I just got a load of NOS tubes- any advice?

[pauloc79]

Hi everyone,

I just got a load of NOS tubes to put in my Mesa Express head, all AVO tested and working well, heres what i got-

2x Mullard Ecc83
1x Brimar Ecc83
1x GE Ecc83 Longplate
1x Amperex Ecc83
2x new (not vintage) Ei Ecc93
2x Mullard EL84

I also have the 5x Mesa Tubes that came in the amp.

I have put in the Mullard EL 84s, they sound much warmer and organic than the Mesa tubes.

The problem is I have tried quite a few combinations of preamp tubes, but can't find the magic formula- best so far is.

v1 Brimar
v2 Mullard
v3 GE Longplate
v3 Ei
v4 Ei

I don't really like a Mullard in v1 as well as v2, it sounds too dark to me.
The amperex valve in v1 sounds too fizzy.

Anyone tried the new Ei ECC83 Tubes?

I'm looking for a really saturated 'plummy' lead tone, i like lots of gain and use a Maxon OD808 sometimes.

Does anyone have any advice, I understand the significance of the v1, v2 and v3 but not really of v4 the phase splitter/driver- how much does this tube change the sound/tone?

Also will the valves take some time to settle/burn in? I'm kind of regretting changing things now as i'm spending more time messing around with valves than playing, any help would be great!

Cheers,

Paul


Kit is,


Mesa Express 5:25 Head
2x12 Recto Cab
THD Hot Plate running at -12db
Maxon OD808

 

[nwoforlif]

The EI's are a really good clone of the Telefunken 12ax7 smoothplate. Killer tube with loads of gain but most are microphonic. This is due to bad quality control in Yugoslavia where they were made. I would try the EI in V1 or V5 but expect them to be noisy if they are microphonic in V1.

Shredd6 is right about the Mullard in V2 and the GE in V3

NWOFORLIF

I've never really heard anyone refer to a Mullard ecc83 as dark. If anything, the GE is dark compared to the rest of what I see. I don't really know about the EI, never bought a modern one.

If you're looking for more of a gainy sound, I'd say pick up a couple of RCA 12ax7a's. One for V1 and 1 for V5. Then utilize the Mullards and Brimar for the rest of the slots. If you feel like you're lacking any Bass at that point, put the GE back in V3 or pick up an RCA 12ax7 long-plate for V3 (even gainier).

 

[fishyfishfish]

Loan some to me!

 

[stephen sawall]

Put the Boogie tubes in everything but V1.
Try all the tubes one at a time here.
V1 has the most effect on the gain and tone.
You want to do this first.
This well let you hear each of tubes voice.
You may need to take a few runs thru.

Then do the same with the phase inverter.
Then V2.....V3.....etc.

This well take some time.
If everything starts sounding the same take a break.

The new or Mesa tubes may sound best in the amp.
Let your ears do the work....only then can we be honest.

Belive me this is the way.

 

[Old BF Shred]

Put the Boogie tubes in everything but V1.
Try all the tubes one at a time here.
V1 has the most effect on the gain and tone.
You want to do this first.
This well let you hear each of tubes voice.
You may need to take a few runs thru.

Then do the same with the phase inverter.
Then V2.....V3.....etc.

This well take some time.
If everything starts sounding the same take a break.

The new or Mesa tubes may sound best in the amp.
Let your ears do the work....only then can we be honest.

Belive me this is the way.

A big +1 on this....only way to really hear a difference!

 

[pauloc79]

I was afraid you guys might say something like that, I have reverted back to the Mesa Tubes and i'm starting again from scratch- There was too much temptation to put everything in at once which was just too confusing. I wish I had more time, both for playing and for tweaking!

One other question I had was regarding microphonics, what is the sound characteristic of a microphonic tube? ..... and will the problem be present in any slot you use the valve in?
The guy I got the Ei tubes from said they sound great, but I have read about quality issues on the net- going to try them in v1 tonight!

 

[nwoforlif]

If a tube is microphonic it will feedback like crazy when you mute the strings. It will not stop feedbacking even if you turn the guitars volume all the way down either.

Also try one tube at a time. I know it sounds like a pain in the *** but it will tell you which tubes sound like **** and which ones sound like god.

NWOFORLIF

I was afraid you guys might say something like that, I have reverted back to the Mesa Tubes and i'm starting again from scratch- There was too much temptation to put everything in at once which was just too confusing. I wish I had more time, both for playing and for tweaking!

One other question I had was regarding microphonics, what is the sound characteristic of a microphonic tube? ..... and will the problem be present in any slot you use the valve in?
The guy I got the Ei tubes from said they sound great, but I have read about quality issues on the net- going to try them in v1 tonight!

 

[stephen sawall]

I have about Five grand worth of tubes here.
I started off with tubes at 6 by 12 I had more than a few.
Well over a 100 preamp tubes.
No two sound the same. Even the ones that look the same.
What works in one amp may not sound good in the other amps.
I need to take notes ~ as it does take time.
I just use a perment marker to mark what tube is what.

Some tubes just stand out as better for what I am doing.
Some amps I have a few V1 tubes to use for a different flavor.

 

[Old BF Shred]

I have about Five grand worth of tubes here.

Hang on to those! Well you can sell some and make some $, but definately keep some for yourself....You don't want what this situation!!....(from one of my other posts)

Now, want to hear some bad news? (ya' all might wanna sit down). My father had a desk drawer full (100's) of old 50's & 60's preamp tubes.....RCA to Sylvania...Tele's to Mullard....many types including 12ax7, u7, t7, y7.....the full 9 yards....Likely thousands of $$$$$$$ worth, and he THREW THEM OUT! Did not even ask me! It's OK if you're sick....I still am!

I look for old tube gear at garage sales mainly for the tubes. As a result I do have some old Telefunken, RCA and Amperex that I am keeping forever!

Good luck

 

[pauloc79]

thanks for the advice everyone, luckily all the tubes I have are good, no feedback etc...

I managed to spend about three hours today trying tubes in v1 and v2 with standard tubes in 3,4 and 5.... so what was the out come...

My favourite in v1 is (surprisingly) the amperex ecc83, it sounds really alive compared to the other tubes, loads of sparkle when clean and smooth high gain without too much fizz (contrary to my previous post). I really liked the balance and distortion of the new Ei tubes but they sound slightly dead or wooden compared to the amperex. Mullards were a little too vintage for my taste in this slot, but the difference was not great! The Brimar was kind of like a weaker mullard.

For v2 it is the GE 12ax7a longplate, this sounds fantastic here, really made the overdrive creamy and plummy, kind of flutey on the high notes....great! The most amazing aspect of the GE was how it opened up the clean sound, lots more depth and definition to bass and sparkling treble- almost hifi! The Mullards came in close second with the same kind of creamy distortion, but the bass was slightly woolly, really nice and vintage sounding (especially clean) but not what i'm after right now. The Brimar was nice overdriven but sounded thin and lightweight when clean, especially compared to the others. The Ei was again better than the mesa tubes but was not as lively or fat as the GE or Mullard.

Most interestingly the sonic differences between valves were greater in v2 than v1 in my Express amp, not sure why this is, because i know that everyone says v1 is most important....? Are the slots in the express in a different order to the bigger mesas? I'm also surprised I have not found a place (yet!) for the mighty Mullards as i've read so much about them. I guess its difficult because everyone has different taste and their own idea of sonic nirvana, i'm not even sure what sound i'm looking for but i'll know when i hear it!

Just so you know the guitars i used are a Fender deluxe players strat with vintage noiseless pickups, a Fender strat with dimarzio cruisers and an dimarzio evo in the bridge and a Jackson Dinky with EMG 81 and 85.

Going to try to do the other slots tomorrow if i get enough time... keep you all posted.

Thanks again for all the help..... my amp is sounding a lot better with the changes so far!

 

[stephen sawall]

Hope you do not end up with the crazy about tubes like a few of us.

I have gone threw this with a lot of amps (mine, freinds).
With a little time and a few tubes you can find .......

"Hang on to those!"

He threw them out ?
This is sad.
I started very young and do not sell them.
Like some people collect stamps.
I do give them to freinds if they have a need for them more than I.
Other things would go first if that is how life takes me.

 

[212Mavguy]

Hope you do not end up with the crazy about tubes like a few of us.

Other things would go first if that is how life takes me.

:shock: OMG! there's someone else in the world as sick as me!

This is a great thread, sensible questions, sensible answers, Pauloc79, you have taken some great steps, way to go!

 

[Old BF Shred]

Most interestingly the sonic differences between valves were greater in v2 than v1 in my Express amp, not sure why this is, because i know that everyone says v1 is most important....?

I don't know about the Express but in many other Mesa's v1 or v2 could be first stage the guitar "sees" depending on mode. In the Stiletto, for example, Fat Clean and Fluid Drive use v2 as first stage. The triaxis also chooses v1 or v2 first, depending on modes.

I also have Amperex tubes (Bugle Boys, specifically) and use one in v2 and I use Telefunken (rib plate) in v1. Both are EXCELLENT, but Tele's have a bit more natural compression that adds sort of a violin-like feel & tone to the playing. :wink:

I will keep experimenting, but that's what I use for now.
All of these old tubes beat the Mesa (basically EH), Tungsram, Ruby and JJ 12ax7's I've used.

Good luck

 

[Timbre Wolf]

:shock: OMG! there's someone else in the world as sick as me!

Did someone call my name? :mrgreen:

I'm also surprised I have not found a place (yet!) for the mighty Mullards as i've read so much about them. I guess its difficult because everyone has different taste and their own idea of sonic nirvana, i'm not even sure what sound i'm looking for but i'll know when i hear it!

I've tried many times to place the "fabled" short-plate Mullard 12AX7A, but they just don't measure up to my standards - there are lots of other 12AX7 that I enjoy much better (for much less cash, too). Same goes for the legendary smooth plate Telefunken; I've tried it and tried it and tried it, but... enh - just not interesting enough.

the new Ei tubes but they sound slightly dead or wooden compared to the amperex.

Gotta agree on this, too - Ei sounds okay to me, but feels too stiff and resistant.

Lest you think I'm just on an iconoclastic binge, and have nary a whit of optimism, I do like the long-plate GE. Sometimes it is my best choice, when I need to fatten up the tone, but retain the clarity. I'm still sitting with that term, plummy, but I can dig it. Yum!

~ Thom

 

[stephen sawall]

http://www.mesaboogie.com/manuals/ExpressSers.pdf

" Most interestingly the sonic differences between valves were greater in v2 than v1 in my Express amp, not sure why this is, because i know that everyone says v1 is most important....? Are the slots in the express in a different order to the bigger mesas?"

You well want to go look at the tube chart at the end of manual.
Looks like you were right about V2.

This is not the case with most amps.

You can take the chart in mind well hearing the tubes to your taste.

 

[Timbre Wolf]

RCA? short-plate 12AX7A? long gray-plate 12AX7? black-plate 12AX7? short-plate 7025? side-getter 12AX7? Which? The only early-breakup RCA I am familiar with is the first black-plate version.

Mullard? long-plate? square or halo getter? short-plate 12AX7A? I63 or I61?

I'm a little baffled. Especially about the Mullard being a "clarity" tube. This is very true if talking about a long-plate, but not the short-plate versions, in my experience. They've got a lot of harmonic distortion, which can be very murky (not clear).

GE? talking about the same long-plate (gray) version?

I'm not trying to criticize, Shredd - just need a little clarification over which tubes you're recommending. And I look forward to comparing experiences of their character, once we're discussing the same tube. I'm curious to understand your recommendations, and perhaps help triangulate a plan for the original poster.

- Thom

 

[stephen sawall]

Accent: Not everyone in Britain speaks with a plummy English accent, like Hollywood wants you to believe.....


Some English flavor in his tone ?
Or thick ? Heavy ?

 

[pauloc79]

Hi everyone,

slightly late reply (two months on!) If anyone is still watching this post I thought i'd sum up my findings....

Basically with the express I kept on swapping tubes out... and settled on mullards in v1 and v2 (shock, horror!) and GE in v3, i stuck the Ei tubes in v4 and v5....

The sound I ended up with worked really well with my strats, BUT- I could never quite get the perfect tone I wanted with my Jackson or Ltd (both sporting EMGs)- although I must say the Express is the best sounding amp I have ever owned by a long long way!

When I talked about 'Plummy' I was thinking of a kind of hotter version of that Malmsteen flute like lead sound. Which I can get really well with a DOD overdrive in front of the amp.

But...... just to mix everything up.... I just brought a Triaxis yesterday, which will be a whole different post/thread when I start messing with that- I hoping that will satisfy my lust for gain and crunch!

see you on the next thread, thanks for all the advice and help,

Paul

 

[stephen sawall]

Thanks for solving the plum.

 

[212Mavguy]

Timbre Wolf is a linguist, he speaks Triaxis well, very well.