Low stage volumes with a DR

[cyber104]

Hi all
Recently my son has played a bunch of shows with his DR and the sound guy likes the stage volumes extremely low. We've pulled 2 power tubes but at the volumes this guy wants us to play at the DR is simply a fizz box. Any thoughts on what to do here besides buy a smaller amp?

Hot Plate perhaps?

Thanks!
Chris

 

[Elpelotero]

I think you've figured out the solution there already with your ideas.

I'd also suggest finding a different venue where the soundman can let you open the amp more.

 

[screamingdaisy]

Skip the Hotplate. Most of the problem is the speakers are being under-driven, which is something the Hotplate won't fix.

My suggestion is to use Spongy mode and have him practice at the volumes he's forced to gig at... that way he'll eventually re-EQ the amp so that it sounds better at low volumes.

Also, have him roll off the tone pot on his guitar a little bit. I've found that feeding a little less treble into the amp cuts the fizz without choking the amp off via the amps treble/presence knobs.

Lastly, sometimes "your amp is too loud" is the polite way for the sound man to say "you sound like sh*t". If he's using a straight cab and he's EQ'd his amp to sound good when he's standing off axis and a few feet in front of it his tone could sound like an ear piercing mess 40 feet out front.

Or, the sound man could be one of those guys that doesn't understand sound reinforcement and makes bands turn right down to compensate. Not much you can do to fix this one outside of buying the man a beer or two and getting on his good side.

 

[cyber104]

It's really just the sound guy - he likes the stage volumes so low that everyone can actually talk while theyre playing without yelling

If it was the fact that the speakers werent being driven hard wouldn't all Amps sound bad at low volumes?

 

[YellowJacket]

Been there, done that, and I'm still pissed off years later!!!

I'm investigating other possibilities for getting good tones at 'low' volumes. So far the Torpedo Live cab load box / cab and mic sim seems the most promising. Use the cab for a monitor and throw the tone of a cranked halfstack through the mains!!!

Is it worth $1,000? That's entirely up to you.

MY best 'low volume' solution for a DR has been to run it through a 2 x 12 ( or 1 x 12, if you can find a good one) and run EL-34s with two power tubes pulled / one rectifier pulled. You can switch the amp to 'spongy', 'tube rectifier', and run it in vintage high gain mode with the gain up at about 1:30. This is about the best you can do without seriously neutering the amp and it should sound decent live. Question: How does the drummer cope with this? In my experience, once a drummer is playing one can get enough volume to get a good tone while playing live. This soundman must be a bit crazy.

 

[screamingdaisy]

If it was the fact that the speakers werent being driven hard wouldn't all Amps sound bad at low volumes?

Not all amps are 100w high gain monsters.

 

[R_ADKINS80]

have him look for a little control on his board called "mic trim" or "mic gain". Most sound guys I have encountered are idiots and want to run their mic volume wide open which means the stage volume is too low for the band.

 

[ryjan]

This is where a POD HD500 really comes in handy. They sound better through a PA than a half stack mic'd up at low volume. Save your tubes for the larger venues.

 

[markblasco]

A little perspective from a sound engineer who has run sound for a ton of bands, who is also a guitar player:

The truth is, most guitarists have their amps too loud. While it may give them the tone they want, it ends up causing problems for the audience. Guitar speakers are very directional in their sound, so if someone in the audience is straight in front of it they may be hearing ear bleeding midrange nastyness, while someone towards the side of the stage isn't hearing much of that at all. PA speakers, on the other hand, are designed to spread the sound out evenly throughout the room, allowing everyone to hear the same thing.

Having the amps at a reduced volume, and allowing the sound engineer to provide most of the room volume from the PA, allows for several things. They can put the volume at a good level that mixes with the rest of the band, and can adjust throughout the night to make it fit as things change. They can also EQ the sound so that it fits well with the rest of the band, allowing the overall mix to sound better for the audience.

So, if the goal is to reduce the volume coming from the guitar amp to the audience, but you don't want to turn down your amp too much, there are a few solutions. One is to get a smaller cab, something like a 1X12 (or even wiring up a larger cab so that you can turn off some of the speakers). Another option which works really well if you have monitors is to turn your cabs around, to face either the side of the stage, or even the back of the stage. Since the sound from guitar cabs is so directional, just turning it to the side can reduce the signal going out into the room significantly. A Hot Plate or other similar device works for this as well, as a lot of the fizzyness goes away once the preamp and power amp start to get pushed harder.

Now, your sound guy may be unreasonable, but it also may be that the venue wants volumes at a certain level, and that's just the way it is. If there are monitors for the band to hear themselves with, than it's time to start working on dialing in a good tone at lower volumes. Even if it isn't perfect, it will likely yield a better result than having the amp turned up too loud for the venue.

I know many guitar players will disagree with me, but my experience has always been that the band will sound better when most of the volume comes from the PA. Once the volume is all coming from the amps on stage, the sound person can no longer control levels and tones, and what you end up with is a bunch of instruments that may sound fantastic on their own, but don't gel well in the room, which makes everyone sound worse.

Now, if you are playing a show with minimal PA support (just vocals and a few other small things), this doesn't apply, and your amp needs to carry the room, but if you have a room with a good sized PA, that's where most of the sound should be coming from.

 

[ryjan]

Great post Mark. I've assisted a couple of sound engineers and learned a lot about what goes on behind the mixer. Having a guitarist that is louder than the room will support is a pain. Yes, the amp sounds killer at that volume but the mix will be terrible.
I'd suggest an ISO cab or one of these ported cabs from Avatar.

 

[markblasco]

Oh yeah, if you can use one of those monitor cabs that will help to kill 2 birds with one stone. The guitarist can stand directly in front of the speaker, and the volume leaking out from the stage is minimized.

Another suggestion, if you have access to any type of recording equipment, is to play for a little bit with your amp turned down, and put a mic in front of it (sm57 is standard). Start moving the mic around, and find a spot where you like the sound in the recording. Put a square of tape around this point on the speaker grill. This allows you to have the sound engineer put the mic in the same place, which helps them to get the sound you want into the PA. This won't prevent them from altering it to sit in the mix, but at least you know that they are starting out close to the sound you are trying to get.

And it also helps to remember that most sound engineers do actually like running sound, and do want your band to sound good. Unfortunately, what makes for a good mix and a happy audience is different than what makes for a killer stage guitar sound. Some venues run their volumes really loud and the band can go crazy with their amps. Some venues want people to be able to have a conversation and the stage volume has to be really low. There's nothing you can do about it, but if you are friendly and work with the sound engineer, you are more likely to get asked back and keep a good reputation.

Here's another thing that may help a little: http://www.webervst.com/blocker.html Beam Blockers help to spread out the sound from the speaker cabs, so you don't get that mid frequency death ray screaming directly from the cabinet. If you've got a 4X12 and you put these on 3 of the speakers (leave the 4th one alone for the mic), that would help to spread out the sound. It won't reduce the volume exactly, but will even things out a bit.

 

[cyber104]

Wow! some great information and great ideas - thanks very much!

We are always courteous to the sound guy and do as he asks - it would be counter-productive to do otherwise

He makes the band sound great - it's just when I sit directly in front of that 2x12 rectifier cabinet I ask myself "why is that so fizzy"

It could also be the way the DR is EQ'd - I noticed that much of the fizz comes out when the treble is past 12:00

Again, thanks for all the ideas - well get it worked out eventually

 

[markblasco]

Try this: Turn the treble and presence all the way down, and the mids all the way up. Adjust the bass so that it sounds good to you, then turn it down a notch from there (guitars really don't need much bass when you've got a bass guitar). Now, start fiddling with the treble and presence to get just enough high end so that it doesn't sound muffled.

This might be a good way to find a lower volume tone. Once you do this, try turning it up, and you may find that you like the sound.

 

[ryjan]

This is why I miss my old Mark IV. Class A, Tweed power, triode. Mouse farts can be heard.
No sound reinforcement for the guitar amps? No problem. Simul-class, full power, pentode. Death to all kittens!

 

[YellowJacket]

A little perspective from a sound engineer who has run sound for a ton of bands, who is also a guitar player:

The truth is, most guitarists have their amps too loud. While it may give them the tone they want, it ends up causing problems for the audience. Guitar speakers are very directional in their sound, so if someone in the audience is straight in front of it they may be hearing ear bleeding midrange nastyness, while someone towards the side of the stage isn't hearing much of that at all. PA speakers, on the other hand, are designed to spread the sound out evenly throughout the room, allowing everyone to hear the same thing.

Having the amps at a reduced volume, and allowing the sound engineer to provide most of the room volume from the PA, allows for several things. They can put the volume at a good level that mixes with the rest of the band, and can adjust throughout the night to make it fit as things change. They can also EQ the sound so that it fits well with the rest of the band, allowing the overall mix to sound better for the audience.

So, if the goal is to reduce the volume coming from the guitar amp to the audience, but you don't want to turn down your amp too much, there are a few solutions. One is to get a smaller cab, something like a 1X12 (or even wiring up a larger cab so that you can turn off some of the speakers). Another option which works really well if you have monitors is to turn your cabs around, to face either the side of the stage, or even the back of the stage. Since the sound from guitar cabs is so directional, just turning it to the side can reduce the signal going out into the room significantly. A Hot Plate or other similar device works for this as well, as a lot of the fizzyness goes away once the preamp and power amp start to get pushed harder.

Now, your sound guy may be unreasonable, but it also may be that the venue wants volumes at a certain level, and that's just the way it is. If there are monitors for the band to hear themselves with, than it's time to start working on dialing in a good tone at lower volumes. Even if it isn't perfect, it will likely yield a better result than having the amp turned up too loud for the venue.

I know many guitar players will disagree with me, but my experience has always been that the band will sound better when most of the volume comes from the PA. Once the volume is all coming from the amps on stage, the sound person can no longer control levels and tones, and what you end up with is a bunch of instruments that may sound fantastic on their own, but don't gel well in the room, which makes everyone sound worse.

Now, if you are playing a show with minimal PA support (just vocals and a few other small things), this doesn't apply, and your amp needs to carry the room, but if you have a room with a good sized PA, that's where most of the sound should be coming from.

I got rid of my 4 x 12 for this reason, my recto had to be cranked to get an open and responsive tone. The speakers were a huge contributing factor here, something that I discovered in time. I currently play an Electra Dyne head with a 1 x 12 cab now. The speaker can work harder and I find that with a drummer, I can get the amp working hard enough to get a great tone. I'm definitely going to mark out the sweet spots on both my cabs for micing purposes. I find guitar amps sound different depending where one stands so ultimately, it makes way more sense to dial in a good tone with a known mic position and record until there is a recorded tone that sounds great.

 

[benjamin801]

If it was the fact that the speakers werent being driven hard wouldn't all Amps sound bad at low volumes?

All amps pushing V30s do sound bad at low volumes. :lol:

 

[markblasco]

I got rid of my 4 x 12 for this reason, my recto had to be cranked to get an open and responsive tone. The speakers were a huge contributing factor here, something that I discovered in time. I currently play an Electra Dyne head with a 1 x 12 cab now. The speaker can work harder and I find that with a drummer, I can get the amp working hard enough to get a great tone. I'm definitely going to mark out the sweet spots on both my cabs for micing purposes. I find guitar amps sound different depending where one stands so ultimately, it makes way more sense to dial in a good tone with a known mic position and record until there is a recorded tone that sounds great.

It always makes me a bit sad when people complain about their guitar sounding terrible through the PA, and that the sound tech must not know what they are doing. The truth is, every player wants their guitar to sound different, and most sound checks are just long enough to make sure everything is working right. There isn't an extra 20 minutes to spend tweaking everything to get the tone that the guitar player wants.

Spending a little time at home to find the best sounding spot on the speaker means that every time you have a different sound person running sound, they will at least be starting at a good tonal place for you. If you're serious about your tone, I'd even suggest buying a microphone mount that will attach to the guitar cab, and bringing your own mic, so that the sound going into the PA is exactly the same every single time.

If most guitar players are willing to spend $200 on a third boutique fuzz pedal which sounds slightly different than the other 2 on their board, they should be willing to spend that money on buying an SM57 and a mount to attach to their cabinet. This will go much further towards getting their tone to stay good at every venue than buying more pedals.

 

[screamingdaisy]

I was looking into those bolt on mic mounts and I was told they'd cause problems due to the cab vibrations traveling directly down the boom into the mic.

Any thoughts?

 

[benjamin801]

I was looking into those bolt on mic mounts and I was told they'd cause problems due to the cab vibrations traveling directly down the boom into the mic.

Any thoughts?

I don't think they cause any problems whatever. I've used them live and in the studio.

 

[markblasco]

I was looking into those bolt on mic mounts and I was told they'd cause problems due to the cab vibrations traveling directly down the boom into the mic.

Any thoughts?

My thoughts are, if you have so much bass coming from your cab that you're getting vibrations that effect the mic, than your bass control needs to be turned down. On a bass amp I could understand it, since the low frequencies are very loud, but I can't imagine a situation where this would happen with a guitar unless the tone was way off.

Also, the premise of this conversation is trying to come up with a solution for low stage volume. As the volume is turned down, and possibility of low frequency vibration is also reduced.

As long as you have your mic and attachments tight enough so that nothing is rattling or loose, you should be fine.

If you still aren't sure if it will work, try this: Have someone else play through your amp, and while they are playing, put your hand on the top of the cab and feel it. I can't imagine that you'll feel more than an ever so slight vibration, if anything at all.