Finding "that" Mesa sound: How do Mesa amps feel in general? (compared to an 800?)

[Caca_Spaniel_123]

Greetings everybody, first post here on the forum. I come forth with a simple question; how gained out and compressed are Mesa amps in general.. or simply how do they play?

Edit: I've found a clip comparing a Mkiii with a MkV and I MUCH prefer the MKIII, that is the sound I'm looking for.

I've been listening to lots of Mesa clips on YouTube and to me these two clips seems to have that signature Mesa sound that I'll try to put into words.. Harmonically rich and saturated, full-bodied and warm?

They sound quite different from Marshalls which IMO is narrower, punchier, more direct and ballsier. Almost like an "acoustisized" sound of an electric guitar, very natural and organic.

I was wondering whether it would make musical sense to play Mesa in a Marshall's place, if that makes any sense. Thank you all in advance.

Below are more personal info of my needs/thoughts, its long so feel free to skip.


I mainly play alternative rock music, its kinda hard to pin down the exact genre but I come from playing an 800 with an tube screamer or a klon and thats about as much gain I'd ever need. Thats my tonal base.

My choice of guitars would better explain my tonal palate, I have a Les Paul that has PAFs, another that has BKP Riff Raffs and a strat for dirty clean tones.

I'm not looking for a do it all amp here, I was wanna know what I'm getting with Mesa amps. I have no clue how they play and none of my local stores have them out for me to try.

I'm interested in the Fillmore, Triple Crown, Mark and Badlander lineup, it seems like either the vintagy Fillmore or the flagship Mark series would suit me best but the other two seems to be cool as well.

My thoughts on some other similar amps that usually goes from dirty clean to moderate high gain:

Friedman BE100: very nice modded plexi sound, a tad too polishes sounding, a bit less so with the C45 engaged.

Friedman JJ100: more aggression but no crunch channel.

Marshall 2555, 2210, 4100: amps that have character, maybe not the nicest amps amps but unique sounding. Maybe not the most versatile amps except the silver jub

Marshall 800, 1959, 1987: that marshall sound, but more options could have been nicer. Plexis need an attenuator which is a hassle

JTM45: maybe a tad too polite bluesy for my main amp. Id use it as a backup clean head.

Soldano: meant for studio guys but has that awesome blown up, turned up to 10 sound. Also has that boutique feel to it.. but less so than friedman amps. Has that sizzle that I love. Crunch channel could have a tad more gain before 10, past 10 to 11 it gets a bit boomy.

VH4: By far the best multi channel switcher, a polished 800 kinda thing with more low mids.. a German 800. Billy Corgan used to have one with now I understans why.

OG Peavey 5150 (rhythm + crunch): hotrodded 800 vibe but with a Peavey voice. Cant cleans or crunch with the rhythm high gain sound which is tragic, this is why it cant be my main amp. I rarely use the red lead channel

EVH 5150 (all versions): a bit gained out and modern sounding for my taste. Weird clean channel on both stealth versions

Dual/Triple Rectos: instantly recognisable tone but again too gained out.

Carsten Grace: this is so close to what I'm looking for, but its missing whatever its missing and that drives me nuts. Love the single channel design.



So that was a rather vague question but I hope I was able to put out what I had in my mind. Thank you all in advance.

 

[bandit2013]

The RA100 is a mild mannered Mesa that has yet to be replicated again. The clean channel is quite interesting and enjoyable through the full gain range. Fender cleans to Plexi gain characteristics. It is rather warm toned (beefy) so dialing back on the bass and pushing the midrange and treble to some extent helps. The other two channels, vintage LO gain and vintage HI gain are very similar to the Marshall Silver Jubilee 2555x 100W but with more refinement in its characteristics. I found that two NOS tubes bring out the best of that amp, RFT12AX7 (ECC83) used in the V1 position and the Ei CV492 (Mullard copy) will tighten up the low end and deliver really good usable gain structure. I found the stock Mesa (JJ ECC83s) tubes tend to get too much low end mush. I have also had great success with the current production Mullard CV4004 in V1 and the Mullard reissue long plate 12AX7 in V2. As for the clean preamp, it is separate from the Hi/Lo channels which uses two different tubes for its preamp section. To top it off, the plate voltage is 400VDC so if NOS EL34 tubes are your thing, it is a good fit. I much prefer the SED =C= EL34 tubes as it enhances the power tube saturation effect when using the multi-soak feature. Awesome amp in all respects. It is not over the top or under-performing. I generally run the Hi gain channel and leave it there. Since I run passive pickups, all I need to do is to reduce the guitar volume on the instrument to clean up the sound or increase the guitar volume for that moderate gain and grind. This is one of the most underrated Mesa amps ever made. However, it is rather large and heavy. I can get some similar characteristics with this amp using a 10 band GEQ in the FX loop to the Rectifier or Mark amps. Works well with 7 string or standard 6 string guitars. It is best served up with a Mesa Standard slant front 412 cabinet. There is a combo 212 available as well, much heaver than the head. I have that too. I like to run both in a stereo setup (combo is driving its speakers as well as a horizontal 212 cabinet). To me this is my favorite amp of all time Mesa has ever made. That is my opinion, I am sure others would disagree. This is the only amp for me that I get lost with, meaning that it draws me in and I loose track of time. I can spend hours on end playing through this amp. It is rather a simple set and forget type of amp. Very easy to dial in and just leave it there.

Its replacement was the Triple Crown 100. Not quite the same amp. More gain and less dynamics. The Multi-soak does not provide that power tube saturation effect, it is more of an attenuator. Hi and low gain stages are followed with op-amps that retain the high gain characteristics so you are forced to use the clean channel if you want that clean sound and change channels for higher gain. Not as dynamic as the RA100. I have the TC100 as well. Still a fun amp, just lacks the sonic quality of the RA100.

Badlander is the next one that falls into the gain structure of not over the top. Similar in characteristics of a hot rodded JCM800. More aggressive gain than the RA100 but dynamics are almost the same. I can get a good clean sound from a moderate gain setting on the crunch or crush modes without having to touch the amp, just roll back on the guitar volume. This is the amp we use during our jam sessions. Note definition and detail is very close to the JP2C.

The Mark VII is a really good amp too. It is one of the better more recent Mark amps released. It is more comprehensive in some respects. You can get similar sounds from the crunch and VII modes that you get with the Badlander (key word here is similar not the same) and on CH3 you have that IIC and IV modes that are very much in line with the JP2C amp. The IIB mode, I am still figuring out. Different but interesting in many respects. Still learning the ropes with this one.

JP2C is another mark amp I can enjoy for hours on end. More tone density than the Mark VII. Power tubes make a huge difference with this one. STR415 NOS Sylvania 6L6GC tubes are a must have but not mandatory since the TAD 6L6GC red base tube Mesa STR448 is very close to that Sylvania sound. the STR445 6L6GC tubes also seem to sound very close to the Sylvania tubes in the JP2C. Mesa has been shipping this amp with the STR443 tubes which I felt did no justice for the amp. Perhaps with the change in transformers it makes a difference as the manufacturer was changed in 2021. The Mark VII gets close but not quite there in sonic delivery. I had a Mark III blue stripe combo but sold it before I got back into playing guitar again. The JP2C has helped to eliminate that regret of selling the amp. The Mark VII is on that same page but a little different.

Feel, they are about on equal footing in most respects. The two amps that make you feel the amp is part of your guitar would be the RA100 and JP2C. I feel connected more so with the RA100 but that was after some experimentation with preamp tubes. I can get what I want to get from that amp without changing channels. the JP2C is a close second but depends on the power tubes you are using. I do not feel as connected with the Mark VII but it is a new amp and I am working things out with it. Badlander, sure, I feel connected with that amp as well but seems to have a different attitude to it. I do like it a lot as it is. It works for me.

 

[bandit2013]

My apology on the reference to the JCM800. I only commented on the Badlander as others have mentioned that. The only Marshall I have is the Silver Jubilee 2555X 100W. That one is a bit different since it does not have a tube driven cold clipper circuit like found with the 2203/2204 layout that was used for the Me-Too amps like Friedman, Soldano and many others that made copies of the Marshall amps. The Mesa equivalents would be the Dual Rectifier line but they are primarily on the 6L6GC platform than the EL34 and its variants. If you need a good reference to the JCM800, I would think an EL34 based amp would be the way to go. That may include the Stiletto series including the ACE. The Electra Dyne sort of falls into this category based on the preamp design, cold clipper and DC coupled cathode follower tone stack driver.

Mark series amps generally have the tone stack closer to the front end, sandwiched between the first and second gain stage. Since the IIC amps, the lead drive circuit has remained the staple of the Mark amp and has been that way since. Clean modes would bypass it and lead modes would not. The Mark VII does something different with the crunch and VII modes, using relays, the lead drive circuit can be placed in front of the tone stack. Some triodes can be bypassed for a different effect for some of the modes: Crunch, VII and IIB. I made a graphic of the Mark VII and typical Mark circuits to reveal how the signal path gets altered. I even did one for the Badlander as I need to remember where the cathode follower circuits are located in case I decide to try some alternate preamp tubes in it. Some Russian tubes cannot be used in the cathode follower locations. I did this for my reference as I found trying to follow the tube task chart in the manual was a bit too much to interpret. The top row would be the basic for a IIC+, III, IV, and JP2C. I did not include the phase inverter tube, it would be after the GEQ. The Mark V90 and Mark V:25 or V:35 are different. I did not include them in the diagram. This moves the triodes around based on the signal path. Mark amps do not have any cathode follower circuits to date.

Note: this is for the Badlander only, the phase inverter tube (V5) was omitted for simplicity. Common JCM800 will only have three 12AX7 tubes.
If I did a graphic of it, it would be one green, one blue, two purple and the TS. Phase inverter was not represented in the images below. JCM800 would be V1A (first gain stage) V1B (cold clipper) V2A/B (dc coupled cathode follower tone stack driver) and V3A/B (phase inverter).

 

[GJgo]

OP, are you talking about an original 800 or a reissue? If you're used to the feels of an original, then I suggest you go find a Mark II, III or maybe a IV and give it a go.

If you're used to a reissue then you may be happy with a Mark VII or a Badlander. I'd start with a Badlander with EL34s in this case since it's going to be the most familiar and yet still be distinctly Mesa- that said, like a Marshall, the Badlander has no ***. "That" Mark / Recto sound includes a lot of ***...

If raw organic feels are important to you, there's something older amps have in both brands that newer ones just don't.

 

[bandit2013]

I need to admit something, I was working with the Badlander as I was preparing to roll in some preamp tubes to see if this amp could be altered by simple means. I pulled the chassis out and took another look at the preamp design. I was completely wrong with my first analysis and miss read a resistance value as 15k ohms. It was actually 1.5k. In other words, V3B is not a cold clipper circuit.

Actually I measured all of the plate and cathode resistors and discovered something.
The Badlander preamp design is much closer to the Mark VII configured in crunch or VII modes. It does not have a cold clipper circuit. My mistake. I have confirmed this several times today and found the actual resistors connected to the triode circuits to verify.

 

[Caca_Spaniel_123]

OP, are you talking about an original 800 or a reissue? If you're used to the feels of an original, then I suggest you go find a Mark II, III or maybe a IV and give it a go.

If you're used to a reissue then you may be happy with a Mark VII or a Badlander. I'd start with a Badlander with EL34s in this case since it's going to be the most familiar and yet still be distinctly Mesa- that said, like a Marshall, the Badlander has no ***. "That" Mark / Recto sound includes a lot of ***...

If raw organic feels are important to you, there's something older amps have in both brands that newer ones just don't.

I actually prefer reissued 800s because they retain the vintagy oldschool vibe without the sagginess.. that I like out of an JMP master volumr or a plexi but I find old 800s a bit hard to play.

I'll defo give the Badlander and the Mark VII a go, older Marks are unobtainium these days anyways. Thanks!

 

[Caca_Spaniel_123]

I need to admit something, I was working with the Badlander as I was preparing to roll in some preamp tubes to see if this amp could be altered by simple means. I pulled the chassis out and took another look at the preamp design. I was completely wrong with my first analysis and miss read a resistance value as 15k ohms. It was actually 1.5k. In other words, V3B is not a cold clipper circuit.

Actually I measured all of the plate and cathode resistors and discovered something.
The Badlander preamp design is much closer to the Mark VII configured in crunch or VII modes. It does not have a cold clipper circuit. My mistake. I have confirmed this several times today and found the actual resistors connected to the triode circuits to verify.

Looks like Mark VII it is then. I'll make sure to try one out if I can.

 

[bandit2013]

If they have both, try them both out. Try out the TC100 as that is similar to the RA100 to some degree. Too bad that amp was discontinued.

Mark VII is a really good amp. So is the Badlander. You get more features with the Mark VII along with three selectable channels, GEQ and a means to turn on and off the FX loop. Also the Mark VII uses Midi control which makes it easier to control the amp with aftermarket products. The Badlander and Mark VII are the only Mesa products thus far that use the IR Cab Clone. Both have three power modes to choose from but only one has a Variac power mode, the Badlander, that helps to improve harmonic content and sounds more like the Rectifier amp in spirit but not in delivery of tone.

When I got the Badlander, I called it the Poor-man's JP2C as it has that characteristic to it. At the time I was using the STR443 power tubes in the JP as I wore out the original STR440 tubes and that was the only replacement available. Now I have to find out if the Bad will sound as epic with the STR415 NOS Sylvania tubes. However, the EL34 power as its primary tube choice does have that hot rodded Marshall sound to it. I jumped the gun on my first poking around on the amp and miss-read 1.504k as 15.04k It was not until I looked at the circuits again last night before tube rolling the amp. Now I realize why it sounds familiar to the Mark series on crush mode. It does retain some of that Rectifier tone on crunch which is more or less wired like the IIB circuit since it bypasses the triode with the 82k plate resistor, the only difference is the tone stack is post gain not pre gain.

 

[RCR]

Like you, I come from playing Marshall's. I have a love hate thing with Boogies, more about how they feel from a player's standpoint than anything else. I always feel I'm fighting with most Boogies all night, but when I hear a recording, I normally like the tones. A Mark in particular is going to respond to touch much differently than you are used to.
I have a little Subway Rocket that I have run for a couple of decades as my small gig grab and go amp and have had a couple heads i wish I would have kept. One was an old .50 cal plus that was a killer straight up rock amp and the other an F 30 short head. I'm more in the Gary Moore Camp, so a Mark is stiff feeling and not touch sensitive enough for me. I really like the Recs, Stiletto, F Series, 50 Cal Plus and the little Rocket's though.
One thing in particular is the build quality of a Boogie, very, very reliable amps for a gigging player.
My main big rigs right now are a first gen PRS Archon head and a old JCM 900 Dual master Marshall 50.

 

[Snicksound]

Greetings everybody, first post here on the forum. I come forth with a simple question; how gained out and compressed are Mesa amps in general.. or simply how do they play?

Edit: I've found a clip comparing a Mkiii with a MkV and I MUCH prefer the MKIII, that is the sound I'm looking for.

I've been listening to lots of Mesa clips on YouTube and to me these two clips seems to have that signature Mesa sound that I'll try to put into words.. Harmonically rich and saturated, full-bodied and warm?

They sound quite different from Marshalls which IMO is narrower, punchier, more direct and ballsier. Almost like an "acoustisized" sound of an electric guitar, very natural and organic.

I was wondering whether it would make musical sense to play Mesa in a Marshall's place, if that makes any sense. Thank you all in advance.

Below are more personal info of my needs/thoughts, its long so feel free to skip.


I mainly play alternative rock music, its kinda hard to pin down the exact genre but I come from playing an 800 with an tube screamer or a klon and thats about as much gain I'd ever need. Thats my tonal base.

My choice of guitars would better explain my tonal palate, I have a Les Paul that has PAFs, another that has BKP Riff Raffs and a strat for dirty clean tones.

I'm not looking for a do it all amp here, I was wanna know what I'm getting with Mesa amps. I have no clue how they play and none of my local stores have them out for me to try.

I'm interested in the Fillmore, Triple Crown, Mark and Badlander lineup, it seems like either the vintagy Fillmore or the flagship Mark series would suit me best but the other two seems to be cool as well.

My thoughts on some other similar amps that usually goes from dirty clean to moderate high gain:

Friedman BE100: very nice modded plexi sound, a tad too polishes sounding, a bit less so with the C45 engaged.

Friedman JJ100: more aggression but no crunch channel.

Marshall 2555, 2210, 4100: amps that have character, maybe not the nicest amps amps but unique sounding. Maybe not the most versatile amps except the silver jub

Marshall 800, 1959, 1987: that marshall sound, but more options could have been nicer. Plexis need an attenuator which is a hassle

JTM45: maybe a tad too polite bluesy for my main amp. Id use it as a backup clean head.

Soldano: meant for studio guys but has that awesome blown up, turned up to 10 sound. Also has that boutique feel to it.. but less so than friedman amps. Has that sizzle that I love. Crunch channel could have a tad more gain before 10, past 10 to 11 it gets a bit boomy.

VH4: By far the best multi channel switcher, a polished 800 kinda thing with more low mids.. a German 800. Billy Corgan used to have one with now I understans why.

OG Peavey 5150 (rhythm + crunch): hotrodded 800 vibe but with a Peavey voice. Cant cleans or crunch with the rhythm high gain sound which is tragic, this is why it cant be my main amp. I rarely use the red lead channel

EVH 5150 (all versions): a bit gained out and modern sounding for my taste. Weird clean channel on both stealth versions

Dual/Triple Rectos: instantly recognisable tone but again too gained out.

Carsten Grace: this is so close to what I'm looking for, but its missing whatever its missing and that drives me nuts. Love the single channel design.



So that was a rather vague question but I hope I was able to put out what I had in my mind. Thank you all in advance.

I've been mostly a JCM800 (classic single channel circuit) for most of my life. I do still love Mesa amps of course, but... Not all of them.

I used to have a Mark IV for a while, I loved being able to get the Black album sound out of it without the need for pedals. The clean was to die for. Problem is I couldn't get it to do that 800 mid gain crunch thing properly (yet it can do crunch, but it doesn't "snarl" like a Marshall). Eventually sold it to finance a JCM800 clone build which I still use 15 years later.

I was excited when the Mark V came out, seemed to have more mid gain option, but in practice it wasn't as flexible as the IV. Like there was always a specific personality baked in the sound. Just overall more compressed and warm, but lost the bite of the IV.

The Fillmore has incredible cleans, but couldn't be farther from a JCM800. The drive modes are way warmer and lack a lot of lows.

The various Rectos, fun amps, but the gain is too filtered which makes it feel slow compared to a JCM800.

Then came the Badlander... Now we're talking! That nice open high end, not very compressed, biting mid range (it uses the same values as a JCM800 or Superlead in the tone stack).

All 3 modes are similar to each other, they just take "that sound" further. Clean is probably the closest thing to a JCM800, except it doesn't thin out at lower gain. Crunch is more modded Marshall territory, basically just goes a bit farther. Crush introduces a bit more compression and more thickness, it's not a lot more gain, it's just enough. Similar to a TS into an 800.

Some say it lacks low end, or gain, but believe in a band context it has everything you need.

I like the flexibility given by having all 3 modes on both channels. I usually set Ch 1 on clean with just enough gain to get it to bite a little. Then Ch 2 on Crunch for that classic Marshall sound, which I boost with a Klone fore more drive. In other bands where clean doesn't matter I'll leave Ch 1 on crunch and use my guitar's volume to clean up like I did with the 800, and Ch 2 on crush for easy high gain sound

 

[Jeffw5555]

My original amp I have had since the mid 70's is a 1971 50 watt JMP Marshall. I mostly play it with humbucker Gibsons with Dimarzio's direct, or thru a Tubescreamer or other booster pedal for guitars with lower output pickups. Here is a list of my current amps:

- 1971 Marshall JMP 50
- Mesa Mark IV B
- Mesa Mark V 90
- Mesa JP2C
- Diezel VH4

Out of the "other than Marshall amps" on this list, the amps that comes closest to a Marshall sound is the Diezel on Channel 2. The Diezel on Channel 3 sounds like a blend of Marshall and Mesa, doesn't exactly sound like either, but closer to Mesa. The Diezel is a much simpler amps than the Mesas, so you cannot spend much time tweaking, it is what it is. The cleans on Channel 1 are nice too. Very Fenderish. Even though the Mark V is the Swiss Army knife of amps, I find the Diezel much simpler to cover a range of sounds. (channel 4 on the Diezel it too muddy for me)

 

[SonVolt]

Looks like Mark VII it is then. I'll make sure to try one out if I can.

Marks are great if you want great clean tones and that Metallica-style tight dry gain. It doesn't sound or feel anything like an 800 though. It won't cut through a live band mix near as well because of the compression.

 

[CoG]

Vintage Lo on the RA100 at 80s loud (the Multi-Soak changes it too much) is a real Marshall vibe to play. It feels and acts like something between a 50W plexi and an 800, there's a lot more gain there than you think but it's very responsive. It's stiff but it's not fighting you. Your picking really starts to matter and those knobs by your pick hand suddenly turn useful. But it's a lot smoother-sounding than a Marshall.

What I don't know is if the TC kept this sound, from what bandit2013 says sounds like no. Too bad.

Furthest thing from an 800 is Vintage Hi on the Tremoverb, unboosted = cheating at guitar. The amp makes blues face along with you.