Express 5:50 EQ question

[MidWestBoogie]

Hi,
I have had a Express 5:50 for about 3 months now and I was wondering if anyone else has felt that there is a sharp high mid quality to it that seems to be impossible to get around no matter how much I tweak the endless combination of controls. This is a great amp and it is so close to being perfect for me that I was wondering if anyone has had this same problem and found a solution. I am not a thrash metal player. I play mostly R&B, Funk and Classic Rock ( 43 yrs.old ).

My Rig:
Les Paul Studio ( w/ Buzz Fieten and Duncan SH-4 in the bridge and SH-2 in the neck position)

Ernie Ball Volume
Keeley Cry Baby
Keeley Ratt
E. Harmonix Small Clone
MXR Carbon Copy

Thank You

 

[Don]

I keep the mid control down pretty low in the Clean mode (though I turn up the mid control in the Crunch and Burn modes). I also turn my guitar's volume controls down slightly when playing clean, especially with my Les Paul. This cuts down the upper mids plus it allows me a quick boost from the guitar's controls when I need a little more oomph to cut through.

Also, what sounds like too much mids when I'm practicing alone is just right with a full band.

 

[MidWestBoogie]

That is kinda what I have been doing. I work the volume and the tones slightly most of the night. I think also I really need to adjust the amp according to my ears more than what I am expecting a correct setting to look like. This amp is so colorful that the slightest tweek changes the whole shape of it. I am going to try putting a graphic EQ in the chain and see if I can't get what I am looking for that way.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Newysurfer]

Hi,
I have had a Express 5:50 for about 3 months now and I was wondering if anyone else has felt that there is a sharp high mid quality to it that seems to be impossible to get around no matter how much I tweak the endless combination of controls. This is a great amp and it is so close to being perfect for me that I was wondering if anyone has had this same problem and found a solution. I am not a thrash metal player. I play mostly R&B, Funk and Classic Rock ( 43 yrs.old ).

everyone's got different ears.
I just don't hear this sharp high mid thing and find the EQ and contour controls give heaps of variation in tone.
I've also tried 2 different tubes sets in it, plus use an MXR EQ pedal. The 5;50 is the most versatile amp i've ever played

 

[vbf]

The gentleman that sold me my 5:50 explained that the treble, mid, and bass knobs also effect volume. Here's what he recommended. With the treble, mid, and bass knobs all off, first set the bass to about 9:00. Then set the mid to about 11:00 and the treble at around 1:00 - 2:00 (the "sweet spot"). Adjust volume as needed and use presence to complete the sound. This works pretty well for me as a starting point.

 

[MidWestBoogie]

Well, I found what was causing the problem. My "true bypass" pedals are not so true bypass after all. After tinkering with every possible configuration I plugged straight into the amp with a monster cable and voila! It suddenly had all the character and definition I was missing. This a bummer because I paid good money for all those mods and now to get the tone I gotta sacrifice all my effects. Oh well. Thanks everyone for your input.

 

[MrMason]

You need a pedal switcher. I wanted something like this:http://www.voodoolab.com/switcher.htm, but for my particular needs I would also need the GCX and something to control it; which added to over $800 so I went a different route. I think in your case the pedal switcher by itself might be the way to go. Of course, it still won't help the sound with the pedals turned on, but it will make them true bypass.
Also, and I'm not completely sure about this, I think you might need two if you have pedals before the amp and in the loop. This hobby is a little expensive isn't it? :mrgreen:

 

[Newysurfer]

Well, I found what was causing the problem. My "true bypass" pedals are not so true bypass after all. After tinkering with every possible configuration I plugged straight into the amp with a monster cable and voila! It suddenly had all the character and definition I was missing. This a bummer because I paid good money for all those mods and now to get the tone I gotta sacrifice all my effects. Oh well. Thanks everyone for your input.

Hey Senor Boogie
what pedals have you got.
Can probably sought out your tone suck problems without needing a separate loop switcher.
I've got zero tone suck with 10 pedals plugged into my 5:50.

 

[Don]

Well, I found what was causing the problem. My "true bypass" pedals are not so true bypass after all. After tinkering with every possible configuration I plugged straight into the amp with a monster cable and voila! It suddenly had all the character and definition I was missing. This a bummer because I paid good money for all those mods and now to get the tone I gotta sacrifice all my effects. Oh well. Thanks everyone for your input.

I went through the same thing and found out that decent patch cables are at least as important as true bypass pedals! I'm not talking about expensive cable, just not crappy ones.

 

[MidWestBoogie]

Hi Newysurfer,

Here is my rig. All the pedals are in front of the amp.
My Rig:
Les Paul Studio ( w/ Buzz Fieten and Duncan SH-4 in the bridge and SH-2 in the neck position)
Ernie Ball Volume ( with a Korg DT-7 Tuner ran off the tuner jack)
Keeley Cry Baby
Keeley Ratt
E. Harmonix Small Clone
MXR Carbon Copy
everything is powered by a MXR Brick.

Could my delay and chorus be ran through the loop while I leave the rest in front of the amp? I also ran just the Keeley pedals one at a time with new monster cables and still had the same loss. And I plugged the two monster cables direct from the guitar to the amp one at a time and both worked perfectly with no loss.

This amp sounds fantastic when I go straight in but, I am a club musician and I play an average of three nights a week and several different styles so I really need to use effects to pull off different styles. Thanks everyone for your help. I hope with your help I can resolve this. I have checked out a Radial PB-1. Does anyone have experience with this pedal. But obviously if I can just rearrange the order of my pedals to solve this I would rather do that.

 

[MidWestBoogie]

Well, I ordered VoodooLab pedal switcher that should be here in a couple days. I think I will give the Ratt a rest for a while and use the Burn channel instead. That will free up some real estate on the pedal board and I would like to explore the Burn channel anyway. I will post the results when I get it all put together and once again thank you everyone for your input.

 

[vbf]

"That will free up some real estate on the pedal board and I would like to explore the Burn channel anyway."

Since owing the 5:50 I have shed many pedals in favor of the crunch and burn channel sounds. The only time I use a pedal (BOSS OD/distortion) is when I'm switching between crunchy and clean during a song and need the burn channel for the next tune we're playing. Otherwise I only use the Express for dirt. The more you use the burn channel the more you'll love it.

 

[MrMason]

...

Could my delay and chorus be ran through the loop while I leave the rest in front of the amp? I also ran just the Keeley pedals one at a time with new monster cables and still had the same loss. And I plugged the two monster cables direct from the guitar to the amp one at a time and both worked perfectly with no loss.
...

Yeah, most people prefer chorus and delay in the loop, especially on distorted tones.
Good luck with the pedal switcher, hope it works out for ya!

 

[Newysurfer]

Hi Newysurfer,

Here is my rig. All the pedals are in front of the amp.
My Rig:
Les Paul Studio ( w/ Buzz Fieten and Duncan SH-4 in the bridge and SH-2 in the neck position)
Ernie Ball Volume ( with a Korg DT-7 Tuner ran off the tuner jack)
Keeley Cry Baby
Keeley Ratt
E. Harmonix Small Clone
MXR Carbon Copy
everything is powered by a MXR Brick.

Could my delay and chorus be ran through the loop while I leave the rest in front of the amp? I also ran just the Keeley pedals one at a time with new monster cables and still had the same loss. And I plugged the two monster cables direct from the guitar to the amp one at a time and both worked perfectly with no loss.

This amp sounds fantastic when I go straight in but, I am a club musician and I play an average of three nights a week and several different styles so I really need to use effects to pull off different styles. Thanks everyone for your help. I hope with your help I can resolve this. I have checked out a Radial PB-1. Does anyone have experience with this pedal. But obviously if I can just rearrange the order of my pedals to solve this I would rather do that.

Hey MW Boogie
That Ernie Ball volume pedal is a well known tone sucker.
Unplug that baby & see if it's the cause.
I'd do the same with the EH pedal too. Some of them have issues.

I assume the Keeley mod's have TB but are you sure. You say they caused tone suck when you isolated them.
So now isolate each of those and find out which one is the culpret.

Do you have any crappy patch cables anywhere. Just one will stuff it up.
No need for expensive ones though. I just use Hoser and Hotlines.

Run your delay & chorus thru the loop. They sound better there anyway.
Finding the tone sucker is a process of elimination.

Let us know how you get on :mrgreen:

 

[fox5150]

Hi Newysurfer,

Here is my rig. All the pedals are in front of the amp.
My Rig:
Les Paul Studio ( w/ Buzz Fieten and Duncan SH-4 in the bridge and SH-2 in the neck position)
Ernie Ball Volume ( with a Korg DT-7 Tuner ran off the tuner jack)
Keeley Cry Baby
Keeley Ratt
E. Harmonix Small Clone
MXR Carbon Copy
everything is powered by a MXR Brick.

Could my delay and chorus be ran through the loop while I leave the rest in front of the amp? I also ran just the Keeley pedals one at a time with new monster cables and still had the same loss. And I plugged the two monster cables direct from the guitar to the amp one at a time and both worked perfectly with no loss.

This amp sounds fantastic when I go straight in but, I am a club musician and I play an average of three nights a week and several different styles so I really need to use effects to pull off different styles. Thanks everyone for your help. I hope with your help I can resolve this. I have checked out a Radial PB-1. Does anyone have experience with this pedal. But obviously if I can just rearrange the order of my pedals to solve this I would rather do that.

Hey MW Boogie
That Ernie Ball volume pedal is a well known tone sucker.
Unplug that baby & see if it's the cause.
I'd do the same with the EH pedal too. Some of them have issues.

I assume the Keeley mod's have TB but are you sure. You say they caused tone suck when you isolated them.
So now isolate each of those and find out which one is the culpret.

Do you have any crappy patch cables anywhere. Just one will stuff it up.
No need for expensive ones though. I just use Hoser and Hotlines.

Run your delay & chorus thru the loop. They sound better there anyway.
Finding the tone sucker is a process of elimination.

Let us know how you get on :mrgreen:

Are you running a tuner in the tuner out on the volume pedal? As per newysurfer's comments, this is a known problem with the design of this pedal. As soon as I unplugged my tuner (TU-2) from the tuner out, there was no problem with having the volume pedal in my signal path. It has something to do with the tuner out being connected in parallel with the output and splitting the signal between the two, thereby compromising the signal being transmitted from the output.

Worth having a look at.

Simon

 

[MidWestBoogie]

I ran from the guitar to the Keeley Ratt and then into the amp and it had signal loss when the Ratt was not engaged. Then I did the Exact same thing with the Keeley Wah and had signal loss with the Wah not engaged. Both pedals are true bypassed. Then I took the two cables I used on the pedals and plugged them in one at a time from the guitar straight to the amp and niether chord by itself had any signal loss. So the cables are not the problem. And the pedals that are true bypassed were sucking tone. With that said it does not matter if the tuner, EH, MXR or volume pedal were sucking tone because the two pedals that are true bypassed(the Ratt and the Wah), were sucking tone!

I could see how the Dunlop Volume pedal would suck tone if the tuner was ran off the tuner jack on the volume pedal. And yes I was doing that. But the Keeley pedals had no reason to suck tone.

My VoodooLab 4 input pedal switcher will be here tommorrow and I plan to run the setup like this:

VL input 1- tuner (input only so I can cut the entire path when engaged)
VL input 2- Wah
VL input 3- EH Small Clone Chorus
VL input 4- MXR Carbon Copy

Then I will use the footswitch that came with the Amp to switch between the Clean and Burn channel.
I might add the Volume pedal on the Insert plug on the VoodooLab once I am sure my tone sucking problems are solved.

I will also experiment with running the Chorus and Delay through the FX loop on the back of the amp but the problem I see with that is 1. These pedals are not true bypassed and 2. I would need to run some long cables from the back of the amp to the pedals on the floor in front of me. The extra length of the cables would cause some loss.

If this does not work I will be having a Bon Fire at my house with the whole rig being used for the fuel.......lol

 

[Newysurfer]

I ran from the guitar to the Keeley Ratt and then into the amp and it had signal loss when the Ratt was not engaged. Then I did the Exact same thing with the Keeley Wah and had signal loss with the Wah not engaged. Both pedals are true bypassed. Then I took the two cables I used on the pedals and plugged them in one at a time from the guitar straight to the amp and niether chord by itself had any signal loss. So the cables are not the problem. And the pedals that are true bypassed were sucking tone. With that said it does not matter if the tuner, EH, MXR or volume pedal were sucking tone because the two pedals that are true bypassed(the Ratt and the Wah), were sucking tone!

I could see how the Dunlop Volume pedal would suck tone if the tuner was ran off the tuner jack on the volume pedal. And yes I was doing that. But the Keeley pedals had no reason to suck tone.

My VoodooLab 4 input pedal switcher will be here tommorrow and I plan to run the setup like this:

VL input 1- tuner (input only so I can cut the entire path when engaged)
VL input 2- Wah
VL input 3- EH Small Clone Chorus
VL input 4- MXR Carbon Copy

Then I will use the footswitch that came with the Amp to switch between the Clean and Burn channel.
I might add the Volume pedal on the Insert plug on the VoodooLab once I am sure my tone sucking problems are solved.

I will also experiment with running the Chorus and Delay through the FX loop on the back of the amp but the problem I see with that is 1. These pedals are not true bypassed and 2. I would need to run some long cables from the back of the amp to the pedals on the floor in front of me. The extra length of the cables would cause some loss.

If this does not work I will be having a Bon Fire at my house with the whole rig being used for the fuel.......lol

A few thoughts MW Boogie.
First - I'm surprised those keeley pedals were the problem. What it means is that these 2 pedals are not really TB. Must have been overlooked somehow and they still have the original poor quality buffers in them.

2nd - as long as your cables are not cheap one's they'll be fine. And you don't have anywhere near enuf length in the total cabling for it to cause signal loss - assuming your cables are standard 10ft one's. If you have 20ft cables though that's another matter

3rd - pedals with good quality buffers in them do not suck tone or volume and real TB pedals certainly do not.

4th - the conventional wisdom on avoiding tone suck is to place good bufferred pedals first and last in the chain. In between mix TB and good bufferred one's.

Check out my board - Guitar to the right plugged into the wah - amp to left. The bottom row pedals are all up front and the top row is all in the loop. Only half of them are TB. The rest are good quality bufferred. I have zero tone suck.

 

[MrMason]

I will also experiment with running the Chorus and Delay through the FX loop on the back of the amp but the problem I see with that is 1. These pedals are not true bypassed and 2. I would need to run some long cables from the back of the amp to the pedals on the floor in front of me. The extra length of the cables would cause some loss.

Most of the amp's character takes place before the power section, so you won't really lose any tone with effects being run in the loop, mainly just volume loss if anything; and you can compensate by turning up the volume.

 

[MidWestBoogie]

Well, mission acomplished. I got the VoodooLab up and running and I have no tone loss.....woohoo!!!

I left out the Ratt and the Volume pedal. I also got better (and shorter :0 ) chords. I got gigs tommorrow, Friday and Saturday so I will be doing more experimenting after the weekends over. I wanna try running the delay and the chorus through the loop.

Thanks everybody for your input.