Getting a Dual Rectifier to Cut

[bluesymetal]

I'm having a little bit of trouble getting my 2 channel recto to sound clear in the band mix. I'm the only guitarist so it's just bass and drums I'm competeing with.

Im running through a mesa cab with 2 greenbacks and 2 black shadows and a diezel cab with v30's.

My settings are currently using el34's like this: bold, tubes, gain 2:00, treb 1:00, mid 11:00, bass 9:30-10:00, pres 9:00.

I only use a maxon 808 set: gain off, tone noon, drive 3:00 to boost for solos and that helps cut great, but I don't want to leave it on all the time, I also don't like using an eq pedal in the loop.

It sounds absolutly HUGE in the mix, and is great when just playing half a step down, but when I go to drop D flat, I seem to get a little lost in the mix and muffled. It's probally a good thing to just let the vocals really shine and not be overbearing, then really cut for solos, but I would like a little more clarity than I'm getting right now.

I'm going to try running the mids higher tonight at practice, but do you have any other tips? Maybe certain preamp tunes are better than the stock ones at for this?

You can check out www.myspace.com/IIIshot to see the music I play. There is a live video with the recto and just the mesa cab that the camera picked up failry well, but my gf said I sounded a little unclear in person. Theres also a link to about 11 other songs from that show.

 

[Silverwulf]

Not sure what the issue could be. I have no problem cutting through the mix with the band (other guitarist has a Mark III). The Mids on my Rectos are usually set at 12 Noon, and I'm usually using a Maxon OD808 in front as a rhythm boost too - Output max, Gain off, Tone between 10 o'clock to 12 Noon. The Presence on my Rectos usually get up around 12 Noon too, though I use darker tubes.

This may seem like a dumb question, but are you turning up loud enough to be heard or loud enough for the power amp to really kick in some?

 

[Elpelotero]

it's probably the lower tuning that muds it up a bit. Back off some gain and turn up the mids as you said

 

[Silverwulf]

Oh, and I use the same tuning with my band primarily - Drop Db - with one song having the low E string tuned down to Bb (low E only).

 

[bluesymetal]

Not sure what the issue could be. I have no problem cutting through the mix with the band (other guitarist has a Mark III). The Mids on my Rectos are usually set at 12 Noon, and I'm usually using a Maxon OD808 in front as a rhythm boost too - Output max, Gain off, Tone between 10 o'clock to 12 Noon. The Presence on my Rectos usually get up around 12 Noon too, though I use darker tubes.

This may seem like a dumb question, but are you turning up loud enough to be heard or loud enough for the power amp to really kick in some?

Haha yeah defintly am. My output is around 12 and channel master is 11:00. Maybe I should just leave the maxon on all the time, it does make it cut more for solos. I'll fool around some tonight, I'm sure it's just a couple minor tweaks.... the tone is there, just needs to be a little clearer. I'm thinking I have my mids a little to low more than anything.

 

[vertigo_]

yep...on my roadster channel 4 modern - I keep the mids around 12o'clock.

 

[cradlefish]

I max my mids. That's usually the best way to cut through the mix. I have no problems being heard. My gain is is like 10 to 11 for my 2 channel DR. The power amp will give me some my gain when i crank her up. I do have my treble and presence almost max and bass around 11

 

[clutch71]

A couple of things jump out at me.

1) Green backs break up a little early being a lower wattage speaker
2) What guage strings are you using? How often do you replace them?

I've had folks suggest for half step to use EB Skinny top/Heavy Bottoms for Drop D flat but I usually get away with a set of GHS Boomer .10. I do use the EB's on a guitar dropped a whole step.

Just a thought

 

[Turumbar82]

Cranking up the mids has really been the best thing I have found for cutting the mix. When I first started playing I always did the scooped thing but like so many people say, the guitar is a mid-heavy instrument. I've noticed that if I keep my bass low and my mids high and enough treble to add bite I have no problem cutting the mix. I saw a video on youtube of petrucci talking about that is how he eq's. He said that having your lows turned up really sounds muddy and it decreases the attack the amp has. I keep my bass at like 9 oclock and then I have an eq in the loop to add in some bass. It seems like not having tons of bass in the preamp and then adding it back into the loop makes a huge difference in attack and the amps abilility to cut. has anyone else experienced this?

 

[alex1564]

Without the fine tuning of a parametric EQ, you'll never get the precise cut that you and most professional guitarists want. 800 hz is about where the chunk, cut, and pick attack lie. Boost that and you'll have no problem being heard. You need a parametric EQ though because there's mud above and below 800 hz, specifically at 400 hz and 1.6k hz. Much of getting clear and cutting tone is also reducing the muddy frequencies - something your Mids knob can't do.

 

[RawkerMan]

I too run EL34's in my DR and I have but two suggestions:

1. Make sure that noon on your knob's marker IS actually noon.

After having my 2-channel DR for a little over 2 years, I just recently realized that the markers on the knobs didn't properly represent the position of the pot. Instead of traveling clockwise from 7:30 to 4:30, they moved from either 7 to 4 or 6:30 to 3:30. So when I stuck the knob at what I thought was noon, the pot was not sitting midway in its travel. So all of the settings and suggestions I read about weren't properly represented until the knobs were set correctly. I know it's small and minor, but perfection is in the little details with Mesa.

2. Rollback your gain to NOON.

As stated in the Mesa manual, higher gain settings lend to a darker, more saturated, and more compressed tone.

 

[bluesymetal]

Without the fine tuning of a parametric EQ, you'll never get the precise cut that you and most professional guitarists want. 800 hz is about where the chunk, cut, and pick attack lie. Boost that and you'll have no problem being heard. You need a parametric EQ though because there's mud above and below 800 hz, specifically at 400 hz and 1.6k hz. Much of getting clear and cutting tone is also reducing the muddy frequencies - something your Mids knob can't do.

Whats better with a parametric eq compared to a graphic? I can use my bass players GE-20 in the loop if I must, but I'm not super crazy on the tone that the graphic eq's I've tried add.

 

[MikeK]

... It seems like not having tons of bass in the preamp and then adding it back into the loop makes a huge difference in attack and the amps abilility to cut. has anyone else experienced this?

Yes, although I don't add anything back through the loop, I do find that taking the bass down some and turning up the mids can add some definition to the bottom end. Especially with humbuckers. Less mud gives me more cut.

... as for bluesymetal ... after reading your evaluation, looking at your settings and listening to the clips, I suggest switching to the diodes and tweaking around them a little to see if you like it. I think the g/f is right, and maybe switching to the silicon rectifier will give you that clarity you want.

 

[bluesymetal]

I too run EL34's in my DR and I have but two suggestions:

1. Make sure that noon on your knob's marker IS actually noon.

After having my 2-channel DR for a little over 2 years, I just recently realized that the markers on the knobs didn't properly represent the position of the pot. Instead of traveling clockwise from 7:30 to 4:30, they moved from either 7 to 4 or 6:30 to 3:30. So when I stuck the knob at what I thought was noon, the pot was not sitting midway in its travel. So all of the settings and suggestions I read about weren't properly represented until the knobs were set correctly. I know it's small and minor, but perfection is in the little details with Mesa.

2. Rollback your gain to NOON.

As stated in the Mesa manual, higher gain settings lend to a darker, more saturated, and more compressed tone.

I will look into the knobs thing, that is pretty interesting.

I tried doing a bunch of stuff at practice last night and I wasn't reall thrilled with my results, lowering the gain, raising the mids, boosting, etc..

I tried Vintage mode for a while too, but ended up going back to modern. I think Vintage does have some beter lead tones, but modern is better for rhythm. If I can a/b with a clean amp I might just set the recto up for modern red and vintage gain orange for cleans.

If I set the gain to noon and with the mids up the amp became to stiff for me. Like stiffer than my old quickrod and didn't respond very well while soloing. I also like a darker sound, that's why I went with the recto. I'm going for something similar to Jerry Cantrell on Dirt, specifically them bones.

I still kept going back to my original settings that I posted in the beginning. I think I'll try using them with an eq to bring up the mids a bit and take down some lows and highs and see how that works. I'm also gonna see about trying some 6l6's in the power section to see the different feel that provides for the hell of it.

 

[MikeK]

I can use my bass players GE-20 in the loop if I must, but I'm not super crazy on the tone that the graphic eq's I've tried add.

... you can try that but those frequencies on a bass EQ are not the same as the ones on a unit built for guitar so you'll end up with a different effect. A parameteric EQ will allow you to choose your cut/boost frequency(s) instead choosing them from a predetermined graph.

 

[bluesymetal]

I can use my bass players GE-20 in the loop if I must, but I'm not super crazy on the tone that the graphic eq's I've tried add.

... you can try that but those frequencies on a bass EQ are not the same as the ones on a unit built for guitar so you'll end up with a different effect. A parameteric EQ will allow you to choose your cut/boost frequency(s) instead choosing them from a predetermined graph.

You know I never did try silicon diodes... I dont know why, just never thought of it. I'll try that tonight and with the band tomorrow.

It's actually not a bass eq specifically. Its the twin pedal boss eq that lets you save presets, for guitar or bass. He doesn't use it anymore so I fool with from time to time. I'm going to look into parametric eq's still, have any you can reccomend?

 

[Silverwulf]

You know I never did try silicon diodes... I dont know why, just never thought of it. I'll try that tonight and with the band tomorrow.

You're missing out! Modern/Bold/Silicon Diodes = FTW. I'm not sure I ever use the Tube Rectifier mode... 8)

 

[MikeK]

... Oh I know what that is, that's that programmable model ... looks pretty sweet. It should do just fine. Take some time with it, go slow ... one frequency at a time ... up then down ... listen to what each one does as you start to tweak. You'll get the hang of it quickly, or maybe you already have!

I'm sorry I don't have any suggestions for what parametric EQ to try. The only ones I have had any experience with were a couple of Rane rack models on a PA. I never used it in the DR's effects loop so I can't tell you anything about it.

 

[pjrake]

great posts guys!

i've been away from these boards for awhile... but i'll try to chime in.

i used to use the 3rd channel of my dual but it sounded a bit harsh. when i switched to channel 2, the tone just cut through everything!

now i just use channel 2 with a TS9 as a boost and never looked back.

-PJ

 

[strange[ling]]

external eq is the best.....i was playing in a band a while back and we were tuned to drop b and i was getting frustrated keeping the darker sound without it being too muddy so i beefed up to .12-.56 strings and added an external eq and my worries were over......it took a few days of jus jamming and tweeking the eq but i finally managed to drag the tone i wanted out of my setup.....dual rec solo head with 4x12 mesa cabinet with two 2x12 cabinets i grabbed off ebay that are supposedly loaded with madison speakers (never yanked the covers off to see if that's true but really wgas if it sounds cool huh?) and a bbe 362 sonic maximizer occasionally to change up the sound for a couple of songs and at one point i was running an a/b box to an ampeg vh-140c combo that has the smoothest clean tone i ever heard but i got tired of the tap dance after a while.......but back to the issue at hand....run with the eq......it made me a happy man