Lone Star Drive flabby

[SRVYJM]

I recently purchased a Lone Star 23" head with the 100/50/10 switch (new one). I bought the 1X12 closed back cabinet with a Celestion V30 in it at the same time from a recommendation from the dealer. I like a really tight responsive bass. Bell like, more piano-like tones on the low end. This is to "replace", although it's not going anywhere, my '66 Fender Super reverb for more versatility.

I have to say that overall the amp sounds disappointing. Now, I'm shooting for more of an Andy Timmons tone (who's not that owns one of these) and I have the BB pedal too, but playing through my strat (alder body, maple neck) everything sound pretty thin.

My question is, is it my weak Strat pickups and should I start with replacing those with Dimarzio Cruiser DP187's and a JP humbucker, or is it the amp? Should I do the Bias mod first and see if I can get the amp to liven up some. I use the volume control a LOT to change tone and dynamics while playing, and this amps drive just seems buzzy and farty, much like my Fender Blues Deluxe and Hot Rod Deluxe, instead of the beautiful, rich, harmonic and tight tones I'm hearing Andy getting. I would think I could compensate my pickups by turning up the BB Volume or Gain, but the amp still sounds pretty weak. Not what I was expecting at all once I got it home and started playing it a lot.

Any tips? Amp mod's or Pickup mods. They both cost about the same. Will the amp bias kit really bring this amp alive? I see Andy playing in clinics with stock gear all the time and he's getting great tone, without the bias mod.

 

[plan-x]

You must have a good ear to spot this out immediately with your brand new amp. Most of us were stoked with the clean ch so much that we let the OD ch ride for a while. That sounds like a Reeder mod fix. Mod's 1 & 2 for the 2nd ch. Then after that I would consider the bias mod if not satisfied. Alot of guys here have done the Reeder mods with satisfactory results. See sticky at the top of this Lonestar forum.

The bias mod is pretty new around here and requires a bias meter $$ and kit $. The Reeder mods only require soldering. It woujd be interesting to hear if someone has done them both, and if they have reversed their Reeder mods after doing the bias mod. Or is the Reeder mod still necessary with the bias mod??

 

[screamingdaisy]

Put atleast 7 to 10 hours of LOUD playing on that V30, then reassess.

The V30 will continue to noticably improve until you have around 40 hours on it... then it stabilizes (although it will still continue to get better with age).

 

[MrMarkIII]

In the Lead channel, if you're running the Bass any higher than 10 o'clock, it's too much.
Excess bass in an overdriven pre-amp equals flub.
It's why so many use a TS9 or a clone (BBE, etc.) to "tighten up the bass". Tube Screamers don't really have a mid boost so much as a bass cut. Less bass = less flub = tight sound.

 

[plan-x]

What they said. That's why I said you got problems so soon?
The settings on ch 2 are very touchy, testy. We all played around with these alot. The forum has alot of archived info that goes back even before the specific Lonestar sub forum. We posted under Modern amps. That's where the original Reeder mods threads are. Settings were posted and discussed.

Alot of guys ball park these settings to ward off mud & flab. My general settings on ch 2:

Gain - 11:00-12:00 this set above 12-1:00 can cause flab
Bass - "10:00 or lower"
Mid - "Same"
Treble- 12:00 or higher
Pres - "Same
Drive on - 1-4:00 this also helps alot to cut flab

As for the Timmons tone...there aren't alot of guys claiming to have nailed it and it's been suggested that his LSC may not be completely stock. I don't care. I love my tone and use pedals to squeeze out articulate chording and solos.

Many here have upgraded our tubes also. The mesa tubes tend to run cool. Giving the amp a flat, compressed, no spice feel. A tube upgrade can put some lively, bouncy, bass tightening, sparkling highs back into the amp.

One more thing, the amp was designed with the C-90's in mind. I personally like those speakers. The V-30's are OK, but have a high/mid spike. Not that you were complaining about that. More speakers help with the mud issues as well. I'm using the 2x12 combo with 2 more ext. cabs. All these things play a part in the flab dept. Now I have no flab/mudd to speak of, except my gut. :lol:

 

[ziehmrd]

I have a newer 100 watt head with a 1X12 C90 cabinet. One of my guitars is a Texas Special Fat Strat with a Seymore Duncan Pearly gates in the bridge and Fender Texas Specials in the middle and neck. Now, this is a fairly bright guitar, but with this amp, I'm getting great, punchy tones out of channel 2 throughout the range of gain adjustments. I do have the bass set at about 9 o'clock. No flab, no buzz, but still fat and articulate. I add a little delay and can get pretty close to some Timmons tone. I also have a Hotrod Deville and although a nice amp, the Lonestar is way more harmonically rich and complex in comparison. Don't give up just yet, and as suggested, break in that V30.

 

[splatter]

You must have a good ear to spot this out immediately with your brand new amp. Most of us were stoked with the clean ch so much that we let the OD ch ride for a while. That sounds like a Reeder mod fix. Mod's 1 & 2 for the 2nd ch. Then after that I would consider the bias mod if not satisfied. Alot of guys here have done the Reeder mods with satisfactory results. See sticky at the top of this Lonestar forum.

The bias mod is pretty new around here and requires a bias meter $$ and kit $. The Reeder mods only require soldering. It woujd be interesting to hear if someone has done them both, and if they have reversed their Reeder mods after doing the bias mod. Or is the Reeder mod still necessary with the bias mod??

I did the bias mod and the pot swap mod ( not sure which reader mod that is ) in that order and both my lone stars kill . I play through a c-90 though . I tried the v-30 and it sounded good but its grainer than the c-90 . The c-90 with the lsc is really smooth .
I have a 1x12 combo and I also have a head that I use with a 2x12 closed back splawn cab . IMHO the combo sounds better its airer and smoother . So much so that I'm thnking about getting an open back cab for the head . As for guitar I play a les paul axcess with wcr darkburst pickups I changed the magnet in the bridge pickup to an alnico 2 instead of the 5 . I think my tone is better than timmons (just my opinion)
As for the farty bass I have found that in every mesa I have ever played . I think its due to the cold biasing . After I biased and did the reader mod the fizz and fart were gone . The bass still isn't quite as tight as I would like but its acceptable .

 

[djw]

The drive channel really does require some volume to tighten things up. Not sure where the your levels are, but at bedroom levels you won't get anything like what the amp is capable of. Fizz will reign supreme... much like most other amps with 20+ watts. The V30s might actually accentuate that too.

As has been said above, the Reeder mods will help a lot; the 2nd Reeder mod (The Mid Mod) actually really helps with the low-end fluff on the drive channel. Easy, easy mod to do. I'd refrain from the Pot Swap mod for now, if you're after Timmons' tone you'll probably get closer leaving that bit stock. (Also, remember, Andy has a compressor going basically all the time... and he plays like he does.)

The LSC and Super Reverb are two totally different beasts. Even so, the way I first read the OP it almost sounded like something was wrong with the amp. I play a strat too, and I get a really fat, rich tone out of mine... had I not done the pot swap mod, I probably would get an even thicker tone than I do. Maybe play around with some different preamp tubes in V1 and V2. A Mullard reissue 12AX7 in V2 sounds great, as does a JAN Phillips 5751 for a cleaner tone (which is what I use).

Also, regarding cabs: C90s are really a great match for the amp. The 27" LS 1x12 cabinet sounds sublime, and has a lot of thump for an open back. I don't recall reading many rave reviews about V30s matched with the LSC... good luck, and let us know what you do!

 

[djw]

PS I forgot to add... even at the 10 watt setting, it can be hard to really get a good vibe with the amp at low volume. 10 watts is still pretty loud, and the problem with these multi-watt amps is that the output impedance gets mismatched with the stock speaker when you switch down to one of the lower levels. Mesas are built tough enough to handle it, but the end result is a mismatch that can be on the cold side (I think???). I wish there was a good way for them to switch this down easily. Probably cost- and space-prohibitive, but the amp will always sound better if the impedance is matched better...

 

[SRVYJM]

Thanks all. I think I'll start with the bias mod, it makes the most sense to me and is such a useful mod anyway. I think one thing is certain compared to other amps I own, that this LSC is running "cold". I have a bias probe and multimeter and some skills in amp mods as I did quite a few to my Super Reverb and am pretty handy with my soldering iron.

I think I might also pick up a C90 speaker and install it in my cabinet. Easy enough and cheap enough thing to do with just one speaker. Much easier to afford and do then replacing all the four speakers I've done in the past with my Super Reverb!

I'll keep the forum posted with my impressions after the install. Thanks everyone for the quick and thorough responses and suggestions.

 

[SRVYJM]

Ok, first big change here, simple enough to test out too. I replaced the Mesa tubes with two original GE 6L6's from my Super Reverb. These are not NOS tubes, but actual old tubes. I've been using them reliably for years in my '66 Super Reverb.

WOW! I only have two of them so I put them on the outside and I'm keeping the amp on 50 watts for now (I have the original Mesa tubes still in on the inside, may change those too, I have a set of Tung Sol's from Lord Valve- I live about six blocks from His Legendary Self's shop- he irritates me but sells good quality tubes for cheap).

Couple of things I've stumbled on. This amp sounds sweet with all the glassy tones a BF Fender has, without the harshness so far, but interestingly enough, IN CHANNEL TWO! As I stated in the original post, I'm a guy that rides the volume knob on my Strats all the time. In channel two with the guitar volume on about three, this beast is just plain smoking glass sweet sounding. Everything my Super is when I have a pedal in front of it, but straight in. But to get there I've discovered I like the Drive control up much higher then the Gain, opposite of the manuals recommendation (yes, I read the F#$%() manual, loved the Irish Pentode Bar bit, loved it)

I've began to think of the Drive control as Power Tube Saturation, and the Gain control as Preamp Tube Saturation. I think that pretty well gets it. With the drive at about 3:00 and the Gain anywhere below that, I get amazing Power Tube saturation tone without all the fuzzy, muddy distortion I get when they are reversed. I'm also getting ridiculous clean sustain, and the amp tends to quickly go into feedback, harmonic overtone feedback, very quickly at fairly low volumes. I'm playing right now (basement studio/office with very poor sound insulation in a 100+ year old house) and the kids are still sleeping upstairs, but I'm getting great sustain and note quality.

Another thing I hear is with the controls set this way I'm getting the big SRV Grand Piano E note when I hit the open E. I test all my guitars and amps with that one big note. What does it sustain like, how clear and beautiful does it ring out. If it doesn't sound like a grand piano, I'm not interested. It's sounding like a grand piano now. Very, very similar to my Super Reverb, even with just one 12" V30. That ported closed back roadster cabinet is really showing it's stuff. I've also been playing loud a lot and gigging with the amp to put the "break-in" time into this speaker. Looks like it might be paying off.

One more note, I installed a "treble bleed" mod on my guitar yesterday before I did all this. I've done it before with poor results, but I bought some crap caps from a local supply store. This time I bought two kits from Specialty Guitars (http://www.specialtyguitars.com/electronics/caps.html. One Orange Drop and one Mallory. I installed the Mallory this time (it is smaller and fit better, plus I like Mallory caps in my amps) and it sounds awesome now. I really like the Mallory, and I did this treble bleed with just the cap, no resistor in parallel or series, and love it. The volume rolls off like it did before, but it keeps all the character of my strats pickups without it getting thin or weak at all. Totally recommend this mod to anyone playing a strat. Use the Mallory cap. Beautiful. I'll try the Orange Drop on another strat and post results too.

This I also have to point out has gotten me much closer to the "Timmons" tone, only my take on it. I also added a "Base Plate" to my bridge pickup. Big, Big, Big difference there. Still not quite where I want to go, I think I'm heading in the humbucker-single-single direction, but the bridge pickup is vastly improved. Better bass, better mids, less harsh highs and much louder then it was. Helps balance out the bridge pickup with the other two hugely. Before the bridge pickup was mostly useless to me. Now it's integral. I can see where Thomas Blug gets his great bridge pickup sound from now, He turned me onto the idea.

Thats it for now. I'm still going to do the bias mod, it makes sense and is reversible, so I'll post more after that arrives.

 

[plan-x]

That's the ticket. We've been tweaking this modding that, each time getting closer to the sound we want. Eventually you get there, or pretty darn close.

 

[djw]

Ahhhh... welcome to the Lone Star State. (geez, I feel like a goober for saying that) Yeah, the ease with which you can get that feedback going is pretty amazing, isn't it? If you ever dig into the discussions about the 1st Reeder mod, you will see that there's a lot of agreement about keeping the Drive higher than the Gain, especially after the mod. I like to keep them close, wherever they are, with the Drive a click higher.

I use a Strat mostly too, I have Dimarzio Areas and an RS Guitarworks kit in mine -- and also a Callaham block, which was a huge piano-invocation upgrade -- and between those I've reached something like Nirvana with this combo, and like you I tend to just sit on the Drive channel all day and work the volume. I haven't tried a treble bleed, maybe sometime... haven't had the need yet.

Right on!

 

[SRVYJM]

Ahhhh... welcome to the Lone Star State. (geez, I feel like a goober for saying that) Yeah, the ease with which you can get that feedback going is pretty amazing, isn't it? If you ever dig into the discussions about the 1st Reeder mod, you will see that there's a lot of agreement about keeping the Drive higher than the Gain, especially after the mod. I like to keep them close, wherever they are, with the Drive a click higher.

I use a Strat mostly too, I have Dimarzio Areas and an RS Guitarworks kit in mine -- and also a Callaham block, which was a huge piano-invocation upgrade -- and between those I've reached something like Nirvana with this combo, and like you I tend to just sit on the Drive channel all day and work the volume. I haven't tried a treble bleed, maybe sometime... haven't had the need yet.

Right on!

I've been looking at the Callaham block too. Always wanted to do that and see what kind of sustain and tone it added. So, I assume by your post you'd recommend it too? I am on the unofficial Yngwie forum (I know, I know, but I still love his tone and overall astounding technique, although I play blues almost exclusively now) and a guy added one to his YJM Strat and really praises it. I'm super happy with the base plate, and might order a bunch more for other guitars and even try them on my neck and middle pickups just to see.

What's the RS Guitarworks kit?

 

[djw]

I have a US Dlx Strat, and the Callaham Deluxe upgrade kit (block, saddles, arm) was money very well spent. The block added tremendous sustain and harmonic content, really made the piano thing real. The stock block is fairly cheesy and it's easy to see how the difference in material affects tone. If you do one thing, do the block.

RSGuitarworks: take a look at this
http://www.rsguitarworks.net/rsstore/index.php?cPath=47_62
They're pretty popular at the Gear Page... they have a lot of high-quality caps and components, and some pre-wired kits. Sounds like you're already happy with your electronics, but they're a good resource.

 

[SRVYJM]

OK, I think I just figured out a major tone secret on this beast. Everything I was complimenting before I thought was a result of my replacing the tubes with Old Stock GE's and changing my approach to the Drive/Gain relationship.

Somehow when changing the tubes I must have hit the "Loop In/ Hard Bypass" and bypassed the Output/Solo section. I posted that mine wasnt' working and a reader told me what to do (Loop In) to get my Output and Solo working again, I did it, and all the crap tone came back. All of it, flubby, flabby, fuzzy, muddy, weak et al.

When I Hard Bypass everything, or turn the output all the way up (either, I think full blast must defeat the output control) this thing is the sweetest sounding amp I've ever heard, much less played through, with it any less then maxed or bypassed, this is a crappy sounding amp!

So, did I just discover that I'm a non-master volume guy? Is the Output some kind of PPIV master volume or something. Anyway, it sounds total sh1t engaged, but this amp is ridiculous with that out of the loop. Crazy good tone. Stunning.

What's up with that?

 

[screamingdaisy]

Double check that the loop send knob is set to 50%, then try fiddling with the relationship between the channel master volumes and the output knob.

If that doesn't work, try kicking the effects loop send knob in the back up to around 60% to 70%... that feeds a stronger signal to the output knob and seems to help open the amp up for some reason. If you set it too high however it'll overdrive the effects loop. Not a big deal, just doesn't sound great when it happens.

If that doesn't work, I have no more advice.

 

[djw]

Could also look into swapping another 12ax7 into v4 (or is it v3? check the tube diagram in the manual for the loop driver tube...). The loop engagement definitely has an effect, though I don't think it's normally as drastic as you describe. I usually keep mine on and the level at about 1-2:00. Warms up the tone a little, and I like having the solo boost function. It shouldn't make the tone suck that much.

 

[SRVYJM]

Wow, these amps are tricky. I had the Loop send all the way off. I think I do like it without the loop at all, but the solo function is nice (although I can accomplish the same thing with my volume knob) and with the loop up to the + sign or all the way it sounds great again. I think the + sign is about unity gain with the channel, and beyond that it appears to actually boost the signal.

Really, I'd be ditching this amp without you guys on this forum, and now I know and understand what an incredible amp these Lone Stars are. Definately can pull out some Timmons tone on it, and beyond. This amp is extreamly versatile, with clean Grand Piano tones to die for with my volume rolled off and the treble bleed installed, it betters any amps clean I've ever played, and creamy smooth distortion is just a volume swell away. I haven't even turned on the BB Preamp yet. I'm gonna have fun with this today. Taking it down to my local blues jam tonight now that I really know how to get great sounds out of it. Thanks for all your help everyone!

 

[Leroy the Massochist]

I agree with you, by pass the loop or play with the solo engaged and ride your guitar volume. For mine non solo engaged is a compressed muddy version of the alternate and has more gain)

As you seem to have found other things with this amp:
- it must be played really loud for the glassy, bouncy clarity (unfortunately the best sound is above band volume at 30 watts);
- I have a RC Booster on all the time with a slight boost to the treble and bass with the gain at labout 10 (just eq's it in all the right places and cleans up the grit of the LSS clean channel);
- guitar volumes at between 6 and 8 and tone rolled off to 6 - 8, I have my bridge humbucker (Seymour Duncan JB) tone down at 4; and
- yes drive higher than gain.

3 (or is it 4) years on and still tweaking.