Dual Rectifier, 3 channels is driving me insane

[Inheritance]

Hi to everybody, folks i've been getting problems with my DR, to achieve a powerful metal tone, let me introduce you my rig

Guitar CHAIN:
ESP M-II (Bolt on) (with EMG 81 on bridge and EMG 85 on neck) (Floyd Rose original) (Tuned two steps down on C)
ISP Decimator Pedal
Maxon Overdrive od-808 (Settings = Gain:Off , Tone at the middle, Balance: Somewhere between 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock
Dual Rectifier; channel red, bold, diodes, presence 2 o'clock, bass 1 o'clock, middle 11 o'clock, treble 2 o'clock, gain between 12 and 1 o'clock, volume at 12 o'clock and Master Volume at 11 o'clock (pretty high)
Old and cheap 4x12 Randall cabinet it has celestions on it but not v30 <- yes i know, and i'm saving for buy a new cabinet as soon as possible

The problems i'm having:
- incredible feedback, the decimator can handle it but sometimes when i'm playing i can hear the feedback on the background.
of course the decimator is killing my sustain when i play muted chords
- can't handle a open distorted chord more than 3 seconds without feedback
- the sound is weak, i need more gain, but more gain = more feedback
- no bass


More info;
i have good cables and the ones of the pedals are short
stock tubes on DR (2 years approximately)
the strings are new
the 9v battery for the EMG is new too


Please, please any recommendation?, anything you can say it will help me a lot
Thank you dudes, and sorry for my bad english

Take Care

 

[fluff191]

First, I would say you have WAY too much highs dialed in. The amount of Presence you have dialed is ear splitting.

Secondly, I also use a Decimator pedal, but in order for it to work, you can NOT have it after your Tube Screamer. (You didn't mention where in the chain it is located). The Decimator is the first pedal my guitar goes into, that way even when I hit the boost, the gate isnt fighting the boosted signal, just the regular guitar signal. I can stand directly in front of my cab at band volume and stop playing and get no feedback whatsoever (I run Duncan Blackouts).

Lastly, get a better cab. I suspect half your problem is you are trying to EQ the crapiness out of your speakers, which is why you have no low end. 1:00 on the Bass is alot, so half your problems will disappear once you get a new cab/speakers.


Hope that helps.

 

[Inheritance]

Thanks for your reply Fluff191.
Yes i have the decimator pedal the first on my guitar chain and the tubescreamer before.
The amount of highs and presence is the only way of achieve a clear attack i've dialed the eq and presence in many ways and this seems the only way that i can play more relaxed and without abusing of downstrokes.
I need to try a better cab, i'm saving for it but a mesa recto cab its too expensive... any suggestion?

Thank you again.

 

[fluff191]

I need to try a better cab, i'm saving for it but a mesa recto cab its too expensive... any suggestion?

Thank you again.

Yes, actually I do.

If money is the issue, buy yourself 4 WGS (Warehouse Guitar Speakers) Veteran 30's. 4 will run you about $300.

When you remove your old speakers, seal all the joints of the cab from the inside with silicone and then install the new speakers. Dial in a big, fat clean tone and crank the amp up to break the speakers in.

All the speakers in the WGS line are fantastic and well worth the money.

 

[lailer75]

Secondly, I also use a Decimator pedal, but in order for it to work, you can NOT have it after your Tube Screamer.

hmm, i have my decimator last in my chain , guitar-tuner-boost-isp-amp, and it works great.

 

[espexp]

Is the DR new to you?
Have you owned it for some time and this is a new problem?
Unplug your guitar cable, if the amp is still making noise then it's a preamp tube most likely.

 

[mastora]

Also have a look at your guitar. Try pressing down on your pickups with your finger when it start to feedback. If it goes away or is less then you will have to pup some sort of foam or rubber insulator on the bottom of the pups making sure they are snug in the cavity. Make sure that the ground wire to your floyd is disconected, and (this is what happened to mine with Blackouts) push some rubber hose or foam in the springs of your floyd to stop them from vibrating. This did the trick on my guitar.
Gook Luck.

 

[Inheritance]

Thank you all for your replies.

Mastora; I will try the foam trick, maybe it helps a little, the EMG's aren't connected to ground, the installation guide was very specific to not connect it, maybe there's a cable soldered to the floyd rose (the old ground cable for my old seymour duncans, but i'm pretty sure that this cable is not connected to anything, can be this a problem?

Espexp; the problem appears only with the guitar plugged, and i've purchased DR new 2 years ago. The thing that is new for me is Maxon od808, it seems that this pedal increase the feedback problem (and adds a lot of background noise)

Any suggestion on how to manage volume? The relation of channel's volume and master volume.


Fluff191; today on the rehearsal room i tried a marshall 4x12" 1960, it helps a lot with bass and highs definition but all the problems still remains.

 

[mastora]

Mastora; I will try the foam trick, maybe it helps a little, the EMG's aren't connected to ground, the installation guide was very specific to not connect it, maybe there's a cable soldered to the floyd rose (the old ground cable for my old seymour duncans, but i'm pretty sure that this cable is not connected to anything, can be this a problem?

Make sure that any ground cables that are not attached to anything are taped off.
Let us know how it goes.

 

[YellowJacket]

Fluff191; today on the rehearsal room i tried a marshall 4x12" 1960, it helps a lot with bass and highs definition but all the problems still remains.

Marshall 1960a cabs have Celestion G12T-75 speakers which tend to have very gritty or scratchy highs and have a distinctively scooped character in the mids. V30s are a much more defined speaker with very crisp highs (actually high mids) which can quickly sound harsh depending on EQ and guitar.

I have a few comments and suggestions for you.

1) Consider what style you play and what tone you want. The Recto does certain things better than others. For instance, it is a loose amp by nature and tightening it up requires a bit of work. If you play really fast metal, you will either want a different amp or a cab that tracks REALLY fast. The Mills Acoustic cabs are very tight and quick, but they cost $$$$$s!!!

2) Listen to the clips in this thread: http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=50090
The audio example will show you how one speaker type (v30) can be coloured quite significantly by cab design. A lot of tone comes from the cab as well as the speakers and you should bear that in mind.

3) Listen to this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWK0sa7tlfI
This will give you an idea of how speakers shape tone.

4) Look into used cabs if $$$$s are a problem. I often see Mesa 4 x 12s for $600 - $700 and in great shape.

5) Consider the rest of your signal chain i.e. guitar, pickups, electronics. They all shape tone as well. I played a show where a guy was trying to get a biting metal tone (ozzie) out of a stock strat with single coil pups. It just did not work.

6) Like Fluff, I also recommend WGS speakers. We used them for a build project we did for my brother and the results were astounding. The Reaper 50watt is a fantastic model and I give it a high recommendation. It is less stiff and more crunchy than a v30. It also has more highs along with a very chunky and even response. Sounds like a chainsaw!

 

[UnderJollyRoger]

Any suggestion on how to manage volume? The relation of channel's volume and master volume.

Don't set the channel 2&3 volumes too high or you will have trouble getting a good clean sound. It's probably better to work with the Master volume and have the channel volumes low (except channel 1, which will be set higher by nature). Mesa explains this also in the manual, I think.

 

[espexp]

Why not just dial in a tone without the Maxon if that is what's causing the feedback issue.
Is there a reason you need it?
Also the presence at 2:00 seems really high for a recto.
Maybe you are trying to compensate for bad power tubes by driving the sh#t out of your preamp. When power tubes start to go you will find that you have to keep turning dials on the amp up a little bit every now and then until you realize that something is wrong.

 

[xxFIXXEDxx]

Try putting the Decimator in the loop, it's what I do and it works great for me. 8)

 

[plapnab]

Secondly, I also use a Decimator pedal, but in order for it to work, you can NOT have it after your Tube Screamer.

hmm, i have my decimator last in my chain , guitar-tuner-boost-isp-amp, and it works great.

Mine has always been last in the chain. Seems to work for me as well.

 

[fluff191]

Mine has always been last in the chain. Seems to work for me as well.

Different strokes for different folks I suppose.

 

[Dave G.]

Im not trying to sound bad here or anything....but how close are you standing to the rig when you get the feedback? With the volume and treble and presence controls that high the magnets in the pickups may be causing feedback if your standing too close to it. If you need to be close to it for space restrictions try the rig without the OD pedal and see if that helps. If not try a few different placements of the ISP.

I used to have problems with feedback a while back and i bought a MXR smart gate.....imo its the best noise gate out there. Really simple to use and i dont find it sucking any tone. I use it last in my chain before the amp but after my OD pedals and it gets rid of ALL feedback and thats with the knob only turned to 1 oclock on it.

 

[UnderJollyRoger]

Another thing, I don't know the maxon overdrive, but running the gain at 12:00 - 1:00 AND boosting the amp with an overdrive at huge volumes with high treble and presence settings seems a little bit dangerous, so to say. Test it without the overdrive and see wat happens ...

 

[Inheritance]

Thanks you all again for your replies, i feel more relaxed after a few days fighting against the feedback.

YellowJacket and Fluff191; Thanks for your Cab recommendations, i thinks that i'm going for a used Recto cab, maybe a 2x12" (for transportation and weight)

Mastora; you were right dude, i tried to push the pickup with my finger and the feedback decreases a lot (more on the bridge pickup than on the neck). Any suggestion on the foam procedure (pickups and springs)

UnderJollyRoger; i tried to reset my volumes and push the master volume louder and definitively works a lot better.

Espexp; I love how it sound with Maxon on, all except the feedback of course, but it tightens a lot the sound. Do you think that on 2 years is a good idea planning to change the tubes? (This question definitively needs another search on the forum for recommendations and impressions of the different tubes and bias mods.

xxFIXXEDxx; I've tried the first day with de ISP but seems that i don't know how to manage the send/return levels for a optimal sound (And i have a Boss digital delay on the loop too.

Dave G; The rehearsal room is 4x3 meters and the drummer take us half of the space, maybe i play at 1-1,5 meters from the amp.


Thank you all for you time.

 

[YellowJacket]

YellowJacket and Fluff191; Thanks for your Cab recommendations, i thinks that i'm going for a used Recto cab, maybe a 2x12" (for transportation and weight)

My friend plays a 3 Channel Dual through a Recto 2 x 12. It definitely does a great metal tone! He plays a Jackson with a Dimebag Daryl Sig Seymour Duncan Pup in the bridge. As I recall, on channel 3 for rhythm, he zeros out the treble, maxes the mids (for tightness) and adds gain / presence / bass to taste. The settings are very unconventional but somehow they work. He has the best tone in his band. Oh, he also doesn't boost his rig.

I still say to have a look at the Mills Mach212B. For a BIG modern sounding 2 x 12, nothing sounds like that. It is tighter, clearer, takes loads of gain, has a huge low end, and seriously thinks it is a 4 x 12. By comparison, the Mesa Recto 2 x 12 is more mid focused. I built a copy of it with my Father in Law this summer and I have some build plans kicking around somewhere. I'd just have to get them scanned.

Oh, maybe try a v30 / c90 speaker combination. It is a more even tone and really helps out a lot with the lead sounds. Also, running a G12k 100 with a v30 would give you a more gritty sound. This is another option.

 

[mastora]

Mastora; you were right dude, i tried to push the pickup with my finger and the feedback decreases a lot (more on the bridge pickup than on the neck). Any suggestion on the foam procedure (pickups and springs)

The trick is to keep the pickups tight in the cavity of the guitar. Get some foam and put it on the bottom of the pick up, and put it back in the guitar. You want the foam to take up the space between the bottom of the pick up and the cavity of the guitar. The rubber hose is only a few mm in diameter, roughly about the size of the inside diameter of the floyd springs. Push the rubber hose through the inside of all the floyd springs and cut the ends off. Make sure its a tight fit in the spring. I used vacuum hose from my local auto supply store. I used the foam that the pickups were packaged in. If you threw out the foam, then you at least you have an idea of the type of foam that I used and can buy some at a hardware store.
I hope this helped. When I did this, all my feed back was gone! I didn't think it was going to do anything but I figured I have nothing to lose.
Good luck and let us know if it worked cuz I'm curious too!