I've had the MKV for less than a year and preamp tubes going

[mightywarlock]

In almost 20 years of playing guitar and Boogies, I have only had 2-Mesa branded tube blow on me.

I have dropped some, and had to replace them, but only two blinked out.
and one of them was after a few years.
the other, is my most unsettling story...
(recently, my most unhappy moment came when my brand new (just out of the box, but over 6-months since I had purchased it, STR450) tubes blew. I spent so much money on 1 set of tubes, bought extra, and then when I finally went to use them, one of them blew, almost immediately, and I was left without a warranty, and out $150 tubeset! But I suppose that is my own fault for waiting so long to even try them out. I wanted to try my STR450's in my Mark V, and had them in there a few minutes when I noticed this crazy glowing behind my amp. one of the tubes went bad, and when I went to the Hollywood Mesa store, they told me, too late.
live and learn. I will never again wait to try out a new tube. I guess I will always test them and then can store them.

However, I haven't always been happy with the tone out of the standard Mesa tubes. They may be JJ's, or Ruby's, but those brands make a lot of different types of tubes. I often feel the Mesa branded tubes, the normal ones, not the specialty ones (like my STR450's), are somewhat of a generic sounding tube that lack in several different areas, but since there is no way Mesa, or any other amp manufacturer can know who will be buying their amp and for what purpose, I understand the generality of it all. Why do people not speak badly about the Sovtek tubes most other brands use? They certainly are not the best Toneful tubes either!

I have used other brands of tubes in other amps of mine. And, I've had other brands fail me miserably. Specifically Winged C's. I can't even tell whether I like them or not, as the very first set I bought lasted me a week, and then 2 tubes blinked out instantly, and took one of my amps down with it. So, even though I want to try them in my Mark V, I am a little worried about buying them again.

Tung-Sol preamps tubes get scratchy awefully quick I have found. But most people like them. I haven't decided on whether I truly dig them or not, but I do use them as well in some of my high gain amps (and I own a lot of amps).
I like JJ-EL34L's in my Recto's, and think anyone who doesn't use those is missing out on the real good Recto tones.
I like to quiet things down (hiss, etc...) with Electro Harmonix 12ax7EH tubes.
Many other people have their own likes and dislikes when it comes to tube cocktails.

However, I think if Mesa is going to hold us liable, and in a way, prisoner, to one tube choice for 5 years, just because you guys feel it safer for the general public, I feel that is a major mistake. Perhaps it is two choices. 6L6 or EL34, in those amps that can switch. But still, Mesa branded only. If they are all Ruby, why not at least give us a choice...especially since those other brands are always courting Mesa, as you say. I do not like the generic bland sounding STR447's my recent amps have come with (My Stiletto, for example). or whatever number my 6L6GC's were.
You guys use those numbers, why not make deals with other suppliers, and just add different numbers?
Afraid of confusion with the general public?
More choices are always good choices. I understand there could be confusion, but this could be easily explained by a short description on a box so people can make up their own minds.
Choices are good.
That's why there are so many different brands out there today. I own 4 Mesa amps currently, as well as 2 Diezel Amps, and Marshall's too.

Please guys, give us more choices if you are going to hold us to using only Mesa tubes in order to not void our warranties. It shouldn't be so complicated.

 

[Authorized Boogie]

Hey Warlock -

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, kind words and I also appreciate the long wind. Makes me feel at home... :lol:

Forgive me for the comment chop but you've raised some interesting points and I'd like to address them as written.

However, I haven't always been happy with the tone out of the standard Mesa tubes. They may be JJ's, or Ruby's, but those brands make a lot of different types of tubes. I often feel the Mesa branded tubes, the normal ones, not the specialty ones (like my STR450's), are somewhat of a generic sounding tube that lack in several different areas, but since there is no way Mesa, or any other amp manufacturer can know who will be buying their amp and for what purpose, I understand the generality of it all.

The comment I've bolded says it all. We do our best to make our amps sound like what we think will reach the most people and the core of the design philosophy is versatility or "value for your amplifier dollar" as Randall Smith likes to say. Tubes are a fantastic part of the tone you hear but we personally feel the circuit plays a MUCH more significant role in what you ultimately hear and feel.
Why do we use the tubes we use? To make our amps sound like our amps! What you hear is what we hear...

Many points Warlock makes here speaks mostly to sonic subjective opinions. Boogie will continue to avoid those topics here since everyone needs to decide themselves what sounds good to them... whether buying an amp or tubes or both but other points made are important and worthy of some further detail.

Why do people not speak badly about the Sovtek tubes most other brands use? They certainly are not the best Toneful tubes either!

This is a great question. Perhaps only answerable by each person who has enough experience and desire to compare them tonally or by any other parameter... although I'm curious for people's thoughts on this since Sovtek tubes don't seem to make it in people's lists of favorites here.

However, I think if Mesa is going to hold us liable, and in a way, prisoner, to one tube choice for 5 years, just because you guys feel it safer for the general public, I feel that is a major mistake. Perhaps it is two choices. 6L6 or EL34, in those amps that can switch. But still, Mesa branded only. If they are all Ruby, why not at least give us a choice...especially since those other brands are always courting Mesa, as you say. I do not like the generic bland sounding STR447's my recent amps have come with (My Stiletto, for example). or whatever number my 6L6GC's were.
You guys use those numbers, why not make deals with other suppliers, and just add different numbers?
Afraid of confusion with the general public?
More choices are always good choices. I understand there could be confusion, but this could be easily explained by a short description on a box so people can make up their own minds.

This point is reasonable and, as far as Mesa is concerned, also answers itself. Confusion in the land of people already largely intimidated by vacuum tubes is best avoided, in our long term experience. This is one of a number of primary reasons behind the tubes and products we offer but the short answer is that Mesa finds far less people take tube experimentation to the level that people on this board do. As mentioned, we listen to all available parts and tubes in our R & D and so far we have not found anything compelling enough to cause us to want to make a change. Some other reasons for the simplicity:

Liability Under Warranty - Mesa is not willing to take on the liability of warranty repair when tubes over which we have no control represent a potential to be a cause for any repair, much less costly ones when extreme tube failures are involved. With all the discussion on this thread being mostly about reliability, I would hope this important aspect might be more obvious, but...
We are willing to accept that liability when tubes that we have some level of control over are in use.

Factory Bias - We currently - hands down - prefer the sound and character of our tubes in use. All the components we use provide the sound that we feel best represents a finished Mesa product. We are currently using all the components that we feel makes a Mesa sound like a Mesa.

Versatility - Mesa hopes that most people find the versatility of the controls and features of our amps to far outweigh the variations available from different origins and types of tubes available. We make amps with controls that actually work. :wink: It's our belief that the core sound of the amp is generated from the circuit itself and the tubes are ultimately the at the service of the circuit. If other's hear it differently, once again, that's subjective and to everyone's own

Simplification - simplification for Mesa, of course, but mostly for the legions of customers that AREN'T tube aficionados like many of the fine folks posting here at the Boogie Board. As mentioned before, in our experience, the number of people who plug and play and seek and appreciate the versatility of the amplifier and not the versatility of different tubes currently outweighs those interested and willing to experiment with different tube types - and by a good margin as far as we can tell. I can say from personal experience that MOST tube amplifier operators these days do not have the kind of tube and amp experience that allows them to make this distinction much less change their own tubes when a tube goes bad even when it's made as easy as changing a light bulb. I would humbly offer that choice in the hands of the uninitiated is not necessarily a good thing.

Consistency - Mesa wants it's amps in the field to sound consistent from one amp to the next. With as many variables as exist in tone and vacuum tube amplification already, we want our products to be properly and consistently represented out there on the store floors and stages around the world and not have people have to come to some interpretation of the tone they hear based on tubes in use.

Please guys, give us more choices if you are going to hold us to using only Mesa tubes in order to not void our warranties. It shouldn't be so complicated.

Complicated exists naturally in a waning populations understanding and experience with vacuum tubes. We understand this and we are working diligently to expand the education and understanding of tubes for new generations of folks who have never experienced vacuum tubes before. Doing that right is as involved as getting an amplifier design right and takes time. Just as Mesa has engaged in posting on the Boogie board to further knowledge and education, we're working continually on the other stuff too... Stay Tuned.

Mesa considers itself in the business of building amplifiers and only secondarily in the business of selling vacuum tubes (to support and easily maintain the amps we make). This has been a foundational idea and the vision of Randall Smith since the first Boogies in 1969. We're not out to be known for being the best tube resellers in the world - we are out design the best amps we possibly can.

Appreciate the thoughts and suggestions, Warlock (and others) and hopefully this stuff comes off the right way and gives people positive perspectives on the Mesa experience and the thinking behind company and products.

 

[eudaimonia02912]

I understand that Mesa uses a fixed bias, and so power amp tubes need to bias at Mesa's range. I understand that it makes sense to dissuade inexperienced owners from experimenting with power tubes, if they don't understand the problems with incorrect biases. So, perhaps threatening to void warranties makes sense, at least when it comes to power amp tubes.

Still, I find the "Using non-Mesa tubes will void your warranty" point irksome.

Many users will, of course, just use non-Mesa tubes, and if they need warranty-repairs, will just pop Mesa-labeled tubes back in before warranty work. (Only in exceptional circumstances would they be unable to do so.)

Do any other manufacturers require that one use a specific brand tube in order to maintain a warranty? Are Mesa amps more likely to break than Diezel amps if you use a NOS RFT in V1 or a Mullard RI in the PI, and so, as a result, Mesa but not Diezel needs to restrict what preamp tubes owners use?

 

[Authorized Boogie]

Hi Euda -

The technical basis for not allowing non-Mesa tubes to be bused in an amp under warranty is due to the potential of any tube, including Mesa tubes, (power and rectifier tubes particularly) being able to cause damage to internal components in rare but severe failure. Mesa must limit it's exposure to repair costs for extreme tube failures that it cannot FULLY control anyway, even with our own tubes and the intensive testing processes we employ.

Beyond just the tubes themselves, consider some of the other elements out of our control where Mesa still ends up liable for costs involved in warranty repairs:

- Individuals playing their amps in no load situations that are often the cause of both extreme tube failures and subsequent damage to internal components.
- Plugging in cabinets incorrectly that cause for tubes to be run particularly hard and lead to similar failures.
- The widely varying voltages that amplifiers are exposed to in the outside world from different locations.
- The massive variation and potential misuse of external devices and general settings that lead to premature and extreme tube failures

These are just a few suggestions of many that are out of Mesa's control but, yet the company, particularly in the customers mind, is still "liable" for warranty repair.

Like tone, many of the cases where warranty repair is being sought in extreme tube failure issues is subjective. There are tell-tale signs in the amp and circuitry, to the trained technician's eye, as to what went wrong and why - the amp usually tells it's story.

Just via the inconsistencies of our own tested, matched and sourced tubes and the basic function of tubes and humans and rock and roll, Mesa is liable via it's warranty to take care of it's customers. Opening the door to the use of any old tube is too great a liability for this company, and in my opinion, any company, to want to take on although I suspect some out there may. This would be a good question for someone else to answer although, another companies policies is rarely a deciding factor in the formation of our own.

With Mesa tubes, we know the origin, the testing, the bias and operation being correct and in all those calculations, we can more clearly understand the reliability, liability and costs involved in providing such an extensive warranty for such unknowable and generally unreliable circumstances as the operation of vacuum tubes.

I can understand personally people's frustration with not being able to use any tube they want but I would kindly hope that people with enough knowledge of the variety and severity of tube failures would be able to easily understand why Mesa is not willing to expose itself to any old manufacturers and tube resellers tubes under warranty.

It strikes me that we are back to what people who use tubes and amplifiers actually know and understand about how tubes work. Fewer and fewer people are familiar with the how's and why's and that's why this thread exists. Understanding why is the key and hopefully this provides a little more insight although happy to try and explain further if people have further questions or views. It's a tough subject but hopefully making more sense...

And, for what its worth, Preamp tubes don't pose as much of a risk to internal components when they fail as power or rectifier tubes may, but... for all the reasons described above in the previous post, Mesa does not provide warranty for amps that do not use Mesa tubes, preamp, power, rectifier or otherwise.

Hope this helps.

 

[mightywarlock]

Thank you for your reply to our thoughts and issues.

I do have one more question, and hope you can give us this info.
As quoted above...

"Mesa uses a fixed bias, and so power amp tubes need to bias at Mesa's range."

How can we find out what this range is? Will you guys give us this info?

I've bought tubes before and the tube shop asked me what range i needed it to be in.
some amp manufacturers will tell you (like Peter Diezel).

I think this one important bit of information is probably something extremely useful in keeping the tube swapper safer in the acceptable range of the amp in question, and less likely to have tube or amp failure as a result of an unsafe mismatch.

 

[sevycat]

Very nice information you provided about tubes. Looking forward to the tube trouble shooting video's. Thanks for posting, authorized boogie, and look forward to seeing you around here.

 

[screamingdaisy]

And, for what its worth, Preamp tubes don't pose as much of a risk to internal components when they fail as power or rectifier tubes may, but... for all the reasons described above in the previous post, Mesa does not provide warranty for amps that do not use Mesa tubes, preamp, power, rectifier or otherwise.

If Mesa were to offer SED =C= tubes as a premium upgrade option our warranties would be protected. 8)

 

[boogieman60]

One thing that was'nt mentioned in the thread was damage to tubes done by simply moving the amp from gig to gig. Or damage done in shipping. Shock is the enemy of any tube. I cringe everytime I hit a bump in the road with My V in the back...That being said, If we use ANY tube amp, we should know how to service the tube section of the unit. Thanks A.B. for the input and the new tube service videos on youtube... very helpfull.

 

[konstantine RK]

awesome thread!!!! Learned some more about tubes, Mesa and how they do business..

I get a lot of crap from the other local guitarists who are using Bogner, Marshall, Diezel but I will go to the stage anyday with my Roadking I.

I use the SPAX7 preamp tube
Until I get a Roadking II

 

[JOEY B.]

If Mesa were to offer SED =C= tubes as a premium upgrade option our warranties would be protected. 8)

Copied and pasted from 2002 MESA price list:


MESA Matched and Tested - Premium Quality Guarantee - We start with only the
finest tubes available from around the world. We then test and match every tube,
while under the stress of actual operating conditions, to the tightest, most demanding
specifications in our industry with the use of our proprietary, aerospace designed tube
analysis system called Robotube. We accept only the "finest of the finest" and back
them with the best warranty in the business for a minimum of six months!
Available as Duet:
6L6 GC STR 420 (Duet)
6L6 GC STR 427 (Duet)
6L6 GC STR 430 (Duet)
6L6 GC STR 454 Svetlana (Duet)
5881 6L6 STR 425 (Duet)
6V6 GTA STR 417 (Duet)
EL-34 STR 447 (Duet)
EL-34 STR 442 Svetlana (Duet)
NOS EL-34 STR 450 Siemens (Duet)
6550 (Duet)

As you can see, not that long ago, there were 4 choices (5 if you count the STR-425) of 6L6 tubes and 3 choices of EL-34's. All would be warranty "legal" for the amps. I can see the point of designing an amp around a certain model of tube, but it would be nice to have this amount of variety available again when it comes time for a re-tube. 8)

 

[screamingdaisy]

As you can see, not that long ago, there were 4 choices (5 if you count the STR-425) of 6L6 tubes and 3 choices of EL-34's. All would be warranty "legal" for the amps. I can see the point of designing an amp around a certain model of tube, but it would be nice to have this amount of variety available again when it comes time for a re-tube. 8)

I used to run the STR-454s in my old Recto. I liked them a lot. Mostly I was hoping to drop a hint in the hopes that Mesa might read this thread again someday...