I need some words of wisdom here guys...MARK iiC Vs MARK iii

[IBA]

Hi there

Im new to this forum although I've been reading it for a while. I'm also new to the MB amps (I'm coming from the Marshall/Brit amp angle). I had a rather unpleasant experience with the Tri-Axis/2:90 4x12 Mesa cab in a recording session years ago (I was persuaded by the producer... I still feel like maiming him) :x and I also tried out a couple of dual and triple rectifiers that didnt convince me much. I'm gonna say something stupid here... but they sounded 'hollow' (over-EQ'd and without any body or sustain). However, I've seen mark IIc+, III and IV and I always had that pleasant sensation of a fuller and richer sound (more like and old jmp on steroids but still different).

I think the Mk4 is out of question for me. More features and all that, but I mainly play one channel amps, so I vary my right hand attack, and use the volume/tone pots, pickup selector and wah extensively to alter the sound (as well as various boosters). So I don't need all the fancy stuff of the IV. I feel the extra circuitry in the IV hurts the final tone. (Still a wicked amp- dont get me wrong).

:?: So here is my question: :?:

ive come across these two combos,

a mark iic (without the +), two output valves/tubes, non-simul-class but all the other extras included (even the Xport transformer- I live in the UK). It's just a car drive away but it will cost me about $500 more (roughly) than the second one:

A mark iii 100W simul-class with all the extras except the Xport power transformer. This one is in the Americas.

i suppose I could get the iic and maybe ask Mike to rearrange it C+ and simul-class mod (i dont even know if the later is possible). I'd get the whole paperwork business too and it would be sort of 'an investment'. But all that will add time and cost on top of a more expensive amp to start with.

For the mk3 it may be just a matter of getting a new Power transformer? (I dont know if they still replace them at MB-Not the big early ones, but the smaller later ones). But with a step down transformer it would be a cheaper workhorse from the start.

BTW. the main mission for this amp will be those IIC+type of chunky tones and singing leads.

:?: One final question :?:

what payment system would you recommend for the peace of mind of both parties? (Lets be nasty for a sec and imagine that everyone out there is twisted and evil. It could save us a lot of pain once we come across one of such characters). As far as I know, Paypal transactions outside Ebay , only give you a refund if there's money at the other party's registered bank account, so they could easily take the money and keep the items (assuming they have them in the first place) and bugger off. :twisted: :evil: :twisted:

Any experience with http://www.Escrow.com anyone?? :idea:

Wow!! this was a heavy start for my first ever post!!.

Thank you for all the info you've already shared,
and thanks in advance also for the potential replies.

Happy new Year

 

[bartchamdoh]

That,s a hard one but if you have the money to get it upgraded i would grab the 2c,if your a one channel amp guy the 2c+ is the amp to have!!! plus you can sell it on for good money if you think it,s not for you.I regularly gig with a sixty watt(2 power tubes)mark 2b or purple stripe mark 3 and they have enough power for gigging.On the minus side i had a 60/100 mark 2c years ago(before i knew what it was worth!!!)and traded it for a fully loaded mark 3 simul class green stripe and i thought the stock mark 3 to be better than the 2c(still got the green stripe best amp i,ve ever played).

 

[av8or3]

The simulclass mod would not be possible on a sixty watter. You would need (4) power tube sockets.
Jim

I'm not certain there is such a thing anymore anyway, althought I think it's been done before.

 

[zebpedersen]

Is it the IIC in blonde on eBay at the moment? (140370859975)

I wouldn't touch it - too much money, the guy is now making out that it 'could be a C+' because of a black dot above the power cord. I've never ever seen a C+ with anything other than a clear + on the back. Apart from that, he was saying that the '50w [sic] Boogies sound much better'. Of course, you can switch the 100W/Simul models down to 60W anyhow.

Anyway, that's my opinion on that one that's on there at the moment.

 

[Elpelotero]

3 thoughts from me:
1) Of the amps mentioned, go for the C+, not the III. The C+ is more in line with your playing habits since it's a simpler design.
2) If you want a chunky metal sound, you'll need a C+ equipped with graphic EQ.
3) Don't go for the one in the UK since it lacks EQ. Just be patient and the right one will appear. C+'s go up for sale on a weekly basis. Just wait things out and in the meanwhile, do some research: http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=18184

 

[GD_NC]

My thoughts...

A C+ is a amazing amp. But getting a IIC with an the added cost doing a + upgrade is going to cost a ton. If money is not issue go for it and don't look back.

If money is an issue...

The III is a workhorse that is hard to beat for the $$. Loaded III's are selling for less than a grand. They will blow the wheels off most any other amp in that price range.

Based on what you play I would not rule out a IIB. If you love a simple amp that sounds great the IIB is a killer for 1/3rd the cost of a IIC. My first boogie was a well used IIB 60w head with no options I picked up in 1989. Great amp I really wish I had held on to, but I sold it to fund a Mark IV. No, it's not a IIC+, but it's darn close.

The good news, you can usually sell any of the above for what you paid for them. Used boogies are basically free. Just put down the deposit and get it all back when you are done. Worst case you might have to put a couple of hundred so in for new tubes, caps and a tune up. So don't be afraid to pick up a couple of them and see which one is the keeper.

 

[Tuna141]

Since buying the C and having it upgraded will cost big bucks with shipping overseas, and all, I say you go for the Mark III.

This may also help: I have a C (not a C+) and a III blue stripe. I love both amps. The III is my go to amp - great thick distortion tone. The C has lower gain and more of a vintage tone. The C's clean is slightly better than the III's - more livelier and full. I love playing leads on the C because of its great singing sustain, but like to play rhythms/chording on the III more than the C. The III is more versitile than the C due to its extra channel, but I don't think that matters much to you. The C's distortion can sound harsh at times, but that's what makes the lead tone so great - really cuts through a mix. The III's distortion is smoother.

Hope this info helps some...

 

[IBA]

First of all thanks a lot to all of you guys. You are helping a lot (man, I love this forum! there's a lot of knowledge and experience on the discussed subjects and even more mutual respect ) As you all mentioned, buying a Mk2C, shipping it back and forth and turning it into a Mk2C+ is a lot of hassle and cash.

Is it the IIC in blonde on eBay at the moment? (140370859975)

I wouldn't touch it - too much money, the guy is now making out that it 'could be a C+' because of a black dot above the power cord. I've never ever seen a C+ with anything other than a clear + on the back. Apart from that, he was saying that the '50w [sic] Boogies sound much better'. Of course, you can switch the 100W/Simul models down to 60W anyhow.

Anyway, that's my opinion on that one that's on there at the moment.

Hey Zebpedersen, that was the one but I felt the same as you said in your post Thats why I decided to try and post something here and you cannot imagine how glad I am about it.

The simulclass mod would not be possible on a sixty watter. You would need (4) power tube sockets.
Jim

I'm not certain there is such a thing anymore anyway, althought I think it's been done before.

That's another good example of how clueless I am when it comes to MB amps. I thought I read somewhere that it has been done, but I wasnt very sure because the output valve/tube combination and the standard simul-clas power ratings dont add up in my head.

3 thoughts from me:
1) Of the amps mentioned, go for the C+, not the III. The C+ is more in line with your playing habits since it's a simpler design.
2) If you want a chunky metal sound, you'll need a C+ equipped with graphic EQ.
3) Don't go for the one in the UK since it lacks EQ. Just be patient and the right one will appear. C+'s go up for sale on a weekly basis. Just wait things out and in the meanwhile, do some research: http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=18184

you are right about the Mk2C+ It sounds like the type of amp I might have lots of fun with, but at the moment its beyond the amount of money im able to spend in one go. Thats why i was thinking of the IIC and the upgrade afterwards (but I do admit that its a silly plan now )

Also I've read somewhere in this forum that Mike prefers the non GEQ MkIIC+ mentioning some sort of tone loss in the EQ ones. He says that its better to use an eq in the fx loop... (personally I dont have the experience to form an opinion about this subject but I think its very interesting).

Based on what you play I would not rule out a IIB. If you love a simple amp that sounds great the IIB is a killer for 1/3rd the cost of a IIC. My first boogie was a well used IIB 60w head with no options I picked up in 1989. Great amp I really wish I had held on to, but I sold it to fund a Mark IV. No, it's not a IIC+, but it's darn close

Hi GD_NC, I think that's also a great piece of advice. My only fear is, that sound-wise earlier Marks may be closer from the marshall type of character than from the MB aggression (I dont know, Im just asking). The thing is that I already have a few amps that sound that way such as Marshall jmp 2203, and JCM 800 superbass (that I'm actually selling), Laney klipp, Sovtek Mig100h or the Orange Tiny Terror.

Would I get closer to that aggression with a iiB or with a III? I believe the cleans on the MkI and MkII series must be some of the best you can get out of any amp, but I think right now I should base my decision on distorted sounds since I use them more often and in more contexts. Suggestions welcomed :?

It sounds also like the MkIII is a very serious contender from what al most all of you say isnt it?. That was my original idea after reading this http://homepage.mac.com/mesaboogie/dot.html (and once i found out about the prices of the MkIIc+). I thought about getting a black dot and turning it into a iic+ (is it worth it?). But if not getting a red stripe since some users who owe them and A/B'd them with the the 2c+ say its the closest.

I read also somewhere (i think in the Boogie Board forum) that the sound of the red stripe and the 2c+ is virtually the same but the big difference is the feel and response of the amp (being the 2c+ miles ahead). I also read somewhere that John Sykes said that he can make his MkIII sound exactly as his Mk2c+ (coliseums I think...).

OMG why do I always talk so much??? sorry guys and thank you a lot. it feels great to have your advice, experiences and opinions on my side.

 

[Facelift]

Never tried a IIC but after owning a mark III blue stripe, I cant see it being any better.

 

[GD_NC]

Hi GD_NC, I think that's also a great piece of advice. My only fear is, that sound-wise earlier Marks may be closer from the marshall type of character than from the MB aggression (I dont know, Im just asking). The thing is that I already have a few amps that sound that way such as Marshall jmp 2203, and JCM 800 superbass (that I'm actually selling), Laney klipp, Sovtek Mig100h or the Orange Tiny Terror.

I wouldn't be worried about any Mark Series amp sounding like a Marshall. They really just don't. Especially not with 6L6's in them. There is something about the texture of the "crunch" that is completely different between the two. In fact, if I had a $1 for every time the following was posted on this forum... "I love the Fender like-clean and the Boogie lead but how do I get R2 to sound just like my JCM 800"

Would I get closer to that aggression with a iiB or with a III? I believe the cleans on the MkI and MkII series must be some of the best you can get out of any amp, but I think right now I should base my decision on distorted sounds since I use them more often and in more contexts. Suggestions welcomed

Honestly, it's been many years since I played a IIb and a III side by side. I'm pretty sure the III would win for the most aggressive attack between the two. But don't worry a IIb has the boogie sound in spades and tons of gain on tap.


III's are certainly a lot more common and thus easier to find. I'd shoot for a Loaded Simulclass Greenstripe. That was the final version.

 

[silentrage]

I've learned my lesson.
No amount of clips, youtube vids and dicussions will ever let you know what an amp really sounds like or feels like, and in many cases an amp doesn't sound better or worst than another amp. They may "feel" differently, but even that's subjective.

So... stop worrying, get yourself one of the amps you listed, and play it.
Worst case scenario, you dont' like it, you sell it for how much you bought it for and buy the other one.

 

[zebpedersen]

Just spent the morning with my '81 IIB - trust me, it sounds nothing like a Marshall! Mine is a 100W class A model with EQ & reverb...you could get even further away from any notion of British-ness by going for a Simul model.

Having skimmed the above I did have a couple of thoughts (not sure if these points have already been addressed but anyway...)

- The 60W to Simul upgrade is possible but would require new transformers and power board, but I'm 90% sure I've read here that someone had it done.

- In my opinion the reason to go for a IIC over a IIB would be for the reduction in noise on the reverb & FX loop and the fixing of the footswitch pop rather than for sonic reasons - you're going to be miles away from your Marshall sound whichever one you go for. That said, my Mark IV pops sometimes when you switch from LD to RHY1 so I'm guessing it's not a 100% cure on the IIC/+.

- The shipping will murder you on a IIC+ upgrade, though by the sounds of things you've already abandoned that idea.

- There seem to be more Mark IIs on eBay than IIIs recently, though about 4/5 months ago it was the other way round. Don't limit yourself to eBay, you can occasionally get a decent deal on Craigslist, though I've never found anything that great on there.

- Try the classifieds on this board, if you haven't already.

And just another vote for the IIB really - it's very short sighted to think of the Mark II being 'rubbish if it's not a C+'. Just because Metallica use the C+, doesn't mean you can't get mad aggression from a IIB! And equally you can get a smooth, beautiful Boogie lead, a KILLER afrobeat/funky-Lagos tone (which I was playing with this morning), country, low gain blues, hi gain blues...you name it, you got it. I love the IIB.

Anyway take whatever you want from those points.

 

[IBA]

Hey guys I really appreciate your input.

All points taken and considered, and I've closed a deal for a fully loaded mk3 -apart from the export transformer.

Is it possible to order an export transformer for a Mk3 from Mesa nowadays? I suppose I'll start using one of those 'step downs'. Any words of advice on this?

PD. Now Im really curious about all those Mkii versions too. And considering that personally I never cared much about Metallica or Dream Theater... the Afrobeat/Funk stuff is also something I have in high regard 8)
BTW, :?: was Neal Schon using a MkI in Abraxas and Santana III to? (III's leads are 90% Schon and I love that album)

 

[Boogiebabies]

The closest you will get for the export pt is the Mesa 561141 from the MK IV. It's a perfect match though. Just don't use the tweed function
or the 12V taps. The tweed function would be very cool though.

 

[zebpedersen]

Nice one man, III will likely be my next amp too - let us know how you get on!

Personally I wouldn't bother swapping the tranny, I use a stepdown on my Princeton and it works absolutely fine, they're not that expensive and people use them all the time. (Obviously a Mark is a more powerful beast, but I'm satisfied with their performance in my experience).

AFAIK the tones on Abraxas are from a Princeton Boost? But a Mark I kills for Santana tone whatever.

And the Mark II is so much more than just the IIC+/DT/Metallica sound!

I was taught a long time ago by a guy who was in the band Ofo the Black Company, and he said they pretty much just used whatever gear was available, Twins and Marshalls mostly, rather than the expensive Boogie amps, however I can nail a funky Nigerian tone with my Mark II

Have fun with the III!