LSC: Going to the Head... speaker cab advice

[djw]

Ok, I have escalated the idea of converting my 1x12 LSC combo (PIG) to a head and cab configuration.

Does anyone who has done this have any regrets?

Head owners, any speaker cabinet recommendations? Or things to avoid?

I have a variety of speakers lying around, and am trying to decide whether to go 1x12 or 2x12. If portability is the goal, 1x12 seems like the best route. I just don't want to mess with the mojo too much... you know?

I was thinking about just going with a Lopoline convertible or maybe an Avatar open back, or saving my bucks for a Freda, which I hear good things about.
Whaddaya think?

PS Oh yeah, I play mostly Funk and R&B, jazzy stuff, but on the edgy side and I like a lot of bark with my bite, if you know what I mean.

 

[plan-x]

One of these days, I don't know? Maybe? I'll give it a whirl. Go for it. Anyways, you want something different but good? Try the Lopoline 2x12 diagonal cab. I actually don't have one, but I built a copy (convertible) based on the dimensions from the web site. Highly underated cab! I do have the Lopo 2x12 convertible, standard size and, am not impressed. Although it's built well, just doesn't have enough "Big cab" tone. Both those cabs sound better with one speaker removed. Remember my "detuned" thread. I have a couple of 1x12's(1 closed back and 1 convertible) lopo knock off's from AB audio. This cat must of snatched lopo's blue prints or something cause I can't tell the difference in their build and they're in the same neck of the woods. Anyway, the AB audio cabs cost less, if you can believe that! The cat's name is Jesus (Hey-sues) and will build to custom requests. The standard 1x12's (tiny little box, easy lift) sound decent. I usually use 2 of them and spread them out. In the future I will get an oversized 1x12. I think that is the way to go. Big sound, portability, and will be big enough to set the Pig's head on, those 1x12's I mentioned are to small unless I put them together side by side. I've got another head Btw that's slightly smaller than a pig, incase you were thinking, doesn't he have a combo? So that's my ramble. Were you going to order one from Mesa, or custom built? My only concern would be (custom build) obtaining & installing that foil stuff that the infamous screw makes contact with.

 

[djw]

Hey dude -- thanks for the feedback. I kind of suspected the Lopos might not be what I was after. Seems too good to be true. The Fredas seem like a really good way to go, they're lightweight and front ported, and claim to have great low end response and spread. They're just a little pricey.

And good point about the 5th screw foil... I was going to order the head shell from http://www.saxon-cabs.ca/ -- http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=36942 was the thread that sent me there, and I got a quote at $120CAD + shipping, which is a good deal. I'm still on the fence, since I don't have the speaker cab part figured out yet... monees are so tight right now that maybe I need to wait until I have everything lined up before I make a move.

I guess my goal is to lighten up and compact my rig so I can move about more easily. I don't have the luxury of leaving my amp set up at rehearsal these days, so I move it a lot. The wheels help considerably, as does the fact that my car is a liftback and the amp slides right in... anyway it's is all basically fine, but I'm not getting younger. So I think I want to go with a smaller cab if anything -- maybe a Lonestar cab if one just happened to come up available, but again I like the idea of going lightweight.

Also, I'd love to be able to use my Marshall once in a while without lugging the 4x12 around.

Any other head users have a favorite cab?

 

[Mork]

My Lonestar widebody 1x12 cab is light enough and sounds great. (Had to get the widebody to match my head...amp head, not my head )

 

[Charles Reeder]

Hey djw:

Yeah it's me: I had been thinking of posting my experiences (combo-versus head-cabinet) and (1 X 12 (cab-or-combo) versus 2 X 12 (cab-or combo). So, I decided to post here rather than email you directly.

I have used 'all' of these variations now in home and 'more-importantly' in gigging situations off and on for several years now.

My conclusions based on my specific tone preferences are:

There is at best a marginal difference in tone between a combo 1 X 12 and a 1 X12 cabinet and head. Likewise; there is little differnce between using a 2 X 12 combo and a 2 X12 cab and head.

Currently I use a 1 X12 combo at a venue where I leave the amp and use a 1 X 12 head/cabinet as my portable rig.

That said: Here's why I use 1 X12 versions.

There is a HUGE difference in sound between a 1 X12 combo and a 2 X12 combo!
Likewise; there is the same dramatic difference between a 1 X 12 cabinet with head...and a 2 X12 cabinet with head.

The 1 x12 versions (either as combo or as head/cabinet) win hands down tone-wise over the 2 X 12 versions! In my opinion. With the 1 X12 versions; the sound is larger, more robust with GREATLY increased dynamics. The bass is fuller but more distinct. The highs are clearer with less phase-cancellation.

BobL. gave some advise on speaker choices which I consider excellent! However,I chose a slightly different path towards solving my speaker dilemna...but it was based at least partially on the insights he shared with everyone.

I had become discouraged with Celestions in my Lonestars as most were either too-muddy or too harsh (for my tastes) and had 'written-them-off' as a result. A mistake on my part.
I didn't want to use the excellent JBL D-120,s for two reasons: #1 being their expense, but more important to me, #2; they were just too-darned-efficient! I figured I wouldn't be able to turn the Lonestar up high enough to achieve a warm tone or sufficient power-tube-breakup.

I had a few original (1980's) Celestion G12T-75's which sounded muddier than I thought they should. I had read in some postings by the illustrious Mr. Weber (and by others on other sights) about 'reviving' or rejuvenating older speakers. It seems that over time (way after normal breakin) they begin to dry-out and lose some of their frequency responce. So I tried the 'rejuvenation' on my G12T-75's and then tried them in the Lonestar. The sound was excellent after the treatment. It had been quite 'lack-luster' beforehand. But, the G12T-75's are not for everyone; They have a pared off midrange which gives them a somewhat 'dry' tone which I find really good for bright country tones and reproduces the sought after 'crucnch'-tone favored in some rock well enough....but...what I call the 'wet' or 'flute-like' overtones and harmonics of the SRV-tone are not well achieved with this speaker. IMHO.

So I bought a few JBL E-120 speakers. If you are not familiar with them; they have HUGE 109 ounce ceramic magnet structures that dwarf even the popular Electrovoice EV12L series. The ones I received did not sound up-to-snuff as they were. After all they were 80's vintage and well past being merely broken in...so I tried the 'rejuvenation' treatment on them as well. Wallah! I got the 'wet' responce I was seeking with complex harmonics, brilliant highs and firm bass.

NOTE! If you should happen to buy one of these; Be absolutely certain that it has the original 'accordian' edge suspension (or was reconed with a proper JBL type kit). Some of the ones reconed with 'after-market' kits do not have the flexible edges needed to reproduce the lows as well as the originals.

Another alternative is the Eminence 'Commonwealth'. It is the same speaker as the JBL E-120 (more or less) with the proper style 'flexible' accordian edge. However, as it was apparently manufactured to mimic a vintage older speaker...(the speaker-cone is finished to mimic a well used original JBL E-120) it lacked the chimey upoper-mids and high-end of an original NEW JBL E-120.
So I had to use the 'rejuvination treatment' on the Eminence 'Commonwealths' too.

I currently use both the Celestion G12T-75 and JBL E-120's or Eminence 'Commonwealths'. I like them all...but they sound nothing alike. It's a matter of making a choice between them according to your application. Of course you could always chose to have two 1 X 12 cabinets (one with the G12T-75 and the other with either the JBL E-120 or the Eminence 'Commonwealth'). Hey come-on! Don't you really love a valid excuse to buy more gear? I do!

So what is the 'rejuvenation treatment' to which I refer? BTWon't take my word for it; check it out on-line. You mix plain old white 'School-Glue' with an equal amount of water. You then very carefully brush it on to the cone of the speaker starting where the cone meets the accordian edge (Do Not Treat the edge) and work your way to the center of the cone. Do it slowly without too much of the mix on your brush. Avoid drips that threaten to build up at the dust cap. Do Not Treat the dust cap. You keep applying over and over (at one sitting) until the cone stops absorbing the mix. Let it dry well for a day or two.
IMPORTANT: Do Not apply more on subsequent days. The mix would not penetrate into the cone but instead it would build-up on the surface of the cone ruining your frequency response rather than helping it. Remember...keep brushing on the mix and do it all in one sitting until the cone will not absorb any more. Then let dry for several days.

There is also a treatment for the accordian edges involving 'rubber-cement'. Useful if you have a 'floppy' or 'loose' bass responce or suffer from 'ghost-notes' in any of your speakers. Refer to the web for info on this procedure.

Regards: Charles

 

[plan-x]

Interesting Charles! Before we write off 2x12's, I have found one redeeming character of them. Volume and headroom. I'm not a big fan of celestions as well. But the C-90 is one of the best ones from celestion. I currently have a Weber Blue dog with my C-90 in my 2x12 combo. Sitting on top of a 2x12 ext Closed back with 1 speaker in it (weber silver bell). The empty speaker hole acts as a front port (detuned). I often unplug one of the speakers in my combo, running essentially two 1x12's. And that is the best sound I can get out of this rig.

Mixing speakers gets me all the weird stuff washed out. Such as high/mid spikes, low end mud, etc. I have a Mojotone BV-30V that I run out of a another detuned 2x12 cab. It sounds great! So far the best single speaker I have found that doesn't cost an arm or a leg. So, 1x12's, sound the best provided they're in an adequate cab. Usually large enough for good resonation. The Freda cab djw mentioned looks like a winner. Front loaded, front ported, closed back, with some depth at minimum 13".

When I play a gig that requires some volume and headroom, say outdoors or large venue, then I plug in and load those 2x12's up. Otherwise I get no headroom in those situations.

 

[djw]

Hi guys -- hey, it's a party!

Thanks for all the info -- this is all really helpful. I've heard about the "refreshing" process before (maybe from Weber?). And I've definitely been paying attention to plan-x's detuned cab observations, which is one more reason why I have not just jumped on the 2x12 idea. Weird, but seemingly true. Also, headroom is not a real need for me for the most part, since I currently play in situations which call for moderate volume, and every move I've made has been in the interests of getting better sound at lower levels. And I still have my Marshall 4x12, so I can always retube with 6L6s and crank through that if I need to move some serious air. (I've said it before, but the LSC through that 1960A cab sounds absolutely awesome -- I put Mojotones in there long ago, and they do sound great)

I have to sheepishly admit today, however, that trying to balance out the convenience requirements (easy to move) with the performance requirements (must sound bad-assed) has steered me out of my current budget... I'm less than halfway there in other words, if I want to go with something that meets all criteria (e.g., Freda or Port City or even a Mesa). For the time being, that is. I still plan on making this happen I think, I just have to regain my patience and composure and save those nickels.

Got a show tonight at the Boom Boom Room in SF, and I'm actually happy I'll be moving one piece on wheels, rather than two without (though I can always get a handtruck I guess). So this week is about not fixing what isn't broken...

Thanks again guys. I'm still interested in feedback about specific cabinets and speakers and whatnot, or thoughts from people who've made the switch from combo to head.

 

[plan-x]

So I had to use the 'rejuvination treatment' on the Eminence 'Commonwealths' too.

Charles, you treated a new speaker?

 

[Charles Reeder]

Hey plan-x:

Yes I have treated several new speakers. I have treated a new Eminence 'Commonwealth' and 2 'relatively new' Mesa/Celestion C-90's. Before ANYONE considers this I emphasize that they do it ONLY if they are not completely pleased with the current high end response (especially 'shimmer') of the speake as is.

I always liked the rich complex, harmonics of the C-90..however I felt they failed in the 'clarity' of the high end. They had a pretty high frequency response...but the highs were 'muddy' and too 'slurred' (for lack of a better word) for me. The treatment brought a 'crispness' and clarity that was lacking before treatment. I like my C-90's much more now. It is possible that this treatment might actually be all some people who are currently less than pleased with their C-90's need to do in order to get the sound they're after.

This was EXACTLY the reason I treated the new Eminence 'Commonwealth' and the vintage JBL E-120's. As age dries out speakers (apparently) the cone flexes more and does not reproduce the highs as accurately or loudly. The glue/water treatment penetrates the cone and stiffens it...plus the mix gives a slicker surface to the cone which aids the highs. The back of the cone which remains untreated allows the excess moisture to escape and evaporate. It would seem (just a guess of mine) that a lot of newly made speakers are designed to emulate well worn vintage speakers. The desire for this 'worn' sound is actually a new phenomenom...as a worn speaker is a 'low-fidelity' speaker. Tales from the recording industry recount the practice of having their studio monitors 're-treated' every year (every 2 years at max) in order to return them to high fidelity response.

I have also treated an original vintage Electrovoice EVM 12S...and it sounds MUCH better. It now sounds excellent with both my Lonestars and my Stiletto.

Have done it to several older (vintage) ALNICO speakers which I use in smaller amps. Have also done a slightly used Weber Blue Dog and a Weber Blue Pup (both which are alnico versions). The change in the Webers was less noticeable...but still a slight improvement to me.

I treated 2 older Celestion Vintage 30's that had lost their zing. I had owned these two for years and remembered how nice they had sounded once upon a time. The process returned them to their 'glory days' soundwise.

Above all. The use and results of this treatment are HIGHLY SUBJECTIVE andf if anyone else's particular 'gripe' with a current speaker isn't the same as mine...they might be better off leaving their speaker untreated.

Also, I remind everyone: Do Not treat the 'surround' (the accordion edge) of the speaker with the glue/water treatment. It's an entirely seperate issue but the 'surround' can be treated with rubber cement if needed. I've done that too on occasion...the method can be found on the web.

Charles

 

[plan-x]

Thanks Charles, I'm going to keep this in mind. I actually have a really old altec PA speaker I can experiment with.

 

[plan-x]

I put Mojotones in there long ago, and they do sound great)

You talkin about those British green back knock offs BV-25's?

 

[djw]

I put Mojotones in there long ago, and they do sound great)

You talkin about those British green back knock offs BV-25's?

I'm embarrassed to say I have no idea. It was ages ago, like 1994 or something... they were recommended to me by a friend who ran Univibe in Berkeley (jeez, I miss that place), and I just took his word for it and replaced the Celestions that were in there. The cab really started barking after that. It was a good move, but I don't know what model they are (I think they aren't even marked, honestly).

 

[djw]

Actually, now that I think about it... I may have done something crazy and gone in the other direction: I think I went with something that was closer to a low-wattage Jensen.

Yeah, I think so. Weird, huh? Maybe that's why I get such a uniquely cool sound out of it....

 

[plan-x]

And I've definitely been paying attention to plan-x's detuned cab observations, which is one more reason why I have not just jumped on the 2x12 idea. Weird, but seemingly true.

You can try it with your 4x12.
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/archive/index.php/t-78737.html