Lonestar Drive Knob - Reeder mod people might be interested

[PilotSSW]

You know I have a lonestar classic and I've my trouble with it. To me the clean channel was far more worth keeping it than the mediocre overdrive selling it off. Here's the thing with the Lonestar; the overdrive isnt bad, the EQ is! What I've found from messing around with the lonestar is that both reeder mods substantially make the learning curve and enjoyability of the amp higher. Some people will say otherwise and that's totally cool. Anyhow, swapping the gain and master will open your amp up, but even so it wont fix it all the way. Most people complain about the bass knob being the problem because they that theres too much mud with the bass up and its lifeless with the bass down. I actually love the bass knob as is and think its the one thing they did get right in the tone stack. The other three EQ knobs are another story, read on ......


For those of you who have modded your lonestars to be reeder modded with the first mod (second doesnt matter much). Set your clean tone to where you like it, now set your channel 2 to the exact same settings, switch the thick/thicker to normal and turn off your drive. A great sounding clean huh ? Now turn on your drive wherever it may be set and listen. What ? Wow what a change in tone. SWEEP it up and down, still wont sound good. In fact if you lower your gain around 10 and max the drive it will get very very harsh and this is where I think the problem with the lonestar lies.

Charles Reeder believed that Mesa threw a bone to high gain users with the EQ and I think hes right to an extent, but I believe that bone was in the drive knob with treble and a scooped mids tone. This is my problem with my overdrive right here, this drive knob.

The EQ on the Lonestar is fantastic for cleans, in fact I think it couldnt be any better, its one of the best cleans with any guitar I've ever heard, I can even make boss crap drive pedals sound fantastic through it. However the EQ is not tailored to overdrive, this is why I think mesa did that pot swap, to get it working down lower, but it just muddied up and now after the reeder mod, it sounds open but can still lack clarity sometimes. The treble will get a great smooth lead tone but lacks clarity, on the high end it actually muddies up and gets washed out. The presence doesnt do much for me.


I havent come up with any solutions yet, except for changing the drive pot which I will try eventually, but I brought this up because I thought the Reeder Mod fans might have a take on it.

Anyways its really just a cool experiment to set your channel two clean and engage that drive knob, Wow just WOW!

Anyhow its cool if you guys disagree, I just thought that this was a possible overlook for you reeder fans.

~ Sean

 

[toneguy86]

I have not done the Reeder mod. Been thinkin about it, especially as I work on dialing in some sounds I need for one of my bands. I have also thought about the EQ on C2 and why things tend to sound like that do when I either crank the gain or the drive (right now I have fixed some of my issues on C2 by cranking the drive and lowering the gain to around 10 or noon). Honestly I don't notice the issue in some venues. In fact, I recently played at a big festival and was totally diggin everything about my sound. Sometimes though there is just something missing no matter what I do. I won't hear it at home--usually on the band stand and then only in some venues. The issue is on the high end and it is a certain ring and muddiness that I can't dial out. The other night I seemed to fix it somewhat by bringing the treble down ever so slightly and it seems that it is really an issue with the presense up beyond noon. I keep the presense these days at about 11:00 on both channels.

All in all I love this amp. I just have a struggle in this area. I'm headed out tomorrow night to play at a place that is typically a challenge soundwise and I have been messing around with tubes, settings, etc. to work on some of this issue. Right now it seems dialed in...but then we will see. May have to at least do the Reeder mod at some point.

Mark

 

[PilotSSW]

Dont get me wrong, its one of my favorites, but with the overdrive I just can't seem to get a good high gain sound from the amp. It was never built for high gain, so what I usually do is set the drive for my rythym sound and boost it with my SD Twin Tube classic.

I just found the high gain settings to be muddy in the low end and harsh in the top, lower gain sounds like john mayer and Eric Johnson with a little more mids almost.

I really havent the slightest clue how Andy gets his overdrive out of this thing, I can't come close, his amp doesnt sound much like a lonestar to me, I mean it is very, very midsy just like he wants, but I really can't get his high type tones from it like he does.


~ Sean

 

[oilpit]

I don't mean to derail this thread, but is the OP implying that the Lonestar has scooped mids?
I find it to be just the opposite, even with the mids at 0, it doesn't really sound scooped to me...

As for the rest of the post, I don't even use the drive knob that much, I just set the gain low, and then dime the master volume, for a nice warm power amp crunch...

 

[PilotSSW]

Nahh, just the drive knob. The amp its self is very, VERY midsy. I just meant that the DRIVE knob sounds like its kind of scooped.

If you turn your gain way down and drive way up, listen to the difference in EQ. The difference is about the same as what you can do with the actual EQ knobs, its huge !

As for scooped mids, not a chance, sorry if you misunderstood me or I worded something poorly. I love the open back cabs and sweet mids, I've always been a mids kind of guitar player.

Usually I can't open the amp up enough to get that kind of crunch, the volume difference between 10 watts and 100 doesnt really seem that big, at least to me.

Like I said, its a great amp, I'm just having trouble getting a high gain tone out of it, when I'm playing I loose that really fat, gorgeous tone I get on the cleaner sides, no matter how the amp is set.

~ Sean

 

[PilotSSW]

Ok well this thread has quite a few views, but no ones talking. Anyone else try the experiment and have any luck ? I'm going to try the Reeder Mod #2 and see if this solves my problem, I've had very good luck pushing the masters way up while using the effects loop and it really adds some upper mids back, something I would have never guessed in any other amp.

Anyways, I'm curious to see if other people are seeing the same thing I did with the drive knob or if my lonestar may have a defect or my ears are just a little too sensitive.

Happy tweaking,
~ PilotSSW

 

[djw]

Hey Pilot, some sorta random thoughts in response...

First question: have you fiddled with different preamp tubes? I don't remember if you mentioned this... but it makes a HUGE difference. Huge. Also, I've gone with using a 5751 in V2, which like is a lower gain version of a 12ax7; the effect is to relegate a bit of the gain duties farther down the amp's signal path, and cleans things up a little bit in front. I like it a lot. Subtle, but visceral. You may end up turning your Drive up a bit, but it's clearer somehow and less fizzy. Prior using to the 5751, I also liked the Mullard reissue 12ax7 that I got from Doug's a while back, which was worlds better than the Mesa it replaced. I really think the Mesa tubes are a bit murky sounding, and I found myself able to back off on some of the treble and presence I was boosting to compensate for the lack of clarity I heard before I started monkeying with new tubes.

As to what you're hearing... Even though I have an idea of what you're talking about, it's hard to completely grasp it without hearing you play through your amp. I get what you're saying about how the Drive kicks in with some potentially harsh frequencies, and in fact the manual suggests that the drive character is "brighter and thinner" with the Drive set higher than the Gain. This is one reason why I recommend trying some other preamp tubes.

Once I swapped preamp tubes I noticed that the "clone" effect of the 1st mod was altered quite a bit; I think the different gain structures of the two channels are more noticeable when they aren't running the same 12ax7's and the interactivity of the Drive & Gain is more pronounced. The Mod also has this effect, in a more dramatic way I think, in that Ch2 went from being almost useless at bedroom levels, to being at least more interesting and "realistic" at low levels.

However, I think the biggest factor for Ch2 remains the need to be able to crank it just a little bit higher than apartment living permits. I can almost get off at home, but I find that once I'm at rehearsal or anyplace where I can turn it up just a little, things clean up beautifully. It doesn't have to be painfully loud or anything, and in a large space it often surprises me how good it sounds at a pretty reasonable level... until I look at where the knobs are and remember I'm not at home.

My experience is that once I get it going at a decent level, the ragged edge on top goes away and the tone rounds out. It also become clear that this is not a platform for metal, nu-metal, or any really sizzly hi-gain stuff. But I feel like the Timmons thing is very within reach -- especially if you can play like that. Frankly, the amp's natural responsiveness has really helped me become a better player (not saying much there, honestly) by letting me hear myself better and work more with my touch and my picking technique. I recently theorized a possible reason that the Lonestar's Ch2 is, I think, underrated, especially in comparison to the revered Ch1: like the clean channel, the drive channel is extremely responsive (especially for a grinder), and like any high-performance platform, it takes some familiarity to get the feel for it. In that way, it's a lot like the classic Boogie thing in that can be difficult to really dial in. But I do think this is more about the feel than the knobs.

Anyway, that's my 200 cents...

 

[PilotSSW]

Hey DJW, I'd first off like to say that you've helped me out with the lonestar quite a bit and I have tremendous respect for you in this forum.

If anyone tried the trick, its basically messing around with the tone stack.

Second I would like to say --- If anyone bought this because of andy timmons (he influenced me somewhat, I wont lie), his tone IS MODDED TO HELL AND BACK ! He's tight lipped about it, but it is modded, the V-30 rectifier cabs have alot less to do with it than his modded tone stack. I have a friend that follows most of his clinics and has become friends with him, but he has infact modded the tone stack as well.

Here's my problem with the reeder mod, while it adresses the problem quite well, it opens up a new one (at least for me). So I tried something new last week, I put an Eq in the loop, a 31 band EQ, yeah lots of control, so I pulled the treble and presence wayyyyyyy back, to get it smooth, of course its muddy as hell.

Anyhow heres what I found after setting the tone so it was smooth, it was muddy as hell, I started messing around with the EQ in the loop and starting pulling the 200-1000 hz range back, and there was a 24db spike around 6.4khz in fact I think it may have even been right on the dot. It sounded amazing I played for 45 minutes and did not touch it, the whole time I was smiling and grinning like a dog.

So I did it the next day, didnt touch a thing played for another 45 minutes, just to see how it sounded I turned off the external EQ and it was god awful, muddy, harsh, undefined and overall just unmusical.

The Lonestars overdrive is really fantastic, but it sits behind a poorly designed tone stack and this is why we all sell the lonestar. I'm working on a new plan, because the Clean channel actually sounded better with the EQ on as well, this was the texas tone.

In fact if anyone would like to hear/see what I've done I will gladly post a Youtube Video up for you, showing the EQ in the loop and how effective it is.


I personally demise the idea of having to use an EQ everytime I play, but I challenge you guys to use an EQ in the loop and play with it and switch it back; our ears have adapted to the mud, they shouldnt anymore.


Honestly I know there are people saying that Im probably a crack fool, whatever, if you like the amp -- For God's sake dont change it !! But for me its not cutting it, and the tone stack is constantly being messed with.

~Sean

P.S. I'm very much so a preamp guy, which is why Im not giving up on the Lonestars overdrive, there is good hidden behind that tone stack. I have overdrive pedals into the clean channel that sound much better because they are clear sounding although the drives are thinner and weak compared to the lonestar's.

 

[PilotSSW]

Forgot to mention the EQing I did,

I pulled 200-1000 back about 8-11db and there was a 24db spike at 6.4khz which I pulled down by about 20db.

The upper mids around 1.8-3.6khz were all boosted about 5db.

It sounded fantastic with this setting, the tone stack on the amp was treble - 9, mids - 11, bass - 9, presence - 8, normal switch, drive and gain at 3 o'clock.

I played both a strat and a les paul and both I keep the tone rolled off at 5 on all knobs with the volume usually at 8 and to keep the sound warmer and lose that top end some. These guitars both shined with the amps with both reeder mods and the setup exactly as stated.

I personally like a very smooth, flat response with a small boost in the upper mids for some clarity, but no extra top end or muddy bass whatsoever. I like the bass tight as steel cable and it was both on clean or overdrive.


Once again will be more than happy to post a video up showing this experiment/trial/whatever ;-)

 

[djw]

Sean: thanks for the kudos, and yes, please do post some samples (hopefully you can record yours better than I did). I'm sure you're onto something with this. I still maintain that, in my experience, a little volume smooths out those edges on the Drive channel. However, I'll bet you're right that some tweaked EQ parameters will change the character of the amp and how it behaves with OD.

So, are we talking about adding some capacitors between the tone pots and the board or what? If so, and you can narrow down what values have what sort of effect -- and maybe even make them bypassable with some switches (where???) -- then this amp could be quite tailorable indeed. My only question then would be about how each modulated frequency responds to different input (guitars, pickups, players)... which is already a consideration, actually, with all amps. But if we're attempting to optimize, one's magic mix of cut or boosted frequencies might not react the same way for everyone. In fact, this may be the case right now, in that I feel like my amp is pretty perfect when I get it to an appropriate level; with you playing the same rig, it could just feel and sound totally different.

This is not to knock down the idea at all, I still think it's a good one. Tinker away, dude!

I agree that there are times when pedals sound more even and smooth than Ch2 does, but (I also agree) I prefer the deep and complex harmonics and true dynamics that the real tube-drive OD gives up. Stylistically, the channel works better as an actual "lead" channel than any other channel-switching amp I've had.... usually there's some sort of compromise between a tone that's good for crunchy rhythm and one that's better for screaming leads. I find I can get either with this amp, but it sings on leads. It has that great combination of punchy articulation and presence that, for me, really throws the sound out front. So right now the crunchy rhythm gets the Barber treatment, which sounds great, or if I feel like flipping switches I can use Ch2 with the Drive disengaged (the next mod to come down the line, probably). Probably because I was a punk rocker for such a long time (i.e., basically zero leads), it took me a while to understand what the thick, sudsy Boogie lead tone was really all about... but I think I get it now, and it's a lot cooler (and more transparent and dynamic) than I'd perceived it to be.

 

[PilotSSW]

Very epic reply, sounds like almost like a famous speech, and very well appreciated. For me I had no idea how timmons got his lonestars the way he did. I am by no means a high gain player or shredder, most of my heaviest stuff is timmons oriented and most of the other stuff I play is funk, blues and jazz, but I still find even at lower gains, the clarity just isnt there.

Im going to start on those clips and Im going to show my seymour duncan overdrive just to eliminate any tube, speaker or cabinet issues that someone might bring up. I want to have a control in this experiment to compare to the lonestar overdrive to prove that it is entirely a PREAMP issue.


I want to state something before people start reading this and deciding they might want to follow along, if you like your lonestar as is, then DO NOT CHANGE ANYTHING ! For me I'm still tweaking (I mean far more than I should be) and I just havent found my tone. I've found that with an EQ in my loop I'm never touching anything but my pickup switch and very rarely a tone or volume knob which are now so much more effective with the clear upper mids.

As for capacitors, I have no idea what timmons did, I probably never will, but my fair guess is that I will be in fact buying push-pull knobs to leave it stock or have the lower mids cut back and upper mids boosted a slight bit, as well as a presence cut.

I know absolutely nothing about what each knob (pot) does, but I noticed right away after the reeder mod that there was a presence spike around 6.4 that wasnt near as present before, I think the problems (for my sound at least) fall directly onto the mids knob and the frequency it affects as well as the presence knob; I really wish that the treble knob affected right around 1.6-3.8khz because thats where it decides between warm or clear and it would be a fantastic quick adjustment like that.

I'm going to take a good hard look at the presence knob and the mid knob and see what caps or possible push-pull knobs with a new circuit in the pull position could do for me.


I love my lonestar and I've heard what it can (under timmons wings and now with this eq trial I did) and I know that my sound is being hidden under a tone stack that doesnt work for me. If this tone stack works for you THEN DONT CHANGE IT !!!!

I wish everyone happy playing with your lonestar's and if you do decide that you see (hear) the lonestar as I do, you might help me out in figuring out what I'm trying to fix.

~ Sean

I'm going to start on those recordings, it may take a few days (Im in highschool getting ready to apply for berklee, so give me some time)

 

[PilotSSW]

Ok well I still havent finished that recording, but Im working on it, just thought I might fill you in on what Im finding so far.

Ok anyhow I've spent a good 10 hours on this amp between yesterday and today and I've really dug into this EQ stack and here's what Im finding. First off I've always played with my tone knob at 5, I figured tone knobs are linear 5 up and 5 down, plus I loose that harsh top; Well just for kicks I put my tone knobs at about 1 or 2, of course it was muddy so I figured the treble and presence would have the same effect, wrong ! It was smooth as hell, I mean no harsh top end at all. Switch on clean channel, muddy so I have to compensate and bring the treble and presence on that one up too. I did this with the les paul same great sound, was totally jamming.

So what Im guessing it that since there is no upper midrange or top end coming off the guitar, the drive knob can't even reproduce it! I'm going to try capping the drive's top end off when I get around to finding the right cap or whatever for the job and possibly making it a pull bright kind of thing. I think this will allow it to smooth out and give my tone knobs some more versatility. I can say that turning the tone knob up to about 3 or just under 4 added alot of top end but just enough to get this great solo lead tone.

Anyhow in the tone stack I still hear a lack of the 1.6-3.6 (which I'll just go ahead and boost 2.5 a bit by itself). And with a small cut placed just after the drive knob, it should clean up wonderfully.

Im going try for tomorrow with those clips to prove Im not totally crazy, for anyone who thinks Im a crack pot just follow along, I really feel like Im onto something here.


In case I havent said it before, I'm looking for a tone similar to timmons, very smooth and singing, but I like more upper mids/treble in mine, I like alot of clarity but not top end, which is what this amp had the opposite of. I love the drive and everything about this amp except for the EQ response, and if I can get this change to the amp Im working on and get it out for people to hear, Im sure there will be followers somewhere.


As always best of luck with the tone endeavors, I'm going to be looking up caps to tame my drive knob a bit, Until then ;-)

~ Sean

 

[PilotSSW]

Sorry its taken so long to reply, my computer crashed and I havent had access to one for a while. I lost the sound clips, but I got the boogie sounding alot better, for one I just started accepting the lonestar as is, which helps. I did get in contact with a guy around here who mods amps quite a bit, and he said of the lonestar's that came in most of them just ended up with a speaker change to a V30, he said that it was just as much the speaker as it was anything in the preamp, for now I'll try changing speakers before I devalue the amp anymore. I'll report back when I have it done.

 

[PilotSSW]

Ok well Im back. I did a speaker change, while I was there though, the tech a good friend of mine decided to start messing with tubes because he clearly heard it as well. Took out the JJ's Gold pin 12ax7's and it was nearly gone, go figure, I tried so many different tubes I have lying around and he stuck a cheap groove 12ax7 and the harsh top end we both heard clearly was gone. Pick those V1 tubes carefully obviously I thought it was everything except those which I've had nothing but good luck with and even tried using other JJ's. My amp didnt seem to like an JJ's at all, the chinese were kinda thin and the some of the russians had that top buzz/hum cycle that we heard when a note was struck, the sovtek's seemed to work well.

I can't tell you how dumb I feel right now, I guess you gotta learn at some point right ? Just when I thought I had tried everything it was a dumb preamp tube, oh well, sorry for the waste of time lol.

I give a big thanks to DJW for all the help, I have clips ready for you to hear of this buzzing/top end I was speaking for you to hear if your interested, in the mean time I think I'll go cry over the stupidity.

 

[PilotSSW]

Ok well Im back. I did a speaker change, while I was there though, the tech a good friend of mine decided to start messing with tubes because he clearly heard it as well. Took out the JJ's Gold pin 12ax7's and it was nearly gone, go figure, I tried so many different tubes I have lying around and he stuck a cheap groove 12ax7 and the harsh top end we both heard clearly was gone. Pick those V1 tubes carefully obviously I thought it was everything except those which I've had nothing but good luck with and even tried using other JJ's. My amp didnt seem to like an JJ's at all, the chinese were kinda thin and the some of the russians had that top buzz/hum cycle that we heard when a note was struck, the sovtek's seemed to work well.

I can't tell you how dumb I feel right now, I guess you gotta learn at some point right ? Just when I thought I had tried everything it was a dumb preamp tube, oh well, sorry for the waste of time lol.

I give a big thanks to DJW for all the help, I have clips ready for you to hear of this buzzing/top end I was speaking for you to hear if your interested, in the mean time I think I'll go cry over the stupidity.

 

[djw]

Oy, those damned preamp tubes. Glad you found a cheap solution! Now you can enjoy the amp the way it's supposed to sound! Rock on!

 

[thom]

Ok well Im back. I did a speaker change, while I was there though, the tech a good friend of mine decided to start messing with tubes because he clearly heard it as well. Took out the JJ's Gold pin 12ax7's and it was nearly gone, go figure, I tried so many different tubes I have lying around and he stuck a cheap groove 12ax7 and the harsh top end we both heard clearly was gone. Pick those V1 tubes carefully obviously I thought it was everything except those which I've had nothing but good luck with and even tried using other JJ's. My amp didnt seem to like an JJ's at all, the chinese were kinda thin and the some of the russians had that top buzz/hum cycle that we heard when a note was struck, the sovtek's seemed to

Hi
I am very interested that you said you did the speaker change. How did this affect the sound of the amp? I am considering swapping out one of the C90s in my LSS for a V30. Over on the Electra Dyne section, someone has posted details of a 2x12 cab with this set up. I would like to put in 2 celestion golds but money is tight at the moment. As far as my LSS is concerned, post Reeder Mods; it sounds great but I find it really shines with a pedal in front; at the moment I have a compressor at about unity gain in front and channel 2 is sweet.

 

[plan-x]

A speaker change and or a cab upgrade can do more to change the tone than just about anything else. But a V-30 ain't got nothing on a C-90. V-30's are spikey and harsh.