960AHW slant 4x12 with the re-issue G30's and this setup totally rocks.

Nice one ElPelotero. Just to add some info, I know for a fact that some early Mark III (black dots/stripes) came with the 105 transformer.

My mark III black dot simulclass, comes with the X101 transformer.
Regards

 

[Elpelotero]

on the outside of the trans. are numbers that are engraved.

 

[Tremendo]

on the outside of the trans. are numbers that are engraved.

Yes, I see them. But none llok like the #'s mentioned here.

BTW - This amp rocked at the gig today. Never blown a tube nore fuse since new in 1989!

 

[Nick_cor]

I don't get this thing about power transformers ... if the mark IIC+ is so great beacuse of the 105 power trasnformer why not find an amp that has the circuit board the same as the C+ and just get the transformer rewired to get output the same as the 105... w hich means having to get the schematics for it... just my 2 cents