Express 5:25 Next Mod Opinions

[Remmie]

I picked up a used 5:25 Express 10” several months ago from GC.
Terrific amp IMO and my first MESA.
Made the decision after trying several other “M” amps and getting tired of the rack rig I was using; an ADA MP1 with rackmount midi controlled processors and 2 pedals. Way too many cables on the floor back and forth.

I was playing this through a MESA slant front 2 X 12 cabinet loaded with EVM12L’s.
No! You can’t have them! Especially after what I read from Soundchaser.
After fooling with the Express a bit I noticed that the bass was flubby at higher volumes and starting looking on the net for solutions, where I found you guys. Thanks for sharing your experience!
Pappy’s report on the C10 Gold Alnico inspired me to get one and it’s great. Chime is incredible!!!
Flubbiness is gone but still sounds a little thin.

Plugging in the 2 X 12 cabinet helps a ton ( I split the speakers into 2 ea @ 8 ohms a while back and it seems OK into the 4 ohm jacks.
I also went the floor pedal route and did the Allums mod on the CS-3 and the Blues Driver.
The clean channel is great Gain = 10 / T = 9 / M = 9 / B = 1 C = 12
I can do about anything with the EQ and it sounds good.
Blues channel is where I’m having some trouble with the thin sound ; best I can get so far is Gain = 9 / T = 9:30 / M = 9:30 / B = 2 C = 1.
Using a 1990 PRS Classic and a 1976 Les Paul.

I was hoping you might share your opinions on what you might try next to thicken up the Blues channel without disturbing the clean.
I can live with it if I have to but you know how we are!!!!!

 

[J.J]

For the Blues channel, you just have to use more gain. It really starts to thicken up after 12:00. Also, having the Contour at 1:00 will make it sound thin. I'd try 9:00 on the contour, you will have less, but tighter bass and may need to ajust the bass to taste. If you want to keep the contour high, you can try cranking up the mids.

 

[Don]

As J.J suggested, the gain control really fattens the sound of the amp. I find that it fattens it up quite a bit before introducing a lot of gain.

I've got the gain on channel 1 (Clean mode) at 1:00 and and channel 2 (Blues mode) at about 2:00.

At these settings the clean mode is still mostly clean with a bit of vintage amp sounding coloring and the blues mode sounds a lot like a cranked vintage type of amp. Neither channel is producing a ton of gain.

I play blues, r&b, classic rock... with a Carvin DC150, Les Paul, ES135 and a Telecaster with these settings.

 

[Remmie]

Thanks for the responses!

Bumping the gains on both channels helped.
Re-adjusted the EQ and Contour, here’s the new settings FYI.

Clean channel is still great: Gain = 11 / T = 10:30 / M = 10 / B = 1 / C = 5

Blues channel is better with these settings: Gain = 12:30 / T = 8:30 / M = 9 / B = 3 / C = 3:30

If I set the gain any higher than this, it puts too much distortion in for my tastes.
I try to keep the treble low to allow more response from the bass and mids per the manual.
The G-10 really helped with keeping the treble settings low in addition to getting rid of the flubby bass.

I guess I’m really a fanatic about clean sounds.
With a little compression and delay I get a fairly decent pedal steel sound out of either channel which is useful for a few things.

It’s still a little thin on the blues channel and I would prefer a little less distortion if I can get it.
Any suggestions on what might help me accomplish this?
________________
Express 5:25 1x10 w/ Celestion G-10 Gold Alnico
Mesa 2 X 12 w/ EVM12L

 

[J.J]

Are you using the 5 watt mode ? 5 watt mode sounds a lot thinner than 25 watt.

Sounds like you need to get a 12at7 or 5751 in V2. that will reduce the gain of the first gain stage and help prevent overdrive in the pre amp. That will in turn let you run more gain to produce a thicker sound. You could also put one of those tubes in V1 to reduce gain further if need be.

You can end up chassing your tail with the tone settings. I'd still recommend turning the contour down as it really scoops the tone, dropping the mids which is the opposite of a thick tone.

 

[Don]

I don't typically use the contour at all. I set the mids on the clean mode to about 11:00 for a kind of a blackface Fender clean sound and the mids on the blues mode to about 1:30 for more of an old Marshall, British blues type of sound.

 

[Remmie]

I agree that the 5 watt mode sounds thinner than the 25 watt. So I use the 25 watt mode and keep the master down when I’m practicing.
Yes, I have been chasing my tail quite a bit with the tone settings so when I get something with some potential, I take a picture of the amp settings. I do get away from it after a change and come back later being a victim of the “ear fatigue syndrome”.

With the stock eminence speaker, I didn’t seem to need much contour, but like Pappy said, “it was like taking a blanket off the amp” when the G-10 Gold went in.
When I first fired the amp up after the new speaker went in and played through it, I thought at first I made a huge mistake. But I remembered that there is a break in period for new speakers and after a couple of hours, the new tones really showed up.
There was still a very nasal sounding quality in all modes that is greatly reduced by the higher contour settings.
It stands to reason that this is the result of the speaker dynamics.
I tried reducing the contour again, after reading your responses, and I still get the same unacceptable nasally sound.

The rest of the band loved the sound of the blues channel after the changes you recommended.
Good for the classic rock songs, so I know I’m getting very close to what I want.

My goal for this amp is to be able to grab just the amp, without any effects, and go jam and sound good but also to be able to plug in the extension cab and effects with only a few tweaks on the eq.

Members in other posts also reported good results from lowering the preamp gain stages using different tubes so it looks like the direction I’ll go in for the next mod.
Thank you for the recommendation.

I think this has been said before, but it would have been nice if Mesa would have put the Crunch mode voicing on the other channel IMHO.
________________
Express 5:25 1x10 w/ Celestion G-10 Gold Alnico
Mesa 2 X 12 w/ EVM12L

 

[J.J]

What I think Mesa should have done is to make the modes assignable to the channel, so you could choose any mode for ch1 and then one of the other remaining modes for ch2. Some guys would probably even like to have ch1 crunch and ch2 crunch, but with different settings.

That nasal issue seems to be an Express 5:25 thing. I hear it with both the V30 and C90 speakers. It appears to be in the upper mid range where the mid control can not quite deal with it and the trebble is dealing with the higher range and can not get it either. I would guess it is around 800Hz. The contour does seem to help, but takes out to much mid range. If you try and put it back with the mid control things get muddy fast and so on...

With the lower gain tubes, I am hoping the touch sensitivery will improve. Compared to the Electra dyne the Express feels well compressed and does not have the dynamics in any of the drive modes. Blues is most dynamic, but the overdrive still comes in fast and hard with a Les Paul.

 

[Remmie]

Here's where I'm at with the tubes.

I put a GT 12AY7 in V2 and it really helped a lot.
I have some adjustment now on the blues channel that I didn't have before the change and it didn't seem to bother the clean channel much.
I can push the gains on both channels up to about 2:00 with out too much distortion coming in.

I tried some 5751's in V1 & V2 but the tubes were so microphonic that they weren't usable.

I have also been following the blogs on the SPAX7A tubes from mesa and I'm waiting for an order from them.

They have already been shipped within 24 hours after ordering and due to arrive next week via UPS.

Then we will see....

Thanks for the opinions.

 

[FXR]

Here's where I'm at with the tubes.

I put a GT 12AY7 in V2 and it really helped a lot.
I have some adjustment now on the blues channel that I didn't have before the change and it didn't seem to bother the clean channel much.
I can push the gains on both channels up to about 2:00 with out too much distortion coming in.

I tried some 5751's in V1 & V2 but the tubes were so microphonic that they weren't usable.

I have also been following the blogs on the SPAX7A tubes from mesa and I'm waiting for an order from them.

They have already been shipped within 24 hours after ordering and due to arrive next week via UPS.

Then we will see....

Thanks for the opinions.

I too tried the 5751, which I originally got for the reverb, in v1 and v2 with the same result, too microphonic. I'm not inclined to try 12at7 tubes due to the potential to draw up to 10 times the current of a 12ax7 and the transconductance mismatch. I have not looked at the 12AY. But I see a lot of them being "tested". Just thought I share the 5751 experience, though I got into a speech.

 

[Remmie]

I stayed away from the 12AT7's for the same reason you did.
I found an informative link about tubes, the author is referring to Fender amps but he goes into great detail about tube properties.
http://billmaudio.com/wp/?page_id=131

Rehearsed with the band this evening and the amp performed very well without the extra cabinet.
Very good tones on humbuckers and single coils.
I was even able to add a little more mid to the amp without the tone becoming too "nasally".

If I didn't do another thing, this will work fine for me but I need some extra tubes anyway and there is that reverb that could use a touch....

Also replaced the CS-3 with a Barber Tone Press. Good move for me. Getting more dynamics.

Express 5:25 1x10 w/ Celestion G-10 Gold Alnico
Mesa 2 X 12 w/ EVM12L
PRS Special, Gibson Les Paul Standard

 

[EtherealWidow]

Alright alright. What's all this poppycock about not putting a 12AT7 in the preamp? I read the link that was posted, but I'm afraid it still hasn't convinced me not to do it. I'm planning on buying a bunch of JAN Philips 12AT7's and an RFT 12AT7. Do you have any idea how unaffordable the full 12AX7's are?! What's the worst that could happen by putting a 12AT7 in the preamp? Does the Express have a cathode follower I should be concerned about?

 

[FXR]

I talked to Mesa about the Express 5:25 and was told there are no cathode followers.

As for why you should not use a 12AT7 in theory and whether that would be a problem in practical use on a Mesa Express 5:25, I don't know. I've seen a few posts on the net point out the differences in transconductance and possible current draw, up to 10 times more current, and verifying that using data sheets convinced me not to do it. I see lots of people "test" them though. YMMV

Anyone know where the bias resistor is or have a Mesa Express 5:25 schematic?

 

[Remmie]

It’s been a couple of weeks since my Mesa SPAX7A tubes arrived.

After evaluating the changes these past several weeks, I am very pleased with the results and I want to share the details with everyone.

I ended up replacing V1 thru V4 with the SPAX7A tubes.
The 12AY7 found a home in V5.

I tried the 12AY7 in V1 and V2 and found the Mesa tubes better to my tastes.
I tried numerous Gain, EQ and Contour settings and here’s what works for me.

Clean channel old setting: Gain = 11 / T = 10:30 / M = 10 / B = 1 / C = 5
Clean Channel New Settings: Gain = 11:30 / T = 12:30 / M = 11 / B = 1 / C = 2

Blues channel old setting: Gain = 12:30 / T = 8:30 / M = 9 / B = 3 / C = 3:30
Blues Channel New Settings: Gain = 1 / T = 10 / M = 9.5 / B = 2 / C = 1

There is plenty of adjustment in the Blues Channel now and I can almost duplicate the clean settings perfectly. The difference is hardly noticeable. So later on if I want to use the Crunch mode I’ll be able to do it. I also found the Burn mode sounds pretty good too. I probably won’t use it much because of the kind of music I play, but it’s nice to know it’s there.

I have also been recording some songs with the band and for the clean channel I came right out of the effects send into the recorder. For the blues channel I used an SM57 about a foot away on the rim of the speaker to give it a different sound. The results are impressive.

I also tried the 2 X 12 cabinet with the new tubes and only a slight change in the EQ was needed. Mainly reducing the bass a little.

The 1 X 10 sounds just fine miked through the PA with the SM57 so I might just use the extension cabinet for outside work where the back line needs to be a little hotter.

So my recipe is Celestion Gold G-10 Alnico plus Mesa SPAX7A tubes.
I think the characteristics of the Celestion Gold allow me to use a hotter bass setting without any flabbiness and the combination of the speaker and the new tubes allowed me to eliminate the nasally sound.

I wouldn’t think of trading this amp in for a 1 X 12 or anything else for that matter.

Hope this helps and thanks for everyone who has helped me to get where I am!