Lonestar Special 5Y3 rectifier alternatives, anyone?

[thinskin57]

i'm wondering if there's anyone out there with FIRSTHAND long-term experience with substituting the 5Y3 rect tube in the LSS. I've read of people recommending the 5V4, but they weren't LSS owners. MB tech support told me what works in another amp (Maverick?) won't work in the LSS... however, i'm skeptical so here i am. i've had mine for a month now (212 combo) and blew my first rect tube last night along w/the fuse. shortly after, i found this site and became a bit freaked by the frequency of this issue w/mesa's 5Y3's so here i am. i'd also be interested if anyone has any success stories of using any NOS 5Y3's long-term. thanks to anyone who can help.

Steve.

 

[edgarallanpoe]

Thinskin...I put a post on the other thread about the update offered by Mesa. There are 4 service centers in Mass. They might not be around the block, but shipping should be a lot less than shipping to CA. The warranty centers should do this update free of charge, you would just be out shipping costs. I hope this helps.

FWIW, I had a switching problem with my RKI and the local center fixed it free of charge. Mesa simply sends them a care package and instructions.

 

[thinskin57]

E.A. Poe- thanks! i was aware of the centers in MA but though it had to be performed at the factory. good to know, thanks again!

 

[stokes]

The problem is not with the amp itself,it is the crap 5Y3 that Mesa uses.Find a good NOS 5Y3 or for even more reliable service,use the 5V4.Mesa will tell you that you shouldnt use a 5V4,but that is a lot of marketing crap.They dont sell a 5V4.ANY AMP that uses a 5Y3 can sub a 5V4.It will give you a slightly stiffer power supply which is hardly noticeable tonewise,and will be 100% more reliable.The 5y3 is good for about 125ma,which is marginal in the 15watt tube rectifier mode on the LSS,that is why the crap 5y3 Mesa sells fries.The 5V4 is good for about 175ma's.It will drop about 25 volts dc less than the 5Y3,but that wont hurt the tone or the amp at all.

 

[thinskin57]

hey stokes- have you done this with YOUR Lonestar Special? i'm on the fence w/the 5V4 until i hear somebody's been doing it successfully for a good amount of time. i've heard some people say you can do it, and others who think you're crazy to do it. i'm a very hesitant gambler until i can find a sure thing. in the meantime i just rec'd a NOS RCA 5Y3. we'll see how it fares. thanks for weighing in on this one.

 

[stokes]

No,I dont own a LSS.I've done it to someone elses LSS,Champs,countless Deluxe's......What you guys have to realize is that there is nothing "magical" about these Mesa amps.They are merely tube amps.Randall Smith didnt discover anything new or magical about tube amps.He,like every other amp maker have copied and used circuits that have been around for years.The only thing that makes them "more complicated" than other tube amps is the channel switching circuits.They tell you things that are aimed at making you buy their tubes.There is nothing about the LSS that a 5V4 will hurt anymore than it would hurt a Twed Deluxe or any other amp that uses a 5Y3.What is it about the 5V4 that makes you think it will hurt your amp?Anyway,you have a NOS 5Y3 now.That "should" be more reliable than the current production.I emphasize "should",because you can never be 100% sure about how a NOS tube was stored,if it was abused physically (dropped,mishandled etc.) or if in fact it has never been used.I would be more comfortable with even a used 5V4,from a reliability standpoint,than a know good 5Y3,NOS or otherwise.

 

[thinskin57]

i don't necessarily think the 5V4 would hurt it, or i wouldn't have it in my mind as a possible alternative. the truth is while i DO know different amps' characteristics and the basics of how they work, i'm no expert. maybe YOU are an expert, but i don't know for sure what your credentials are- anybody can post anything online so don't take it personal if i question ANYBODY'S recommendation. there IS bad advice all over the net, just pick a topic. i have a feeling you're right though. another reason i'm a little hesitant is that i saw a post from somebody (wish i could find the link again) saying something to the effect that the 5V4 would be passing too much voltage on to the tubes/amp and i could shorten power tube life (if i remember correctly) ...can't remember for sure. but then again, who knows what HIS credentials are?

 

[stokes]

Nothing personal taken here. Just giving my take on the subject.I totally understand your concerns about taking advice from this or any forum,you definately do have to sort things out for yourself,and be willing to take a chance to find out for yourself what is safe and what is not.As for the concern about the voltage difference,the slight difference between the 2 rectifiers will hardly be noticeable,either sonically or in tube life.As to tube life,back in the day when tubes were the state of the art,they were built to last forever but at much lower plate voltage and currents.Guitar amps today push tubes to the max and tube life is much shorter than the designers intended anyway,the couple extra volts wont make a big difference.The extra voltage between rectifiers becomes an issue if you go from,say, a 5Y3 to a SS rectifier,now you are talking about appreciable voltage jump,and in some amps even that wont be harmful.The difference tonally is an improvement in the response of the amp,a little less sag,at least to me and many who I've ever shown it to,but it isnt any drastic change,some people cant even hear a difference.If the NOS 5Y3 you have is a good one it should work fine for you,if you arent comfortable trying a 5V4,then by all means you shouldnt do it.

 

[thinskin57]

stokes- so you're saying that the SS rectifier in my amp puts more stress on the amp than a 5V4 would? i can see where that would be a tricky question because in the case of the LSS, to get the SS rectifier into the picture, you have to raise the wattage up to 30. so let's level the playing field and imagine if the LSS special didn't have selectable watt settings and was fixed at 30 watts by design, but it still had selectable rectifiers. in this case, do you still think more stress would be put on the amp with the SS rectifiers?

 

[stokes]

If the amp was "fixed at 30 watts" you wouldnt have a 5Y3 in it,not for long anyway.The reference to the 5Y3 to SS was in an amp that has just one rectifier,such as a Champ,and one wattage mode.The difference between a 5Y3 and 5V4 is,as I stated before,the 5Y3 is good for 125ma's and will drop about 50vdc across it.The 5V4 is good for 175ma's and drops only 25vdc across,giving you a wider margin for error with the 5V4.A SS has no voltage drop,so in some amps it is conceivable that the voltage you would get from a SS rectifier could be enough to do damage to an amp designed for the 5Y3.So,no, the SS rectifier in your amp is not stressing your amp too much,it is designed to handle the volts and current in that mode.The problem in that amp is the 5Y3 supplying current to a 15 watt amp,it is capable of doing it,but you are closer to the outermost limits of the 5Y3,when you push the amp,if your 5Y3 is not up to it,it will blow.As you can see from other posts on this forum,it is a problem some people have experienced with this amp.For many reasons,current production tubes are not as rugged as they were in the good old days so a lot of them fry in this application.The quick answer to this problem would be a NOS 5Y3,but a safer option would be the 5V4.Mesa says the 5V4 is not "safe" to use in this amp,as far as I know they dont sell a 5V4,so if they tell you its okay to use it,they dont sell you any more rectifier tubes.

 

[thinskin57]

yeah, it seemed common sense to me that at the 15 watt setting i'd be running the 5Y3 more on the brink of it's limits. sure enough, when my mesa 5Y3 and fuse blew, guess what setting i was on?! so i called mesa tech support who are sending me a free replacement and when i had the tech on the phone i asked him if i was more likely to blow the 5Y3 in the 15 watt setting. of course he said, "no". tech or not, i was very skeptical of his reply because it just seemed to defy the basic logic of the situation. he didn't deny that the currently available 5Y3's were sh!t though! that's why you don't see the 5Y3 offered for sale on mesa's website- they're keeping 'em all for the LSS owners.

 

[stokes]

"asked him if i was more likely to blow the 5Y3 in the 15 watt setting. of course he said, "no" So did he give a reason it did blow?It is because they have a malfunction caused by poor design,so they give away the stock of 5Y3's they have and cut thier losses.It wouldnt surprise me if after they run out of all the 5Y3's they have,they will begin selling 5V4's as a suitable replacement for the 5Y3 in that amp.

 

[thinskin57]

he blamed it entirely on the fact the current-day 5Y3 is so poorly made. i noticed in a catalog that the fender '57 reissue uses the 5Y3, but that amp is rated at 12 watts so the 5Y3 is probably a "safer" choice for its design than the LSS.

 

[twally]

I have bown (the last one quit literally) two 5Y3's while using the 5 watt mode playing in my bedroom. I play loud for bedroom but the amp's MV is set around 8:00, so not very loud overall. My fix was a NOS Jan Phillips 5Y3. With the Mesa's I blew two in about a two week time frame. The NOS has about three months of play on it, and counting.

 

[212Mavguy]

Stokes is well versed. He is going way beyond patient in trying to help. 5v4 is simply a better alternative to 5y3 in this situation. LSS is only another of thousands of guitar tube amps, not worthy of worship by any means, there are lots of great sounding amps without that amp's design flaw that is so easily gotten around, IMHO.

It is not necessary to be a LSS owner to understand what he is talking about, rather, going to the library and studying up on some tube theory from well established authors in vintage texts is in order...Like Herbert Reich, for instance. Seek to study and learn the facts, that will set you free from being misled. Frank's tube pages offers files from the original manufacturors, spec sheets and operating characteristics on any tube used in a guitar amplifier as well. Besides the book knowledge, Stokes knows what solder fumes smell like, it's a beautiful thing...

Stokes, +100 from here...Peace.

 

[stokes]

Right back at you,Mavguy.I blame Mesa for all the confusion as to what you can do with their amps. They make some great amps,but they really put out a lot of bad info,all in the name of selling more tubes,IMO.

 

[thinskin57]

"Worship"? is very presumptuous on your part, Mav212. However- I
own, have owned, or have auditioned amps from the likes of Fender,
Marshall, Carr, Dr. Z, Carvin, VHT, Swart, Bogner, Bad Cat, Orange,
other Mesa models- including a Maverick, and others that were even less
memorable to recall right now. So far, the LSS is easily my favorite
to
date. Although I am ecstatic with the sounds (especially the cleans)
of
my LSS212, I'm full aware there's always something better out
there.
I just haven't come across it yet. If my NOS RCA 5Y3 fails, I WILL
give the 5V4 a try though. But if it fries my amp somehow, I'm
coming
for you and Stokes! (kidding) So just for the record- I worship NO
piece of gear, nor do I plan on studying their design- I don't have
that kind of free time. That's why I ask questions on this forum.
Plus, I'd rather trust my ears and just play.

 

[212Mavguy]

Hi thinskin 57,

No offense meant, and I stand by my post. Thanks to stokes also. Best of luck to you with your LSS.

 

[stokes]

Thinskin,I dont think Mavguy was being literal or insultive using the term "worship",but rather, as I have noticed too, a lot of Mesa owners seem to think there is something "magical" about the amps and that what counts for other amps is somehow different than what can be done to a Boogie.They say you cant use a 5V4 in that amp,well that is just pure B.S.They say if you use any tube than theirs or for some reason GT's you will void your warranty,its obvious where they are going with that.I am not knocking your approach to your gear,not wanting to know the tech end of things,most players feel the same as you,and that keeps us techs in business.But Mesa takes it a step further and fills your heads with ideas that keep them selling tubes.If you take a look at some the things Randall Smith has written,for instance that his "fixed bias" amps are somehow different and "special".Well,the very first Bassman had exactly the same bias set-up,back in the early '50's.Many other amps used and still do use the same set-up.I am not anti Mesa,although I do sound it.I own 2 Boogies and think they are great amps,but they are corporately driven these days,and the bottom line is the profit margin,its just the way of business in this world.I hope that NOS 5Y3 lasts you a lifetime,I am a big proponent of NOS and have every confidence it should hold up in that amp,but dont be afraid to try the 5V4 if it fails,contrary to what Mesa says,it is safe and a more reliable tube for that application.All the best.

 

[thinskin57]

maybe Mavguy wasn't being literal, but when he said that the LSS was, "not worthy of worship by any means", i initially took it as an insult on my amp choice, and therefore my ears. having said that, i am NOT a Mesa loyalist and am quite frankly very surprised that i found MY clean tone in a Mesa product of all places. i NEVER thought i'd ever own a Boogie product again since ending my 20 year addiction to high gain a few years back. BTW- why didn't you TELL ME that you were a tech? also it wasn't so much about thinking there was something "magical" about the amp, just more of a concern that if i tried the 5V4 and it somehow damaged the amp, upon sending it to Mesa, i'd get a response from them something along the lines of, "upon inspection of your amp, it was determined that too much voltage got to part "xyz", causing blah, blah, blah, and the only way that could have happened is with use of the wrong rectifier tube. as a result, your warranty is void". admittedly this thinking coming from a non-tech person who is a, "the glass is half-empty" kind of thinker, so forgive me. i totally agree with you about Mesa being corporately driven today. any company that can afford two-page color ads in multiple industry magazines all over the globe is a giant, and they all think alike. i've read some interviews in the past with Mr. Smith and he seems kinda hard-headed and sometimes angry to me. i'm VERY anti-corporate. oh sh#t, wait...i play strats and LP's! LOL what can i say- there ARE some mass-produced gems to be found out there if you look long and hard enough. so how am i anti-corporate? i NEVER, EVER, buy new. ...but i digress. i thank you and Mavguy for your thoughts and your time. i see posts from the two of you quite a bit here, so i'm sure we'll meet again. peace.