Enough wattage for most gigs?

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Skyze

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Im curious, What do you feel is enough wattage to be usable for MOST gigs? (ie until you are playing stadiums/5000+ people shows)

I have a 100w (tube) amp right now, but I am considering maybe going with a DC-5, and the drop to 50w's kinda concerns me that it won't be loud enough for many shows..

I am aware that most venues will mic me up, so you could technically get away with ~20w, but Headroom is quite important to me, esp on clean channels. I love that feeling of soaring cleans that never seem to end.
 
how? Im saying I like 100watters, but if I chose to get a medium sized mesa thats under like $1k, Im stuck with only 50 watters (DC5, .50 caliber)

Will 50 be enough? Anyone play BIG shows (ie non stadium, but ~1000-5000 people) with 50 watt amps?
 
I've owned 50W Mesa Boogie's (Ace and Electra Dyne) and 50W Marshalls. I can't say I ever turned either one of them up past 11:00 in a live situation either outdoors or indoors. Usually I run master volume/output around 10:00 - they are loud. The Electra Dyne seemed even louder on the lower watt setting than those two. I can't imagine those amps between noon and 3:00. The 15W Vox I own however is not quite loud enough for live gigs. It would be loud enough mic'd, but I can't imagine much headroom leftover.
 
The difference between 50 watts and 100 watts is something like 6db. It isn't half the perceived volume, like you assume. I believe that power and volume are logarithmic in a 10:1 ratio. In other words, a 100 watt amp will sound twice as loud as a 10 watt amp, all things being equal. There is only a mild to moderate volume difference between 50 and 100 watts, assuming all else is equal. On that note, a more efficient speaker will produce more perceived volume than a less efficient speaker. So, a very efficient 50 watt amp into a very efficient speaker could sound as loud as or louder than an inefficient 100 watt amp into an inefficient speaker.

that said, I have been playinve live for 30 years in all kinds of venues. I hav owned and played darn near every type of Mesa amp, mostly 60 and 100 watt models. I have never run out of clean headroom or volume. In fact, usually I have to attenuate my amp or use Tweed settings to keep the volume manageable. A 50 watt DC-5 will be plenty of clean power for any gig, probably even unmic'd. i would be shocked if you needed more than that for any indoor gig, and even some outdoor gigs, where you would be mic'd anyway.
 
+1.

I have a pignose G60VR w/1 12" eminence Legend that is loud enough for anything. I was once asked to turn down by the drummer at an outdoor gig!

ty
 
Like babow2 said, there is a very small difference between a 50watt amp and a 100watt amp when it comes to volume. There are lots of people that play stadiums with small amps. Think about all the famous people who use Vox AC30's. Zakk Wylde and Yngwie Malmsteen use 50watt Marshalls.


I wouldn't worry about wattage at all. Since you are concerned more with clean headroom a 100watt amp is best. If you said you were trying to get to the sweet spot of the amp at a lower volume then I would say get a lower wattage amp.
 
yes, i've played large venues.

the problem with a 50 watter, versus 100, is as you say, 'CLEAN headroom'


i have a 60w markIIb, and most of the time, it's perfect.

but on the really big stages, where sound gets swallowed up, 60 watts was not enough.

you can drive the master up to about 5 on my amp, and after that, all you get is transformer saturation.

which sounds GREAT, but it makes the cleans dirty




hence, the 100 watters are better for that type of application where you want really clean tones, but loud.

so, you just use your power switch, or pull a couple of tubes out for when you don't need that much wattage, but you're playing a smaller gig.
best of both.
 
I agree the main diff. between a 100 and 50w is that the latter will give you more Power tube saturation which will require you to turn your guitars volume down when you swtch to your clean channel if you crank the master......a 25w amp will be percieved as being half vol. to a 100watter in your case i'd stick with the 100 watter because a 50 w amp will sound JUST AS loud.
 
I used my F30 and a Avatar 2x12 at a very loud outdoor gig and it did fine until the end of the night when gorilla drummer got carried away with one of our funky tunes. I got a little fuzzy on the clean channel.
I also think it has a lot on how you EQ your amp, if your amp is off the floor and pointed at you, ext. One gig I had my mighty Marshall blown off the stage by a Peavy Classic 30 on a road case. Don't go by watts, go by tone.
 
50 watts is plenty. You can always mic it. I recommend that anyway. You sit in the mix better and it sounds more balanced. I've seen guys with 20 watt amps mic them and sound enormous through a PA. They actually sound better sometimes because they can actually turn their amps up and run them the way that they were meant be run. Do that in most clubs with a 100 watter and it will probably be the last time you play there. I find club owners to be way less db tolerant now than they were back in the day.
 
Skyze said:
how? Im saying I like 100watters, but if I chose to get a medium sized mesa thats under like $1k, Im stuck with only 50 watters (DC5, .50 caliber)

Will 50 be enough? Anyone play BIG shows (ie non stadium, but ~1000-5000 people) with 50 watt amps?

Moral of the story: If you are worried about headroom, get a Roadster or Road King. You can set up all your gain tones with 50watts and your clean with 100watts. The only problem here is that this costs a LOT of money new.

There is a cheaper alternative, something similar to what I run.
If it means anything to you, I'll describe my setup briefly. (You should definitely email MESA to double check, but I'm sure you can do the same thing with a DC100 as well)

I got a two channel Dual Rectifier used. I suggest you do the same. You should be able to find one for around $900 and it is easy to find a used marshall 4 x 12 to plug into. (I saw a marshall 4 x 12 on craigslist for $350 canadian last night) They really don't sound that bad. In fact, you can get some great tones from them.

OK, volume.
1) for loud outdoor gigs, I run my dual with all the power tubes in at 100watts. If volume still is a problem and I need headroom, I flip on the silicon diode rectifier which gives me ball busting power.

2) Mesas have awesome hardware in their amps. The trannies are super awesome which allows us to do this super cool thing: You can remove one rectifier tube (doesn't matter which one) and two power tubes from the amp to drop it down to 50watts. Now power tubes operate in tandem, so you have to configure your amp this way: Y X X Y where the inside power tubes are a pair and the outside ones are a pair. YOu can either have _ X X _ or Y _ _ Y. Any other configuration will damage your amp.

Now you have successfully pulled your tubes, it will change the impedance of your amp but that is ok. It is roughly half so you plug twice the resistance in to compensate. So, you run an 8 ohm cab from the 4 ohm output on your amp or a 16 ohm cab from the 8 ohm output on your amp and you should be set!

If 50 watts gets great tones for you at smaller venues, then great! If you need lower, you can do a further swap. It will cost extra money but it is worth it! I bought two THD Yellow Jackets and I run them with one rectifier tube and two EL-84 tubes plugged in. I leave the other power tubes empty. This drops the power of the amp down to between 15 and 20 watts, which results in a mini sized recto. The tonal effect is surprising with this change. Basically, the clean gets much warmer, kind of like a voxAC30. The crunch is awesome, but closer to EL-34s than 6L6s.

Ok, this is the deal. When you have a marshall 300watt cab or a mesa 240watt cab, 20 watts isn't enough power to get the speakers sufficiently working. As a result, the tone is anemic and doesn't thump at all. The solution is this: You need a cab that can handle between 40 - 100 watts.
-If you are simply set on a 4 x 12, A marshall 1960ax is a vintage looking 4 x 12 with 25watt g12m greenbacks. The cab can handle 100watts and as a result, it will sound much more ballsy.
-Some other (expensive) 4 x 12 options are Celestion Alnico blue speakers, which are only 15watts, super warm, and very efficient. This results in a 60watt 4 x 12 that will be probably the most money you ever spent on such a cab. It will also sound awesome with a 15 - 20 watt head.
-A cheaper option is to have a 2 x 12 or a 1 x 12 handy. If you use this sort of a configuration, it is far cheaper to augment the setup, especially used. An unloaded 1 x 12 thiele is a great option, since you can fill it with a v30 or G12T 75 for a modest power handling which makes for a ballsy setup. A recto 2 x 12 isn't too bad for medium power gigs, but the v30s are pretty tight speakers so you have to abuse them to get them to roar. I'd prefer two greenbacks for 50watts, but that is me. Generally, it is a good idea to have a cab that can handle a minimum of roughly twice the wattage that the amp in capable of producing.

If you go with this setup, you have two cabs: a small one for low power gigs, and a large one for loud gigs, like a 4 x 12 marshall or Mesa rectocab. YOu also have a box full of different tubes and are always yanking and replacing them depending on your immediate needs. If you are comfortable with this, you can get many applications out of the same gear.
 
I mic my amp. But if you're not doing that, it depends on the amp. I've heard 50 watters that are louder than higher wattages. Wattage is more a determinant of the volume the amp breaks up at.... a 50 will get nasty before a 100. depends on the size of the venue. if it's a club 20 watts is more than enough for me without mics. if in the 400-700 auditorium range, 50 is more than enough.
 
YellowJacket said:
There is a cheaper alternative, something similar to what I run.
If it means anything to you, I'll describe my setup briefly. (You should definitely email MESA to double check, but I'm sure you can do the same thing with a DC100 as well)

I got a two channel Dual Rectifier used. I suggest you do the same. You should be able to find one for around $900 and it is easy to find a used marshall 4 x 12 to plug into. (I saw a marshall 4 x 12 on craigslist for $350 canadian last night) They really don't sound that bad. In fact, you can get some great tones from them.

OK, volume.
1) for loud outdoor gigs, I run my dual with all the power tubes in at 100watts. If volume still is a problem and I need headroom, I flip on the silicon diode rectifier which gives me ball busting power.

2) Mesas have awesome hardware in their amps. The trannies are super awesome which allows us to do this super cool thing: You can remove one rectifier tube (doesn't matter which one) and two power tubes from the amp to drop it down to 50watts. Now power tubes operate in tandem, so you have to configure your amp this way: Y X X Y where the inside power tubes are a pair and the outside ones are a pair. YOu can either have _ X X _ or Y _ _ Y. Any other configuration will damage your amp...
[/quote]

The above is true. But there are far easier ways to do this. All of the older Simul-Marks, and most of the newer Mesa amps have multiple power level switches and "tweed" variacs controls to lower the output. For instance a Mark IV is better at low volume than most 30w amps I've owned. Flip a couple of switches, and it can hold it's own against a 100W Marshall going balls out.
 
Personally, if I had to have clean headroom at all times and I were playing to 1000 people, I would not look at anything less than 100w. I would add more speakers.

I would think you'd have better luck with a 50w amp if you add more high efficiency speakers. Gig 50w with a couple of 4x12 cabs loaded with EVM's and you will not have any problems at all with 50w.
 
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