Frustrations with Mesa... What next?

[visualrocker69]

Wasn't quite sure which section to post this in. Anyway, I bought a Mark IV combo earlier last summer. Now have a Triaxis, 2:90, 4x12, and a growing suspicion that the Mesa sound isn't really "me".

I mean, I LOVE it for thick, sustaining leads, and the cleans are phenomenal in my opinion. Someday, Mesa equipment will definately have a place in my collection (maybe a studio pre or a quad). But right now, when I think of the sound that'll express me as a musician, it's not Mesa.

I need something a bit...looser. LESS articulate and definied. Well, at least a step away from the overwhelming tightness of the Mark sound. Maybe something "crunchy" rather than "buzzy". (There's always been an inescapable fizzy, buzz-like characteristic to Mesa distortion that bugged me.)

Also, part of my frustration is rooted in my actual frustration with the Triaxis. The thing seems so damn... dated. The inability to control EQ on exact increments drives me mad. And the dynamic voice thing. Ugh. Don't even get me started. Whenever I think about it, I'm filled with a distinct feeling of "Oh, Mesa, why have you let technology pass you by?" The Triaxis just doesn't seem up to date with its current peers in the MIDI preamp field, liiiiike the ENGL 580, for example.

Also, the tone feels so incredibly 80's-ish. I mean, THIS is the Mark sound (to a certain extent) and it's really NOT what I want for my rhythm tones, whether high gain or not. For leads - yes. For cleans - absolutely. But not for the vast spectrum of tones in between.

Oh, but, even for the things I like it for, the Triaxis falls short. Like I've been reading on the boards lately, it doesn't sound nearly as organic as the amps it attempts to replicate. Compared to the Mark IV, the distortion sounds boxy, sterile, lifeless. The lack of precision on tone controls is infuriating as I stated before. And the Dynamic Voice... weeeeell, let's just say that the GEQ is one of my favorite features on the Mark IV. Its incredibly powerful tone shaping/altering properties are simply unbelievable. So take that out of a preamp, throw in a pathetic excuse for an EQ adjustment circuit (and a solid state-driven one at that) and what do you get? A very, very, very, very, very frustrated me.

So what's my solution? What DOES have the tone I'm looking for? What would I switch to? Well, in an ideal world... Mesa Studio Pre for leads, ENGL 580 preamp for high gain rhythm, and a Custom Audio 3+ SE pre for everything else... through a VHT power amp. But, it's not an ideal world, and it'll be a while until I can afford all that. So switching to either ENGL preamp or CAE preamp through a VHT power amp might be a start.

Any suggestions?

 

[gonzo]

tone is purely in your head.

what i love, you may hate, vice versa, so it's hard to get any real advice from anyone.... other than yourself.

boils down to how easy/hard it is for you to play as many different amp setups as you can.


have you ever played thru a sound city full stack?!

i have!!

LOL

i would have sworn, at the time, that there would never be a better sound for me.

but i've also run a pignose battery amp, thru a ampeg V-4 halfstack, and thought i'd lose my religion.

i have a mark2b, that i love, but it doesn't give me every sound i dig.

me, personally, the only other amp that has really really really floated my boat, that i've played in the last 3 years, was a bogner shiva combo.

coming from the boogie sound for years and years, i thought the Shiva had the very sound i always wanted.

i don't own a shiva, yet.



if the opportunity came along for me to nab one and i could afford it, i will.

that said, it's like molecules in the air.

on any given day........

 

[ursinus]

Trade the triaxis for an old Quad pre. maybe find yourself an old JMP1 pre for the other tones?

I forgot to mention: Check out the Fuchs Frost Amp, who knows? You may like it.

 

[guitarmaster]

:!:

 

[visualrocker69]

Thanks man, great response.

I'm thinking ENGL is the way to go. But I doubt I'll be able to find the 580 pre in many stores. Which of ENGL's heads has a similar sound to it?

Also, what do you think of VHT's 2/50/2? The other ones seem a bit like overkill for me (at the moment).

if you won't find your ideal tone with this equipment, spend more time practicing at guitar.............I don't tell it to hurt you, but I think that tone is not only in the amps you play, but also in your hands . It's my personal opinion without any intention to make criticisms.................

Oh, without a doubt. Actually, I won't lie - I'm not very good at guitar. I'm mediocre at best. But I like to focus on on musicality rather that on virtuosity. I value melodic phrasing dynamic touch/feel over technical ability or speed. I tend to follow the philosophy that guitarists like David Gilmour can express more in 5 notes than guitarists like Yngwie Malmsteen can say in 5000.

 

[guitarmaster]

:!:

 

[visualrocker69]

Yeah the ENGL 580 is really expensive. But I like the idea of having a preamp/power amp setup because it allows me to add preamps over the years, expanding my tonal possibilities, or something.

Besides, the 580 with the TC Electronic G System from an aesthetic perspective are simply orgasmic.

They match SO well! It almost seems like the same person designed the cosmetics.

A chrome VHT power amp would fit in too. 8)

 

[guitarmaster]

:!:

 

[123thefirst]

Maybe it's a bit too much to expect an amp to provide everything you might ever want for tone, or even the core of what you want, in and of itself.

You might consider a good 31 band EQ. Assuming the pickups and guitar are capable of giving you what you want, a powerful equalizer can sculpt the sound and very drastically effect the feel - tightness/looseness, etc., That as well as a dynamics processor.

 

[Rocky]

There is no multichannel amp that can do it all. Sorry Road King fans. I use my Mesa amps for tones that are slightly broken up or dirty. For Cleans my Harry Joyce and Matchless amps are way superior pieces.

One trick ponies will ALWAYS to a better job than a swiss army knife amp. THat is why you see a lot of amps in a good studio.

 

[RR]

One trick ponies will ALWAYS to a better job than a swiss army knife amp. THat is why you see a lot of amps in a good studio.

Really? :shock: Aw crap, I guess purchasing a modeling amp is out of the question. :x

[note: sarcasm was intended]

 

[123thefirst]

I use my Mesa amps for tones that are slightly broken up or dirty. For Cleans my Harry Joyce and Matchless amps are way superior pieces.

The RK II is second to none in the clean department, but obviously not if you're only using a closed cabinet. Now if you're after a special characteristic of some particular niche amplifier that's another story. But I don't think that's what this thread is about.

 

[visualrocker69]

I understood , you like "modern visual" equipment .

Well I like pretty vintage equipment just as much. IIC+ heads in exotic woods with matching thiele cabs are preeeetty :lol:

VHT 2/50/2 could be the poweramp for you (el34s or 6l6s, i don't know your tastes about tubes.

Well that's quite the dilemma, isn't it? From what I hear, EL-34's will give me more edgy crunch I'm looking for, but will also degrade my clean tone and my lead/solo tone. A bit of a tradeoff, isn't it?

At any rate, since I'm looking to get the **** away from the Mesa sound and more towards the hot-rodded Marshall sound, EL-34's it shall be. For now.

Maybe it's a bit too much to expect an amp to provide everything you might ever want for tone, or even the core of what you want, in and of itself.

Right, you and Rocky make great points. That's why I've been toying with the idea of a multi-amp (or at least multi-preamp) rig for quite some time. However, lacking the funds to put one together in my college days, I can at least strive to get something versatile that will cover a lot of ground and act as part of the "core of what want", right?

That's why I think the ENGL preamp is the perfect choice for me, right now. Though I love the thick & creamy Mesa Mark-voiced leads to death and firmly believe that they will one day have a place in my rig, right now, they're disspointing me in the high gain rhythm department. Not so much "dissapointing me" as "not being what I'm looking for" though.

Anyway, I think I'll start with the ENGL preamp, then add a Custom Audio Preamp for another range of tones and finally a Quad or Studio pre, just for those beautiful Mesa leads.

This brings me to an interesting point... is there any way to have a rig with multiple preamps AND power amps, and have the entire thing interfaced and controllable? For example, have the VHT EL-34 power going with the ENGL pre, and then switching to the Mesa studio pre going through Mesa 6L6 power? Also being able to route things individually (like being able to switch the Custom Audio pre from one power amp to the other) would be nice.

You might consider a good 31 band EQ. Assuming the pickups and guitar are capable of giving you what you want, a powerful equalizer can sculpt the sound and very drastically effect the feel - tightness/looseness, etc., That as well as a dynamics processor.

Are there any good rack EQ's that allow you to store MIDI presets? I don't think I could commit to one EQ setting + on/off. I'd need to be able to store at least 10 different ones and be able to switch via MIDI.

There is no multichannel amp that can do it all. Sorry Road King fans. I use my Mesa amps for tones that are slightly broken up or dirty. For Cleans my Harry Joyce and Matchless amps are way superior pieces.

One trick ponies will ALWAYS to a better job than a swiss army knife amp. THat is why you see a lot of amps in a good studio.

Yup, agree with you there. By the way, which Matchless amps do you like? One of my favorite bands uses them for cleans, but I'm not sure which models...

 

[123thefirst]

Are there any good rack EQ's that allow you to store MIDI presets? I don't think I could commit to one EQ setting + on/off. I'd need to be able to store at least 10 different ones and be able to switch via MIDI.

There are quite a few. The Alesis unit looks pretty nice, especially for the price. You can search in this forum on "EQ + Alesis" for a thread on this.

 

[brokevail]

I would also say check out the marshall JMP-1. The run for under 1K here in the states and sound awsome! At least if you're looking for that marshall sound. Just stay away from the marshall power amps, I hear that don't sound very good

 

[Mr_You]

My suggestion, and what I'm doing, is determine what projects you are currently working on and pick at most two amp heads (2-4 channels each) that you will use.

Keep it simple.

Focus on making and playing live music (at clubs/bars). I'm so jones'in to play out.

My "final" live rig will eventually be (signal in this order):

PRS Hollowbody I or PRS Hollowbody Spruce
Voodoo Lab/DMC GCX Signal Switcher
Front Loop 1: Line 6 Echo Pro (Delay) Stereo Left
Front Loop 2: Line 6 Mod Pro (Modulation) Stereo Left
Amp A: Lone Star w/ 6V6s or 6L6s + Mesa 3/4 1x12(s)
Amp B: Splawn or Marshall JVM (or?) w/ EL34s + Mesa 3/4 1x12(s)
Effects Loop 1: Line 6 Mod Pro (Modulation) Stereo Right
Effects Loop 2: Line 6 Echo Pro (Delay) Stereo Right

Description:

My guitar signal is going into the GCX with front-end delay/modulation via the effects stereo left input/outputs back into the GCX then to amp A/B input+effects loop send back into the GCX out to delay/modulation effects via the effects stereo right input/outputs back into the GCX then effects loop return to amp A/B.

Still need to experiment with it. I would probably get ugly results if I simultaneously had the same effect on in the front and the back. Might also consider mixing two amps if the need arises, or I may end up only needing one amp for each project. I'll post pics and clips when I'm satisfied.

 

[jdurso]

i dont know if your into tubes exclusively but the fractal audio axe-fx is a great great option for what your looking for..... the amp modelling is mind blowing..... this is a way different beast than a L6 Vetta or Boss GT8 or Vox modellers..... this thing set out to emulate the feel and response of a true tube amp and i think they finally figured it out..... put it this way... the Vettas have about 10,000 lines of code for everything in the amp.... the axe-fx has about 40,000 just for amp modelling..... they use incredibly powerful chips and the best part to me is that its just a preamp... meaning you choose your poison when it comes to the power amp..... my friend has one paired with a VHT 2:90 (at one point with a mesa 2:90) and the thing just roars...... if i didnt know it didnt have tubes in it i would have never guessed..... they go for about $1400 and reproduce a wide variety of tones from classic Fender and Marshall tones to Mark IVs to Rectos to Diezels and Bogners..... full pallet of tone

if you're not into something like that you might want to go with a modded ADA MP1 for the crunchy/Marshall-esk tones and/or a VHT GP3 preamp for everything else.... actually the GP3 paired with a VHT 2:90 is pure bliss .... the ENGL stuff is great if you have the money but the VHT and the MP1 is a good alternative..... you can get both for around 1800-1900 which is still less than the ENGL..... if money is not a concern I would recomend just going for the ENGL SE head and call it a day.... that thing has every tone you can think of and all of it is bankable because it has an integrated midi system........ a cheaper alternative might be the Marshall JVM

 

[visualrocker69]

Fractal Audio?

Yeahhhhhhhh, um... not gonna join that cult any time soon, thanks. Successfully emulating the tone and feel of a tube amp? Won't believe it AT LEAST until you have the clips to prove it (which the ones I've heard so far do NOT.) And anyway, have of the fun of that POD is interfacing with the comp via USB and having that real-time graphic representation of the amps and all that jazz. Fun stuff.

if you're not into something like that you might want to go with a modded ADA MP1 for the crunchy/Marshall-esk tones and/or a VHT GP3 preamp for everything else.... actually the GP3 paired with a VHT 2:90 is pure bliss .... the ENGL stuff is great if you have the money but the VHT and the MP1 is a good alternative..... you can get both for around 1800-1900 which is still less than the ENGL..... if money is not a concern I would recomend just going for the ENGL SE head and call it a day.... that thing has every tone you can think of and all of it is bankable because it has an integrated midi system........ a cheaper alternative might be the Marshall JVM

The ENGL SE head is NOT fully midi. The EQ/gain/etc knobs are NOT storable via MIDI. You dial in your channels and then store variations with the other controls. The 580 preamp is the only unit by ENGL that has full midi capabilities.

Anyway, I'm not the kind of person to get one head and "call it a day". There is no one head that will do everything. I need a rig that can grow and evolve!

 

[petejt]

I need something a bit...looser. LESS articulate and definied. Well, at least a step away from the overwhelming tightness of the Mark sound.

To me, loose + no articulation + no definition = Mesa/Boogie Dual Rectifier.



Except for the buzziness.

At higher volumes & full power, the Mark series amps (at least MarkIV) get crunchy rather than buzzy. But the Rectifier amps are buzzy at all volumes.

 

[jdurso]

Fractal Audio?

Yeahhhhhhhh, um... not gonna join that cult any time soon, thanks. Successfully emulating the tone and feel of a tube amp? Won't believe it AT LEAST until you have the clips to prove it (which the ones I've heard so far do NOT.) And anyway, have of the fun of that POD is interfacing with the comp via USB and having that real-time graphic representation of the amps and all that jazz. Fun stuff.

if you're not into something like that you might want to go with a modded ADA MP1 for the crunchy/Marshall-esk tones and/or a VHT GP3 preamp for everything else.... actually the GP3 paired with a VHT 2:90 is pure bliss .... the ENGL stuff is great if you have the money but the VHT and the MP1 is a good alternative..... you can get both for around 1800-1900 which is still less than the ENGL..... if money is not a concern I would recomend just going for the ENGL SE head and call it a day.... that thing has every tone you can think of and all of it is bankable because it has an integrated midi system........ a cheaper alternative might be the Marshall JVM

The ENGL SE head is NOT fully midi. The EQ/gain/etc knobs are NOT storable via MIDI. You dial in your channels and then store variations with the other controls. The 580 preamp is the only unit by ENGL that has full midi capabilities.

Anyway, I'm not the kind of person to get one head and "call it a day". There is no one head that will do everything. I need a rig that can grow and evolve!

your the one asking for opinions... no need to get testy

as for the fractal unit..... you can have what ever preconcieved notions you want but that unit is in its own league.... it has all the little nuances of a tube pre.... and the fact that your using what ever power amp you want is a great option for flexibility...... there is no one amp to rule them all but the axe-fx comes damn close for not being a tube pre.... plus the fx are eventide quality and considering your getting incredible sounding amp models and eventide quality fx for $1350, that to me is an incredibly powerful unit.... but to each his own.

as for the engl se i was damn impressed with the variety of tone you can setup in the presets.... i understand you can't store every part of the patch (eq/gain), but the options you can store gives you a hell of a lot of flexibility as far as heads go.

again i'm not trying to say there is one solution out there... i was merely trying to through some options out there that weren't mentioned