Fender clean

[teletdf]

So I have the 5:50 and generally like it a lot, especially for mid/hi-gain work. Works nicely with my pedal rig. But for some reason I can't find a nice Fender clean, if one exists on this amp. For me, the clean sound is too forward and compressed/thick. I played through a '66 Super Reverb the other day...and there was the clean I was after. Heavenly. Even the Mustang III (ye gods!) had good snappy cleans compared to the Express. So, I've relapsed into amp GAS but hate to swap out a nice rig if there is, in face, a lively, responsive, transparent clean tone on the thing. I fiddled with the Electra-Dyne and it has potential, but I'd have to unload a ton of other gear to afford one, and I don;t want to take that chance. So...is there a good Fender clean in this amp?

 

[shytfayse]

I've never used the 5:50, so I can't really help you, but, you have to know that the Blackface Fenders of the 60's are the standard for clean tone which all other clean tones from other amps are compared to. You have set the bar high. I hope you have good luck figuring it out. - Pat.

 

[MrMarkIII]

Well, the Express will sound as good as the "66 Super Reev in only about 40 years! :lol:
Have you tried keeping the gain low, master high, the mids on zero, and stay away from the 5 watt setting?
Mesas have a lot more mids than blackfaces. Changing the Mesa Celestion for a Jensen C12K (like the reissue blackfaces) might help, too. The four tens in a Super also influence the tone as well.

 

[teletdf]

Mr. Mark III - haha - 40 years - I'll be dead then! Anyway, yeah, I've set the dials as you suggested and every other way I can think of - it thins out, but there's still no airy, transparent sound. The 4x10s and the large open-back cab of the Super may influence the sound - but maybe the speaker mod will help. Hm. Thanks for the suggestions!

 

[J.J]

I tried to get those Fender sounds for about a year. If they are there, I can't find them. I still like the Express and it has many great clean tones, but the compression, edge of breakup and reverb are all quite a bit different to a Fender.

In the end I had to get an Electra dyne :lol: I was planning to get a Deluxe reverb or super reverb to complement things, but am happy enough now. The ED still does not have quite as much sparkle as a deluxe reverb and the reverb is not quite as lush. The Fender also has Vibrato, nice but not needed for me.

A super reverb is a super bright amp in comparision to the Express.

 

[Newysurfer]

So I have the 5:50 and generally like it a lot, especially for mid/hi-gain work. Works nicely with my pedal rig. But for some reason I can't find a nice Fender clean, if one exists on this amp. For me, the clean sound is too forward and compressed/thick. I played through a '66 Super Reverb the other day...and there was the clean I was after. Heavenly. Even the Mustang III (ye gods!) had good snappy cleans compared to the Express. So, I've relapsed into amp GAS but hate to swap out a nice rig if there is, in face, a lively, responsive, transparent clean tone on the thing. I fiddled with the Electra-Dyne and it has potential, but I'd have to unload a ton of other gear to afford one, and I don;t want to take that chance. So...is there a good Fender clean in this amp?

Well each to their own.
To my ears 5:50 cleans & Lonestar Classic cleans are as close to most Fender cleans as you can find in a non Fender amp.
Very close imo except 5:50 & LSC cleans & reverb are better than most Fenders.

But if you're talking vintage 1960's Fender Twins & Super Reverbs well nothing sounds exactly like them.
Fender can't even make amps now that sound exactly like them.
Is it fair to expect any other amp to sound identical to those old vintage amps.
You can't even get the parts they used for those old amps. They just don't make em anymore.

Imo the the 5:50 and the Lonestar cleans both sound just as good though - just a little different.
But if all you want is the cleans from a 66 Super Reverb then you should buy a 66 SR cause nothing else will sound the same :mrgreen:

 

[Don]

To get cleans as close as possible to my Vibrolux Reverb I set the gain at around 9:00 and the mids bellow 11:00.

These amps don't really have a blackface Fender clean sound. They have they're own sound. A lot of that has to do with the speaker. Plugged into my VR's 2-10" Jensens, the sound is a lot closer.

I like the cleans from my VR and my Express 5:50 equally well, depending on my mood and the music that I'm playing. I like the Express' reverb more than the VR's (or my Super Reverb or Princeton Reverb). It's actually more lush!

OT, I wonder if the players saying that they find the Express' reverb to be less lush than a Fender are playing newer amps, built after Accutronics was sold and production moved overseas?

 

[teletdf]

Thanks everyone for the nice comments and suggestions. I agree that the Express has very nice clean tones (and the reverb is very nice). That, plus the amp's versatility and range of tones, makes it very hard to give up for an expensive one-trick-pony, or even a modeling amp. Only thing that will suffer is my amp GAS lol. I may try a speaker swap, or maybe find a nice 2x10 cab. Has anyone tried or heard of putting a 5:50 chassis into a 2x10 combo?

 

[Don]

Keep in mind that it wasn't the fact that I tried 10" speakers that gave the amp more of a Fender-like sound, it was because they were the original 45 year old Jensen C10Q speakers in the Vibrolux Reverb.

 

[J.J]

These amps don't really have a blackface Fender clean sound. They have they're own sound. A lot of that has to do with the speaker. Plugged into my VR's 2-10" Jensens, the sound is a lot closer.

OT, I wonder if the players saying that they find the Express' reverb to be less lush than a Fender are playing newer amps, built after Accutronics was sold and production moved overseas?

My Express is at least a few years old, serial number is 4xxx. I was comparing it side by side with the 65 DRRI and the ED. If the 5:50 has a different reverb tank to the 5:25 then that may go a long way to explaining this.

I wanted to, but didn't get the chance to try the ED through the DRRI speaker. I was betting that it would get even closer. The C90 does do a convincing job with the ED though.

 

[tonejam]

I had a 5:25 Express and have a Studio 22+. I ended up selling the Express but kept the Studio. One of the reasons was, I can get some "jangle" out of the Studio, which I could never quite find with the Express, despite it being a great amp.

 

[soundchaser59]

Have you tried keeping the gain low, master high, the mids on zero, and stay away from the 5 watt setting?

This! On the BURN channel. I got a really nice blackface tone from my burn channel this way. Turn the gain off and the master up to 3 o'clock, tone controls about 9 or 10 o'clock (I like the low tone the best), and I had a clean boost in the loop and 5751's in the preamp slots and a AU7 in the P.I. slot when I did it. I think at the time I had Gold Alnico in the amp, too.

Use the neck pickup, then ever so slowly turn the gain up as high as you can before any hint of distortion sets in. For me this was as soon as I could hear it, maybe 7 o'clock. Any higher and it distorts. Careful, cuz it will get really loud really quick!! :mrgreen:

But the tone was exactly like my 65 BF Champ, only a lot louder!

 

[mtodd6]

I pretty much always had Fenders until the recent 5:50 purchase -- the 4 Fenders I played through for any amount of time were a 50W Bassman head, a silver face Pro-reverb, a 57 Deluxe 22W 5E3, & a Supersonic, which is supposedly a Bassman/Vibrolux on the clean channel. Nothing I can do with 5:50 makes it sound like Fender. The way I would describe the Fenders is almost "loose" even "sloppy" and very, very dynamic. I find the 5:50 clean very tight, very compressed, especially at 5 watts (which is to be expected in class A mode). I thought the Supersonic, which comes with a celestion in 60W model would sound more Mesa-ish, but nope, it's a Fender and not a modern sounding amp at all. The Fender reverb is very soupy compared to the 5:50. Also, I find Fenders above 50W to be almost unusable. They seem incredibly louder than any similarly rated amp.

If I build another amp, it will probably be a Blackface deluxe reverb. That is the gold standard for low power clean, and it loves pedals & sounds nicely overdriven with some boost. I haven't played the 22W Supersonic, but supposedly it's a BF DR front end. The good thing about the Supersonics is you can pick them up cheap. I got the 60W for $600 in new shape.

 

[talltxguy]

When I read your post, something that came to mind was the tube rectifier.

Those Fenders had a rectifier tube, and I know the Expresses do NOT have a rectifier tube. I really think the rectifier tube makes a big difference - especially in reference to that loose, sloppy tone you mentioned. I just don't you're gonna get that with diodes.

If you're intent on keeping the Express, then you should look into amp techs that would install a sag switch, which simulates a tube rectifier but doesn't cost nearly as much to install. When I had my 295, I looked into this extensively before saying the hell with it and getting a Mesa with a true tube rectifier. Anyway, sag switches can be installed for less than $100. Installing a tube rectifier - if room exists - would run you at least $250 if not more. And as the techs I talked to mentioned with regard to the sag switch, it's still simulated tube rectifier, not an actual tube rectifier.

I know it's easy for us to say, "Hey dude, get another amp." But I really think that would be your best bet in this situation. I hated selling my 295 & Studio Pre; but I just had to have a tube rectifier. And now that I got one, I'm so glad I did.

I really think if you're looking to stay with Mesa that you should look into a Lone Star. You can get a nice deal on a used one if you keep your eyes open. Anyway, good luck on the tone search.

 

[mtodd6]

When I read your post, something that came to mind was the tube rectifier.

Those Fenders had a rectifier tube, and I know the Expresses do NOT have a rectifier tube. I really think the rectifier tube makes a big difference - especially in reference to that loose, sloppy tone you mentioned. I just don't you're gonna get that with diodes.

Good point, I forgot the 5:50 has a diode bridge. Since a tube rectifier will sag more, this leads to more compression. Some modern & even classic fenders use diode bridges, like the Deville. Some of the modern fenders have solid state reverb circuits, which I think even I could hear. The most powerful amp I owned was a pro-reverb 70W & it had a tube rectifier.

I never thought about truly fender-ish a fender sounds based on the rectifier circuit!

 

[Don]

Don't underestimate the affect of the speaker.

Years ago, following an amp tech's advice, I installed an EV Force 10 speaker in my 1966 Fender Princeton Reverb. The result was a tighter and louder amp and...

...all the blackface/silverface Fender sparkle, shimmer, transparency- whatever you want to call it, we completely gone! I couldn't yank that speaker out of that amp quickly enough!

I have played my Super Reverb and my Vibrolux Reverb with tube rectifiers, solid state rectifiers and Weber Copper Cap rectifiers (diodes with resistors to simulate sag, encased in a tube shaped housing) and, although there was a difference, it was more subtle than changing speakers and it wasn't really an old amp vs new amp or Fender vs Boogie kind of difference.


BTW, I played a new Supersonic 22 last weekend and it sounded like a Fender amp! I was not blown away by it enough to "need" one, though. My VR is better sounding. Also, it's not as nicely made (cosmetically- details like Tolex application, switches, etc...) as a Boogie!

It weighs about 10 puond less than my Express 5:50, though!

 

[CHATTERBOX]

So I have the 5:50 and generally like it a lot, especially for mid/hi-gain work. Works nicely with my pedal rig. But for some reason I can't find a nice Fender clean, if one exists on this amp. For me, the clean sound is too forward and compressed/thick. I played through a '66 Super Reverb the other day...and there was the clean I was after. Heavenly. Even the Mustang III (ye gods!) had good snappy cleans compared to the Express. So, I've relapsed into amp GAS but hate to swap out a nice rig if there is, in face, a lively, responsive, transparent clean tone on the thing. I fiddled with the Electra-Dyne and it has potential, but I'd have to unload a ton of other gear to afford one, and I don;t want to take that chance. So...is there a good Fender clean in this amp?

Don't know if this will help but when I had my Express 5/50, I used the 1st channel in Crunch mode with the gain dialed back instead of using the Clean setting. Made a huge difference when playing with my co-guitarist who uses primarily vintage Fender Bassmans and Deluxe Reverb amps.

 

[mtodd6]

I usually play my 5:50 in 5W A. Last night I experimented with 50W AB. I set the clean gain very low. In the effects loop I had moderate compression + tremelo + delay. With bridge pickup on strat, I got some very fender-ish sounds. The 50 AB makes the amp very loose. Sheeeee, I thought Duane Eddy was gonna jump outta the amp.

What about those Boss deluxe reverb & bassman modeling pedals? They have the reverb built in. I inherited the Boss power stack from another deal & while I would not recommend it over an analog OCD, it is an interesting way to get EL34 sounds from my Fender deluxe tweed.

As for burn, the 50W AB sounds a lot better to me than than 5W A. I'm still sure I don't need to buy any more pedals, ever.

 

[serolf]

I get a nice Fender-ish tone through the Blues channel. Gain set to half, treble at 7-8, split mode (humbuckers). Give that a try.

 

[JUS]

I played through an ancient twin reverb for ten years before getting my 5:25. There is no real way to emulate the sound of a 85 watt tube amp playing through two 12s. What I do to get the "jangly" sound is front load the clean channel with a Fulltone GT500 clean boost...and always use fresh, new strings. It really seems to wake up the jangle. Just remember the old (blackface) cleans were not totally clean.


PS. i always use 5w mode.