Embarrassment for Line 6

[zebpedersen]

Probably completely the wrong forum, but it was so sweet to see everything go horribly wrong for Line 6 at Apple's WWDC'09 yesterday - their entire demonstration of remote controlling your Vetta and Variaxe on your iPhone went from bad to terrible. Reaffirmed my allegiance to the good old, uncomplicated, reliable Tube! I'm sure it's on YouTube for all to enjoy.

 

[Chris McKinley]

I don't take any pleasure in seeing a well-meaning innovative company experience a failure like that. Yeah, it can be a learning lesson, but there's no reason to take pleasure out of it. Line6 isn't a direct replacement for boutique, hand-built amps like Mesa and are therefore not really a threat to them. It's naive for critics to think so.

What they have done is to provide guitarists who can't yet afford a high-end tube amp the ability to sound a helluva lot better than they used to. Line6's products don't sound better than $2000 tube amps with professional dedicated effects, that's true. But they sound dramatically better than most of the crap in their price-point range against which they are actually competing.

If you were around and playing in the days before Line6 came out, and you only had $500 total to spend on equipment, I guarantee you didn't sound anywhere near that good unless you built or modified all your equipment yourself.

 

[screamingdaisy]

Good point.

My first 'rig' was a 75w Peavey 1x15 bass combo and a crappy distortion pedal that made the more expensive DS-1 sound like god.

Adjusted for inflation that Peavey rig cost me more money than the cheaper Line 6 units.

 

[zebpedersen]

If you were around and playing in the days before Line6 came out, and you only had $500 total to spend on equipment, I guarantee you didn't sound anywhere near that good unless you built or modified all your equipment yourself.

By the same token though, Line 6 make it way too easy for you to 'sound the part' with all their presets etc...

A friend of mine who started out on a Line 6 combo upgraded to a Mark IV because he loved the tones he heard, and then wondered why it was so darn difficult to get it to sound 'right' (where are the presets?).

I wouldn't say that they were being very 'innovative' with their products this time round, anyway. Bandwagon, anyone? Anyway given their 'prime time' position in the presentation I wasn't overly impressed by either the concept or the demonstration of the product. But hey, that's just me (apparently)

 

[Turumbar82]

Honestly, it's a ridiculous idea of controlling your equipment from your iphone. It's not like people were looking forward to having that capability to make their gigs easier. Especially since cellphones cause such a mess of noise in musical equipment.


The whole point of line 6 (and any preamp/multi-fx/amp modeler with presets) is to "sound the part". Presets equipment in guitar stuff have been around since before Line 6. Why? It's a inexpensive way to get lots of good tried and true sounds at a cheap price. When I first started playing back in '94 when I was in highschool there wasn't much for practicing quietly that had lots of good sounding effects and options with amp modeling. Now you can buy a pocket pod for around a hundred bucks and have lots of sounds that are good. Like Chris said, they don't compete with high end tube amps but they sound so much better than anything that was around even when I first started playing.

Believe it or not, Digital Modeling is the wave of the future. High end tube amps will always have their place but I can see modeling amps taking over the market in about 15 years.

 

[Chris McKinley]

zebpedersen,

RE: "By the same token though, Line 6 make it way too easy for you to 'sound the part' with all their presets etc... ". Your thinking is coming across as just kind of silly. "way too easy"? What? Is it supposed to be difficult to dial in reasonable emulations of your favorite sounds? Why? What purpose would that serve?

If you can't afford a high-end tube amp, it's not like purposefully making it difficult to dial in the sounds you want is going to scare you away from modellers into buying a Mesa instead. You're whole line of reasoning just comes across as a bit goofy.

 

[Jacko123]

I love companies like Line 6 and I'm sorry that things didn't work out for them. I own a Line 6 POD X3 which is a hoot to play with and a dream to record with.

I like that Line 6 and companies such as them provide affordable options to guitarists out there.

 

[Robusto]

I still wonder if one of these would not be pretty fun for practice/jamming/ just messing around.


http://line6.com/spiderjam/

 

[zebpedersen]

Meh, I just thought it was quite funny - in the context of 'incredible bleeding edge technology for the working musician to control your tone..from your iPhone!' doesn't work, whereas 60 year old tube-tech ain't fancy, but does the job (and doesn't crash). Not my take on why Line 6 are just the worst company in the world, as it has been received. Noone can argue reasonably that, overall, modeling tech is a very cost effective way to get tons of 'sound approximations' for not that much wedge.

I do, however, stand by the point that just relying on presets removes the important learning that happens when you try, try and try again to get a decent sound from any amp (be it a Boogie or otherwise). Eventually, you get good at it, and it sounds great, and it's a really important skill to have, I think, and by just relying on presets you simply don't learn it. And I think that's an equally reasonable point.

Simply a single comment not intended to be a blanket damning of the entire modeling amp 'thang'. Chris McKinley, don't take it personally, or as my 'be all and end all' statement on this very large market segment. (And I won't take it personally that you think I'm 'goofy' and 'silly' just because I perhaps didn't make clear that my point was merely a singular example of one particular situation in which case the modeling amp is at a disadvantage. )

 

[Turumbar82]

Since this is was an Apple event, is this Line 6's fault that the iPhone couldn't control their equipment.

I wouldn't say that if "Reaffirmed my allegiance to the good old, uncomplicated, reliable Tube" as it just goes to show you that if you want to control a guitar rig, buy a midi board and not an iPhone.

The idea of presets goes full circle. A person buys a tube amp and learns how to use it with fx and eventually goes to a midi set up or some sort of switching set up so they can have presets of their sounds so they don't have to dial in all the time when they are playing live.

Yeah tube amps don't crash like a computer. They just burn up, the tubes fry, or the fuses blows. No equipment is problem free even the good old, uncomplicated, "reliable" tube.

 

[msi]

I don't think that is any indication that newer technology is inferior to tube amps. If you stick to using a pod the same way you'd use a tube amp, i.e. standing in front of it twisting the knobs, it's just as bullet proof as any tube amp. Likewise Mesa has already ventured into that territory via the midi continuous controller capabilities of the triaxis. It would be simple to send midi commands from an Iphone or wireless device to a pc, then have the pc send the midi to the triaxis. What your getting is pleasure from comparing an apple to an orange by comparing remotely interacting with a music device to standing in front of it.

And besides that point the technology being presented hasn't been implemented in any of their products yet. It's like your 5th grade science fair where you built the baking soda volcano that everyone has done and got a passing grade. But the nerdy kid tried to build a solar powered race car and failed so you start laughing at him.

As for presets making it easy to sound great, the gear you use should help inspire you to play, not block you. If you're spending more time attempting to "dial in" your tone, than you are playing, you are wasting your time. I don't know about you but I play guitar to play guitar, not **** with an amp. Further more, every mesa manual comes with settings suggested in the manual. It's the same thing as providing presets in memory. And in both cases the presets are usually junk.

 

[msi]

(And I won't take it personally that you think I'm 'goofy' and 'silly' just because I perhaps didn't make clear that my point was merely a singular example of one particular situation in which case the modeling amp is at a disadvantage. )

Again I don't think that is accurate, because most tube amps doesn't even have the capability to be remotely controlled. If you interact with a pod the same way as you would a tube amp, in front of it twiddling the knobs, both work flawlessly. And both can give you **** tones and good tones.

 

[colemaneuclid]

What your getting is pleasure from comparing an apple to an orange by comparing remotely interacting with a music device to standing in front of it.

Wait I thought we were talking about apple and Line6?? :lol: just kidding. I actually owned a Line6 amp for about 3 days. I took it back and saved up for my DR. Although it was quite flexible I knew I wanted the real deal. Now that I have my rig-of-doom it's quite impossible to practice with in my apartment. Enter Line6 stage left. Gives you a decent sound without breaking the bank/getting another noise violation!

 

[thunda1216]

I'm sorry. I must be getting old. (50+) I can't quite grasp the concept of controlling your amp with your phone! Do I quit playing during a song to dial up my amp on the phone? Why not turn around and twist a knob? Why not look down at my pedalboard and stomp something? I play through a heartbreaker most of the time, but just for shits and giggles, I bought an xtLive. It's fun to diddle with, and there are great tones lurking in there. I simply don't know why I would need a telephone to use it...

Of course, they don't make many buggy whips anymore, either!

ty

 

[Anonymous]

Post removed.

 

[msi]

I did some more research into what was presented and it appears what they were attempting to show was a midi interface for the Iphone. Controlling the Vetta and Variax were just the means they chose to demonstrate it. I agree I don't see the point of controlling an amp from a device like the Iphone. But it could be of use to keyboardists, dj's, maybe drummers.

Finally like I said before the failure of the demonstration doesn't indicate tube amps are any better. Turning around to twist the knobs on my vetta works just as well as twisting the knobs on my rectifier. Furthermore, I actually do control my rectifier from midi via a g-major. And I use a PodXT with a floorboard to control the g-major currently.

 

[Octavarius]

Meh, I just thought it was quite funny - in the context of 'incredible bleeding edge technology for the working musician to control your tone..from your iPhone!' doesn't work, whereas 60 year old tube-tech ain't fancy, but does the job (and doesn't crash). Not my take on why Line 6 are just the worst company in the world, as it has been received. Noone can argue reasonably that, overall, modeling tech is a very cost effective way to get tons of 'sound approximations' for not that much wedge.

I do, however, stand by the point that just relying on presets removes the important learning that happens when you try, try and try again to get a decent sound from any amp (be it a Boogie or otherwise). Eventually, you get good at it, and it sounds great, and it's a really important skill to have, I think, and by just relying on presets you simply don't learn it. And I think that's an equally reasonable point.

Simply a single comment not intended to be a blanket damning of the entire modeling amp 'thang'. Chris McKinley, don't take it personally, or as my 'be all and end all' statement on this very large market segment. (And I won't take it personally that you think I'm 'goofy' and 'silly' just because I perhaps didn't make clear that my point was merely a singular example of one particular situation in which case the modeling amp is at a disadvantage. )

Well, maybe you should start taking it personally, because your reasoning here is just flat out stupid. How many professional guitarists do you know of that turn around and twist knobs everytime they need a new sound? Just like Turumbar82 mentioned in his post, after all MIDI control of guitar rigs isn't that uncommon, and this "preset thing" you keep referring to, has actually been around since the introduction of a two-channel amp. Never seen presets in a tube amp? Take a look at the TriAxis or further more, one of John Petrucci's guitar rigs!!

When regarding to factory presets, your argument doesn't really hold water there either. Almost every modeling device user that isn't a 12-13 who believe that Preset #132 "Master of Puppets" is exactly the tone it's supposed to emulate, tweaks the stock presets, if not making him or herself entirely new ones. I agree that there is an important learning process in how to make an amp sound good, but the digital modeling industry is certainly not at a disadvantage, nor any danger to the principles of "taking your tone into your own hands". Every preset in such a modeling device is tweakable, and they're even made so that they are similar to tweaking a real tube amp specifically so that the user can relate to how amp controls actually work. And just like with the suggested presets that come in almost every tube amps manual, no serious guitarist will ever stick to those. What they do in both cases is to give the user a glimpse of what the device/amp can do and therefore not returning it because of the users own inability to dial in or read the manual properly.

All in all you come off to me as a person who is really unexperienced with guitar rigs in general, and a tube snob who probably has one amp with one or two sounds that you stick to, not realizing that many (especially those doing lots of covers) need the flexibility of having very many sounds you can switch between with a single stomp, and simply cannot afford multi-tube amp rigs to cover all their tone needs. And this is where Line6 comes in, and I respect them for that. Granted, the modeling isn't good compared to the original, but it gives you tons of flexibility that you can't get anywhere else for that price. And it's flexibility this all is about, not relying on factory presets. Want something more high-end in this vein? Check out the Fractal Audio Axe-FX. :wink:

Another thing is that because of these flexibility needs many professional guitarists do chose modeling over real tube amps. Not because of the price, but because of the complexity and mobility difficulties that such large rigs pose in a real gigging situation. This doesn't really concern Line6 at all, but is definitely a strong argument against yours regarding the "presets thing". Take for instance Dweezil Zappa who's recently ditched his four- 12U rack multi-amp rig in favor of two small Axe-FX processors.

 

[derekjason]

the whole iphone controlling your amp seems a bit too much to me, ive owned the vetta II, and in band situations, it was terrible, i think its easy to get lost when you have 19 different factors leading to desired tone. ive heard bands make line 6's sound great, as for me, they just get washed out. dont get me wrong, as a bedroom amp they rock, but for band applications, one word comes to mind, shitpile.

 

[Dolebludger]

While I play through a Mesa, I would like to have an additional, smaller, less heavy amp that I could take to small jam sessions and the like. I have tried Line 6 and Peavy Vyper with the "presets", and have found that those presets don't really sound like the real thing. So, for the moment, I will "gut" myself hauling my Mesa 2X12 everywhere I play. But I do hope someday that those preset sound SS amps improve to the point that I can use one of them. Hell, I don't care about controlling it with an iPod or anything beyond the controls on the amp itself. I just want a decent sound out of a light weight portable amp! I've tried a bunch, and so far, no dice. So I actually wish Line 6 and their competitors luck on actually giving us "the sound" -- whether via iPod or any other method. If somebody finds such an amp, let me know by posting about it right here.

 

[MesaGod666]

If you were around and playing in the days before Line6 came out, and you only had $500 total to spend on equipment, I guarantee you didn't sound anywhere near that good unless you built or modified all your equipment yourself.

Wow dude...yes I would. Back in 2000, I picked up a Marshall Valvestate 2000 for $350. I was broke as ****, but that amp sounded fkn great with EMG-81's. I still have AND USE IT today. Not as colossal as my Mesa Rig, but **** good for the price, and it's comparable to the Line6 Spyder.


It was a Marshall Amp exactly like this one.